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Thread: Islamophobia in the West

  1. #221
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    PoinjtOfViewGun,

    It is not a sin to contend for the Scriptures. A woman is not allowed to teach a man about the Scriptures where there is a church gathering, the church being the body of Christ, Him the Head, man to follow and woman last in the lineage according to the order of creation. At death Christian men and women are accepted into heaven as one in the body of Christ. There is no marriage or sex according to Jesus so He should know being our Creator and our God. So again I ask the questions do muslim women enjoy virgin men as the men are supposed to do with virgin women?

  2. #222

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PoinjtOfViewGun,

    It is not a sin to contend for the Scriptures. A woman is not allowed to teach a man about the Scriptures where there is a church gathering, the church being the body of Christ, Him the Head, man to follow and woman last in the lineage according to the order of creation. At death Christian men and women are accepted into heaven as one in the body of Christ. There is no marriage or sex according to Jesus so He should know being our Creator and our God. So again I ask the questions do muslim women enjoy virgin men as the men are supposed to do with virgin women?
    So, you acknowledge that men and women are not equal in Christianity. Yet, you claimed earlier that Christianity is an example of where women have an equal say on men as men do on women. We see, enshrined in the example of women not being allowed to teach men, an example of that. Quran doesn't have that. It doesn't have that original sin concept. Men and women are created equal.

    Quran doesn't make any exclusive reward to men in heaven. The idea of men having 72 virgins for sexual pleasure doesn't exist in the Quran as well. Whatever men get in heaven, so will women.
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  3. #223

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    4:11, for example, concerns distribution of inheritance when the wealth of the deceased was no distributed through a will.
    [and]
    4:11 that you copy pasted there concerns the situation where a will was not written.
    Where does the verse say it is for a case in which there is no will?

  4. #224

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Where does the verse say it is for a case in which there is no will?
    The verse first lists the criteria on how to distribute the wealth then ends with all that would happen after the wills and debts are fulfilled. It's pretty straightforward. Debts first. Then execute the will. If anything is left then distribute them accordingly.
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  5. #225

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The verse first lists the criteria on how to distribute the wealth then ends with all that would happen after the wills and debts are fulfilled. It's pretty straightforward. Debts first. Then execute the will. If anything is left then distribute them accordingly.
    So, no quote from the verse provided saying this verse is for the case in which there is no will.

  6. #226

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    So, no quote from the verse provided saying this verse is for the case in which there is no will.
    It does. Quite explicitly. Why are you denying Googleable facts?
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  7. #227

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    It does. Quite explicitly. Why are you denying Googleable facts?
    Still no quote...

  8. #228
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    So, you acknowledge that men and women are not equal in Christianity. Yet, you claimed earlier that Christianity is an example of where women have an equal say on men as men do on women. We see, enshrined in the example of women not being allowed to teach men, an example of that. Quran doesn't have that. It doesn't have that original sin concept. Men and women are created equal.

    Quran doesn't make any exclusive reward to men in heaven. The idea of men having 72 virgins for sexual pleasure doesn't exist in the Quran as well. Whatever men get in heaven, so will women.
    PointOfViewGun,

    Only when it comes to the teaching of Scripture otherwise it can be said that all women are more important than men even Muslim women, why? Because God gave them the responsiblity of having offspring, having to bring them up, a role that men only play a part in. In a Christian home the woman can express herself quite freely just as she can outside of it. That is clearly not the case with Muslim women.

    Regarding heaven, I tell you that there is not one Muslim in heaven why? Because it is written that only those that are born again of the Spirit of God can enter. Muslims don't believe that nor do they believe that Jesus Christ is God. They don't even believe in original sin. The Ten Commandments mean nothing to them. 72 virgins, doesn't exist in the Koran, then why does it exist only in Muslim circles?

