Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations. Bahrain follows suit, as does Sudan.

[PointOfViewGun]

OK so I don't think you asked me a relevant question, just something about me being in a basement. I don't think Israel claims to be occupying the West Bank for the good of Palestinians but for the good of Israelis: thats their brief. Israelis have illegally occupied some bits privately (the settlements) and Israel offers them support, in other places its the Israeli military occupying strategically important points.

There's plenty of hypocrisy in Israeli politics (like ethically dubious deals with extremist political figures to win a majority in the Knesset) but no more than say in my country (and I imagine in yours). Its not Hell, its more or less a democracy and participative systems involve grubby deal making.

I didn't offer my opinion of Israel being better than its neighbours as an excuse, I offered it to query to why you're posting reams about Israel and not for example Saudi Arabia, a truly evil state in both theory and praxis, or, if thats OT, then maybe the UAE which is only marginally better.

My exposure to these two states (and I appreciate this seems partially anecdotal, but just to give you an impression of where I am coming from) I met an Australian businessman who was imprisoned in the UAE because a deal went south, a corrupt judge was found and he was stitched up. The Australian government had to exert diplomatic pressure to rescue him from what amounted to personal arbitrary injustice on the part of some rotten sheikh. Compare that with the saga of the Israeli alleged paedophile who has dragged extradition through the courts, got protection from political figures but is finally being sent back to Australia for trial. The difference is that in Israel there's the rule of law and membership of a politically important religious group offers some protection, but not complete freedom of action from which a non-member is lucky to escape alive.

The question was a simple question of principle. Would you be OK with someone trapping you in a basement because there are people out there who would rape you and kill you? You're using too many words to deflect from answering such a simple question.

[swabian]

It's astonishing how every thread involving Israel immediately turns into Israel bashing once the usual suspects show up. It's high time that all of this garbage is stuffed into a mocking thread like the others, why hasn't this happened yet?

Saying West Bank and East Jerusalem belongs to Palestinians is not a denial of Israeli's right to Israel. Sure, its a rejection of Greater Israel.

Annexation of the West Bank and especially East Jerusalem hardly constitutes a "Greater Israel". "Palestine" is a pseudo-national manifestation of Arab anti-semitism that wouldn't even try to be a country without the hated neighbour. That some jew-hating 3rd world countries and conspiracy theorists acknowledge Palestine doesn't mean squat. Israel isn't even interested in fusing with a hateful population that can't be integrated, so what are you even harping on about.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

It's astonishing how every thread involving Israel immediately turns into Israel bashing once the usual suspects show up. It's high time that all of this garbage is stuffed into a mocking thread like the others, why hasn't this happened yet?



Annexation of the West Bank and especially East Jerusalem hardly constitutes a "Greater Israel". "Palestine" is a pseudo-national manifestation of Arab anti-semitism that wouldn't even try to be a country without the hated neighbour. That some jew-hating 3rd world countries and conspiracy theorists acknowledge Palestine doesn't mean squat. Israel isn't even interested in fusing with a hateful population that can't be integrated, so what are you even harping on about.

Isn't it amazing how a thread about relations between countries A and B quickly devolves into a discussion about entity C?

[swabian]

Isn't it amazing how a thread about relations between countries A and B quickly devolves into a discussion about entity C?

That a complaint about a complaint? It's never merely some generic entity once Israel is involved. The deed is done, so now it's trench warfare, you know the drill.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

That a complaint about a complaint? It's never merely some generic entity once Israel is involved. The deed is done, so now it's trench warfare, you know the drill.

I wasn't complaining, I was agreeing.

[brave_warrior]

I really do hope so. However, I feel like there are so many tensions that one step forward can be eroded very fast. It's a very tricky situation and probably one of the most difficult conflicts to solve in the world.

[PointOfViewGun]

It's astonishing how every thread involving Israel immediately turns into Israel bashing once the usual suspects show up. It's high time that all of this garbage is stuffed into a mocking thread like the others, why hasn't this happened yet?

If it required me to be present in this thread to protest against someone stating that Israeli Arabs face no limitations compared to Israeli Jews? How unfortunate that you call something so basic as garbage...

Annexation of the West Bank and especially East Jerusalem hardly constitutes a "Greater Israel". "Palestine" is a pseudo-national manifestation of Arab anti-semitism that wouldn't even try to be a country without the hated neighbour. That some jew-hating 3rd world countries and conspiracy theorists acknowledge Palestine doesn't mean squat. Israel isn't even interested in fusing with a hateful population that can't be integrated, so what are you even harping on about.

Anything beyond the 1967 borders is greater Israel. Over a 100 states in the world recognizes Palestine with many 1st world countries included. None of that is an objection to Israel existing within the 1967 borders. The question of asking what is being harped on about should be directed at you, not me.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

If it required me to be present in this thread to protest against someone stating that Israeli Arabs face no limitations compared to Israeli Jews? How unfortunate that you call something so basic as garbage...

Yeah, it took you to derail the thread into another Israel-palestine thread when that wasn't the subject. Do feel free to reply to my post though.