  9. #229

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    4:11, for example, concerns distribution of inheritance when the wealth of the deceased was no distributed through a will. First, Quran instructs to spread it equitably:
    2:180 It is decreed that when death approaches, you shall write a will for the benefit of the parents and relatives, equitably. This is a duty upon the righteous.
    Tafsir al-Jalalain:
    [2:180]
    Prescribed, made obligatory, for you, when any of you is approached by death, that is, [by] its causes, and leaves behind some good, material possessions, is to make testament (al-wasiyyatu is in the nominative because of kutiba, and is semantically connected to the particle idhā, ‘when’, if the latter is adverbial; but if this latter is conditional, then it [al-wasiyyatu] indicates the response; the response to the [conditional] particle in, ‘if’, is, in other words, [implied to be] fa’l-yūsi, ‘let him make testament’); in favour of his parents and kinsmen honourably, that is justly, not giving more than the allotted share of a third, nor preferring the richer person — an obligation (haqqan here emphasises the import of what has preceded) on those that fear, God (this verse has been abrogated by the ‘inheritance’ verse [āyat al-mīrāth, see Q. 4:11] and by the hadīth: ‘Do not make testament for one [already] inheriting’, as reported by al-Tirmidhī).

    Tafsir Ibn Abbas:
    [2:180]
    (It is prescribed for you, when death approacheth one of you, if he leave wealth, that he bequeath unto parents and near relatives) kinsfolk (in kindness) more so and even better to the parents. (A duty for all those who ward off (evil)) those who ascribe no partners to Allah; but this verse is abrogated by that on inheritance.

    Ibn Kathir:
    Including Parents and Relatives in the Will was later abrogated
    This Ayah contains the command to include parents and relatives in the will, which was obligatory, according to the most correct view, before the Ayah about inheritance was revealed. When the Ayah of inheritance was revealed, this Ayah was abrogated, so fixed shares of the inheritance for deserving recipients were legislated by Allah. Therefore, deserving inheritors take their fixed inheritance without the need to be included in the will or to be reminded of the favor of the inherited person. For this reason we see the Hadith narrated in the Sunan and other books that `Amr bin Kharijah said: I heard Allah's Messenger saying in a speech:
    (Allah has given each heir his fixed share. So there is no will for a deserving heir.)
    Imam Ahmad recorded that Muhammad bin Sirin said: Ibn `Abbas recited Surat Al-Baqarah (chapter 2 in the Qur'an) until he reached the Ayah:
    (...if he leaves wealth, that he makes a bequest to parents and next of kin.)
    He then said, "This Ayah was abrogated.'' This was recorded by Sa`id bin Mansur and Al-Hakim in his Mustadrak Al-Hakim Said, "It is Sahih according to their criteria (Al-Bukhari and Muslim)''. Ibn Abu Hatim reported that Ibn `Abbas said that Allah's statement:
    (a bequest to parents and next of kin)
    was abrogated by the Ayah:
    (There is a share for men and a share for women from what is left by parents and those nearest related, whether the property be small or large ـ a legal share.) (4:7)
    Ibn Abu Hatim then said, "It was reported from Ibn `Umar, Abu Musa, Sa`id bin Musayyib, Al-Hasan, Mujahid, `Ata' Sa`id bin Jubayr, Muhammad bin Sirin, `Ikrimah, Zayd bin Aslam and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas. Qatadah, As-Suddi, Muqatil bin Hayyan, Tawus, Ibrahim An-Nakha`i, Shurayh, Ad-Dahhak and Az-Zuhri said that this Ayah (2:180 above) was abrogated by the Ayah about the inheritors (4:7)."

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    If the males of the family is rich the women could have everything. 4:11 that you copy pasted there concerns the situation where a will was not written.
    Ibn Kathir:
    For this reason we see the Hadith narrated in the Sunan and other books that `Amr bin Kharijah said: I heard Allah's Messenger saying in a speech:
    (Allah has given each heir his fixed share. So there is no will for a deserving heir.)

    The Will (Wasiyyah) is for the discretionary portion of the estate.
    The discretionary portion is limited to 1/3rd of the estate:
    [4214] 7 - ( ... ) It was narrated
    from Mus'ab bin Sa'd that his
    father said: "The Prophet
    visited me (when I was sick) and
    I said: 'I will bequeath all my
    wealth.' He said: 'No.' I said:
    'Then one-half.' He said: 'No.' I
    said: 'One-third?' He said: 'Yes,
    but one-third is a lot."
    Sahih Muslim
    The discretionary portion can not be left to those covered under the inheritance law explicated in An-Nisa.
    (Among the Sunni, the Shia do allow it, but not more than a third).

    Chapter 6. What Has Been Related About Willing To An Heir
    2870. It was reported from Abu
    Umămah, that he said: "I heard
    the Messenger of Allah saying:
    'Allah has allotted to every rightful
    person what is due to him, so there
    is no willing to an heir." (Hasan)
    Sunan Abu Dawud
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Since Quran puts more weight on males as it puts the responsibility to look after the family, the women get less while carrying the need to care for their needs. Wills, however, precede this, as the same verse in a part where you left out in your copy past puts first priority on execution of the will.
    First priority is covering funeral expenses. Then debts and obligations. After that the will, which is limited to a third of the estate (unless the mandatory heirs agree otherwise). Fourth is distributing what remains to the heirs as per An-Nisa.


    These are the limits by Allah, whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger will be admitted by Him to gardens in Paradise under which rivers flow, abiding eternally therein; and that is the great attainment.
    And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger and transgresses His limits – He will put him into the Fire to abide eternally therein, and he will have a humiliating punishment.
    An-Nisa 13-14
    Last edited by Infidel144; October 25, 2020 at 04:17 PM.

  10. #230

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    First priority is covering funeral expenses. Then debts and obligations. After that the will, which is limited to a third of the estate (unless the mandatory heirs agree otherwise). Fourth is distributing what remains to the heirs as per An-Nisa.
    Lovely job of copy-paste. Do point out, however, which verse limits execution of the will to one third of the deceased person's wealth?
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  11. #231

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Lovely job of copy-paste.
    Thank you.
    Do point out, however, which verse limits execution of the will to one third of the deceased person's wealth?
    Verse? I don't recall saying anything about a "verse" for the 1/3rd limit.
    I have already quoted where the limit comes from, via Sahih Muslim (though it is multiply attested in various hadith collections, noted by the exegetes and present in the Shia tradition as well (e.g. see Khomeini's Tahrir v. 3)

  12. #232

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Thank you.
    Verse? I don't recall saying anything about a "verse" for the 1/3rd limit.
    I have already quoted where the limit comes from, via Sahih Muslim (though it is multiply attested in various hadith collections, noted by the exegetes and present in the Shia tradition as well (e.g. see Khomeini's Tahrir v. 3)
    So, you acknowledge that it doesn't exist in the Quran. Great. Then I guess you also found out the answer to your previous question yourself as well. Lovely.
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  13. #233

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    So, you acknowledge that it doesn't exist in the Quran. Great. Then I guess you also found out the answer to your previous question yourself as well. Lovely.
    That would be the question I asked (and statements I made) in response to you saying:
    "4:11, for example, concerns distribution of inheritance when the wealth of the deceased was no distributed through a will."

    "4:11 that you copy pasted there concerns the situation where a will was not written."

    And you even stated in response to me pointing out that you had not provided a quote stating it is for the case in which there is no will:
    "It does. Quite explicitly. Why are you denying Googleable facts?"

    When, in fact, the verse(s) in An Nisa supercedes the verse you were relying on to draw a contrast (2:180) and which you put preeminence in ("First, Quran instructs to spread it equitably") and is for cases both with and with out a will.