Anything beyond the 1967 borders is greater Israel. Over a 100 states in the world recognizes Palestine with many 1st world countries included. None of that is an objection to Israel existing within the 1967 borders. The question of asking what is being harped on about should be directed at you, not me.

The borders you refer to were never borders, merely an armistice line.

[Papay]

Annexation of the West Bank and especially East Jerusalem hardly constitutes a "Greater Israel". "Palestine" is a pseudo-national manifestation of Arab anti-semitism that wouldn't even try to be a country without the hated neighbour. That some jew-hating 3rd world countries and conspiracy theorists acknowledge Palestine doesn't mean squat. Israel isn't even interested in fusing with a hateful population that can't be integrated, so what are you even harping on about.

Naah you have it completely wrong. Israel is a colonial invention, just like racist south Africa or french algeria. Mass immigration from outside and repression of the locals. But if you say the truth, you are considered antisemitic.

[Cyclops]

The question was a simple question of principle. Would you be OK with someone trapping you in a basement because there are people out there who would rape you and kill you? You're using too many words to deflect from answering such a simple question.

Its not a meaningful or relevant question in this context and I'm using a lot of words because you're an intelligent poster who is capable of discussing complicated subjects.

As you are an otherwise sensible poster I'll answer your question honestly and directly: maybe, it depends. Its really no relevant , there are no principles in state relations, might literally makes right and the rest is illusions to help us sleep and digest food.

So can I ask a question? Why the detailed examination of Israel and not UAE? Both countries are in the thread title, but only one of them enjoys rule of law as I would recognise it.

[Love Mountain]

Naah you have it completely wrong. Israel is a colonial invention, just like racist south Africa or french algeria. Mass immigration from outside and repression of the locals. But if you say the truth, you are considered antisemitic.

The Zionist project is a century old or older. At this point it's a country Israel state-hood is no longer under question. What's left is to determine what will be done with Palestinians. Clinging on to the grievances behind the founding of Israel is petty politics and doesn't benefit either the Jews or the Palestinians. It's about time politicians realized that.

[sumskilz]

Naah you have it completely wrong. Israel is a colonial invention, just like racist south Africa or french algeria. Mass immigration from outside and repression of the locals. But if you say the truth, you are considered antisemitic.

Antisemites do tend to subscribe to that simplistic narrative, but it's more ignorant than strictly antisemitic. Despite a considerable number of differences, the colonial project Israel most resembles is Liberia, but it's also an Ottoman successor state like so many others in the region. A considerable majority of Israelis trace some or all of their recent family roots back to somewhere in the Ottoman Empire during the Nineteenth Century, that is before the French, Italians, and British carved it up. The mandate could be described as a British colony, but Israel is no more a British invention than Lebanon is a French invention, and arguably less so.

[PointOfViewGun]

Its not a meaningful or relevant question in this context and I'm using a lot of words because you're an intelligent poster who is capable of discussing complicated subjects.
As you are an otherwise sensible poster I'll answer your question honestly and directly: maybe, it depends. Its really no relevant , there are no principles in state relations, might literally makes right and the rest is illusions to help us sleep and digest food.
So can I ask a question? Why the detailed examination of Israel and not UAE? Both countries are in the thread title, but only one of them enjoys rule of law as I would recognise it.

When vast majority of your words have nothing to do with addressing my post it has little to do with my intelligence. If your answer to the question I asked is "maybe", that you might be OK with getting trapped in a basement because there are others out there that get raped and killed I'm not confident we can get on the same page.

I have participated in two discussions in this thread. The initial one was about UAE's decision and I've criticized that from a UAE focused angle. Israel was hardly mentioned beyond being the other party to the decision. You didn't ask me then why I was focusing on UAE. Then I responded to nhytgbvfeco2's statement that Israeli Arabs were not facing any limitations compared to Israeli Jews. There wasn't much to include UAE there.

Why does criticism of Israel trigger people so much?

[Infidel144]

I have participated in two discussions in this thread. The initial one was about UAE's decision and I've criticized that from a UAE focused angle. Israel was hardly mentioned beyond being the other party to the decision.

Do you mean that one post where you said the UAE was bought (but have not been able to say what it was paid)?

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Naah you have it completely wrong. Israel is a colonial invention, just like racist south Africa or french algeria. Mass immigration from outside and repression of the locals. But if you say the truth, you are considered antisemitic.

While in and of itself this statement isn't anti-Semitic, it's people with stances like this one that are the problem and are why there will be no peace in the foreseeable future. Like it or not, Israel is a legitimate state and is here to stay. Deal with it.

[Gromovnik]

Papay's post is factually correct. He said nothing about Israel's right to exist.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Papay's post is factually correct. He said nothing about Israel's right to exist.

Calling it a colonial invention implies that it is illegitimate and has no right no exist.

[Cyclops]

When vast majority of your words have nothing to do with addressing my post it has little to do with my intelligence. If your answer to the question I asked is "maybe", that you might be OK with getting trapped in a basement because there are others out there that get raped and killed I'm not confident we can get on the same page.

I have participated in two discussions in this thread. The initial one was about UAE's decision and I've criticized that from a UAE focused angle. Israel was hardly mentioned beyond being the other party to the decision. You didn't ask me then why I was focusing on UAE. Then I responded to nhytgbvfeco2's statement that Israeli Arabs were not facing any limitations compared to Israeli Jews. There wasn't much to include UAE there.

Why does criticism of Israel trigger people so much?

Look fair enough, you're right I do get triggered by it, especially if the poster is worthwhile. There's a lot of ****posting that is frankly bigotry (not yours I am guessing).

I think Israeli Arabs are better treated than Arabs in most neighbouring countries, thats not a free pass for Israel to displace even more of them as they did when Israel was created.

I'm not in much of a position to criticise Israel for displacing Arabs to create a state as a homeland for Jews, as I am a citizen of a British State that exterminated many aboriginal groups and organised a pretty thorough genocidal apparatus to get the rest and is only slowly coming to terms with that. 1948 was a bad year as well as a good one, but not as bad as (for example) 1788, when my country "began".

Its very hard for Palestinian Arabs, but ha their status improved under Israel vs the status of ordinary Arabs in neighbouring countries? Under the Ottomans IIRC everyone was a slave, or a slave of a slave, and I don't think the British actually ameliorated that.

My fond hope would be my Palestinian relatives could go back to their home village to see their ancestors graves. If it was just Palestine and Israel at the table maybe it could happen. We have a lot of other fingers in the pie here. I think the UAE just pulled one finger out.

[PointOfViewGun]

Look fair enough, you're right I do get triggered by it, especially if the poster is worthwhile. There's a lot of ****posting that is frankly bigotry (not yours I am guessing).

I think Israeli Arabs are better treated than Arabs in most neighbouring countries, thats not a free pass for Israel to displace even more of them as they did when Israel was created.

I'm not in much of a position to criticise Israel for displacing Arabs to create a state as a homeland for Jews, as I am a citizen of a British State that exterminated many aboriginal groups and organised a pretty thorough genocidal apparatus to get the rest and is only slowly coming to terms with that. 1948 was a bad year as well as a good one, but not as bad as (for example) 1788, when my country "began".

Its very hard for Palestinian Arabs, but ha their status improved under Israel vs the status of ordinary Arabs in neighbouring countries? Under the Ottomans IIRC everyone was a slave, or a slave of a slave, and I don't think the British actually ameliorated that.

My fond hope would be my Palestinian relatives could go back to their home village to see their ancestors graves. If it was just Palestine and Israel at the table maybe it could happen. We have a lot of other fingers in the pie here. I think the UAE just pulled one finger out.

First and foremost you're a human being. Just because your country's past involves atrocities it doesn't mean you can't criticize others. Would you express the same opinion if you were to criticize Arabs displacing Jews. I doubt so.

It would be a gross misrepresentation to present everyone in the region as a slave back in Ottoman times. There are many degrees between having equal rights / being treated equally and being treated as slaves. Israeli Arabs may be closer to the former but that doesn't mean they face no limitations as nhytgbvfeco2 claimed and religiously argued. It shouldn't be such a problem to point that out.

The deal already cracked:

UAE said to scrap meet with Israel, US envoys after Netanyahu panned F-35 deal

The United Arab Emirates reportedly canceled a trilateral meeting with Israel and the US last week in retaliation against Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s public opposition to Washington’s brewing sale of F-35 fighter jets to Abu Dhabi.
A New York meeting of the three countries’ UN envoys celebrating the normalization of Israel-UAE ties had been scheduled for Friday, the Walla news site said in a report Monday.

[sumskilz]

The deal already cracked:

UAE said to scrap meet with Israel, US envoys after Netanyahu panned F-35 deal

Not really, Netanyahu just changed his story depending on who he was talking to (as usual), but the F-35 sale isn't some central part of the normalization, and neither the US nor the UAE have claimed otherwise:

The prime minister has denied that a prospective F-35 sale was part of the normalization agreement. Top US officials have conceded that they are in talks with Abu Dhabi regarding an arms deal and that the Israel-UAE deal makes such a sale more likely.

However, both Washington and Abu Dhabi have asserted that their respective negotiations began well before the normalization effort was launched.

Regardless, officials in the UAE involved in the matter had been under the impression that Netanyahu would avoid speaking out publicly against the deal, regardless of whether he opposed it privately, Walla reported.

Abu Dhabi was also displeased with the Israeli premier’s assertion that he had no knowledge of the deal and that he would act to oppose it — by raising the issue with members of Congress.

Countries with formal relations can still maneuver for advantage, and they're obviously trying to publicly hold Netanyahu accountable, but then these are the headlines from the next day:

First Israel-UAE commercial flight to take off Monday

Gantz, UAE counterpart discuss defense cooperation in first conversation

The UAE's relationship prior to normalization has supposedly been mostly with Mossad, not Netanyahu.