  14. #234

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    That would be the question I asked (and statements I made) in response to you saying:
    "4:11, for example, concerns distribution of inheritance when the wealth of the deceased was no distributed through a will."
    "4:11 that you copy pasted there concerns the situation where a will was not written."
    And you even stated in response to me pointing out that you had not provided a quote stating it is for the case in which there is no will:
    "It does. Quite explicitly. Why are you denying Googleable facts?"
    When, in fact, the verse(s) in An Nisa supercedes the verse you were relying on to draw a contrast (2:180) and which you put preeminence in ("First, Quran instructs to spread it equitably") and is for cases both with and with out a will.
    I was not relying on 2:180 though within this context. I merely pointed it out for highlighting equity. 4th chapter, being An-Nisa, doesn't really somehow invalidate that. What I relied on pointing out debts and wills came first was the 4:11 itself.
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  15. #235

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I was not relying on 2:180 though within this context. I merely pointed it out for highlighting equity. 4th chapter, being An-Nisa, doesn't really somehow invalidate that. What I relied on pointing out debts and wills came first was the 4:11 itself.
    You relied on 4:11 to point out debts and wills came first. Yet you said that 4:11 was for case when there was no will and gave precedence to 2:180.
    So, as I stated, 4:11+ is to be used with or without a will.

  16. #236

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    You relied on 4:11 to point out debts and wills came first. Yet you said that 4:11 was for case when there was no will and gave precedence to 2:180.
    So, as I stated, 4:11+ is to be used with or without a will.
    That's one way of agreeing with me. Thanks for acknowledging that Quran calls out for execution of debts and wills first.
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  17. #237
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    That's one way of agreeing with me. Thanks for acknowledging that Quran calls out for execution of debts and wills first.
    PointOfViewGun,

    Execution being the key word not just for wills and debts.

  18. #238

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    In contrast to Quran, the Bible only grants inheritance to a daughter if there is no son. Even in the case of no sons, the situation for daughters is not so apparent.
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  19. #239

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    In contrast to Quran, the Bible only grants inheritance to a daughter if there is no son. Even in the case of no sons, the situation for daughters is not so apparent.
    Whe

    When the Bible discusses inheritances, those discusses are applicable only to a particular place and time, ans unlike Islam, are not rukes that are expected followed by all believers for all time. The Quran's rule on inheritance have no context, unlike the Bible, and thus are binding for all Muslims for all time. In any case, where in the Bible does it specifically states daughters can only inherit if there are no sons?

    The Bible, unlike Islam, largely does not concern itself with civil matters, being more interested in moral principles than specifics. Christians understood from.the earlies times that specifics.in the Bible, such as circumcism, ans dietary regulations, wete not binding on all believers, bt given merely to specific people inna specific time and place. The animal sacricies called out by Bible.are no lnger practiced even by the Jews, since with the destruction of the temple such regulations were rendered obsolete.

    Because the Quran has no context in itself, and the Quran does not describe a time and place setting where a verse was given, the rules of the Quran become binding on all Muslims for all time. That is why the status and treatment of woman in the Muslim world overall is far inferior tonthr Christian world. By Islamic principles, women inherit less than their brothers, tha comes from the Quran itself. The Bible in contrast, does not dictate to is believers that women must inherit less than their brothers. Thr Biboe allows a daughter to be a sole heit and inherit everything, something the Quran and Islam does not allow.

    When you rely on the tradition sources (acceped by most Muslims). to provide context the Quran, the bigoty of Islam becomes more pronounced, reflecting a mdedieval mentality that goes against modern sensibilities. However enlightened thr attitudes might or might not have been in the 7th century AD, Islams and the Quran attitudes are hoelessly backwards and bigoted by today's standard.

    Even in the Old Testament, principles such as justice and mercy were more important than blindly following ritual. The New Testament also makes that clear.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; October 28, 2020 at 04:29 PM.

  20. #240

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    That's one way of agreeing with me. Thanks for acknowledging that Quran calls out for execution of debts and wills first.
    Weak attempt...
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    In contrast to Quran, the Bible only grants inheritance to a daughter if there is no son. Even in the case of no sons, the situation for daughters is not so apparent.
    Do tell what the "inheritance" is referring to.

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