Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations. Bahrain follows suit, as does Sudan.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

I don’t believe Hafrada and Apartheid is a good comparison even though one word sprung from the other. I do think a word whose meaning can be defined as the state sponsored separation by what I am going to call race needs a word and Hafrada will do.

Hafrada is literally just the word "separation" in Hebrew, and I've never heard it used on its own like you are.

Also the separation is by nationality, not race. Arab Israelis are of the same race and don’t have any limitations.

[PointOfViewGun]

Hafrada is literally just the word "separation" in Hebrew, and I've never heard it used on its own like you are.

Also the separation is by nationality, not race. Arab Israelis are of the same race and don’t have any limitations.

It takes a lot of ignoring of the reality to make that statement.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

It takes a lot of ignoring of the reality to make that statement.

Do go on, don’t leave us hanging.

[wanderwegger]

Do go on, don’t leave us hanging.

I listed plenty. You gave reasons why such disparities exist that I don't agree with. But even if i did, such disparities are themselves a form of limitation.

[PointOfViewGun]

Do go on, don’t leave us hanging.

Aside from constant political siege they're enduring like the Jewish oath or the Israeli prime minister publicly and explicitly stating that Israel is not for its Arab Israelis, there is discrimination in almost all aspects of the state.

Declassified: Israel Made Sure Arabs Couldn't Return to Their Villages

Trove of archival documents reveals how Israel prevented Arabs from returning to villages they had left in 1948 – chiefly, by razing structures and planting dense forests

Discrimination Against Palestinian Arab Children in Israel's Schools

The Israeli government operates two separate school systems, one for Jewish children and one for Palestinian Arab children. Discrimination against Palestinian Arab children colors every aspect of the two systems. Education Ministry authorities have acknowledged that the ministry spends less per student in the Arab system than in the Jewish school system. The majority's schools also receive additional state and state-sponsored private funding for school construction and special programs through other government agencies. The gap is enormous–on every criterion measured by Israeli authorities.

There is amplitude amount of facts to make a statement like your quite ridiculous.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

I listed plenty. You gave reasons why such disparities exist that I don't agree with. But even if i did, such disparities are themselves a form of limitation.

Only one of the disparities you mentioned impacts Israeli-Arabs, and that's funding.

Aside from constant political siege they're enduring like the Jewish oath or the Israeli prime minister publicly and explicitly stating that Israel is not for its Arab Israelis, there is discrimination in almost all aspects of the state.

Can you quote Netanyahu saying that?

What Jewish oath?

Declassified: Israel Made Sure Arabs Couldn't Return to Their Villages

That's not Israeli-Arabs.

Discrimination Against Palestinian Arab Children in Israel's Schools


There is amplitude amount of facts to make a statement like your quite ridiculous.

Couldn't find something more recent than 2001? There have been substantial reforms since in many of the things the article touches on, including numbers of teachers in kindergartens and number of students per classroom.
They don't have to go to those schools, they can go to regular ones. The ultra-orthodox also have separate schools (which the report lies about saying that there are only 2 kinds), this is something that they want to preserve their history, language etc and be taught in Arabic rather than Hebrew.
The report lumps a lot of different groups together where convenient, such as calling Bedouins palestinians for the purpose of later claiming that the government is trying to get palestinians to move out, which isn't accurate. It's trying to get Bedouins living a nomadic lifestyle to become sedentary for the purpose of providing infrastructure etc, which is near impossible to do if they keep migrating around.
Most of the raw data provided shows rather minor differences as well (except for kindergartens), and a lot of the differences mentioned are also equally noticeable when comparing schools in the greater Tel-Aviv area to those in the periphery. As someone who lives in the periphery I've never heard of a school having a theatre, which the article casually states as if it is a normal thing to have in schools.

[Cyclops]

Do go on, don’t leave us hanging.

Look AFAIK there are a couple. The first one is purely symbolic but I don't like it at all. Last year (or was it 2018? recently anyway) Hebrew was elevated above Arabic as official language whereas previously they enjoyed the same status. IIRC there's no substantive change (Arabic is still mandated in official documentation etc), but it is a change to basic law to promote one ethnic identifier over another.

It was sop to some silly right wing group, not a devious plot to introduce apartheid. I still think it sucks balls.

The other one is the citizenship for any Jewish person. Its not done for other religious/ethnic groups. That law for all its unfairness has my 100% support. There was an actual operation to exterminate all Jews, so creating a safe haven (more or less, I mean watch out, they have smartarse US archaeology dudes living there ) is a worthwhile project. Positive discrimination is only justified in extreme cases, this one qualifies.

Otherwise I think Israel is a pretty fair state, no more corrupt or evil than my country and a lot better than pretty much the rest of its neighbourhood.

[PointOfViewGun]

Can you quote Netanyahu saying that?

'Racist' Netanyahu remarks draw ire of Israelis, Americans and Wonder Woman

The Israeli premier has kicked up a social media storm after posting incendiary remarks on Sunday saying that his country is a state only for Jews, not all citizens, sparking widespread reactions online.

“Israel is not a state for all its citizens. According to a basic law we passed, Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people and the Jewish people only.”

What Jewish oath?

Israel's Netanyahu backs Jewish loyalty oath

Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu has re-introduced a proposal to require any non-Jew taking Israeli citizenship to swear allegiance to Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state".

That's not Israeli-Arabs.

It is. Many Arab Israelis can not return to their own property that fall within Israel.

Israel: Discriminatory Land Policies Hem in Palestinians

The Israeli government’s policy of boxing in Palestinian communities extends beyond the West Bank and Gaza to Palestinian towns and villages inside Israel, Human Rights Watch said today. The policy discriminates against Palestinian citizens of Israel and in favor of Jewish citizens, sharply restricting Palestinians’ access to land for housing to accommodate natural population growth.

Decades of land confiscations and discriminatory planning policies have confined many Palestinian citizens to densely populated towns and villages that have little room to expand. Meanwhile, the Israeli government nurtures the growth and expansion of neighboring predominantly Jewish communities, many built on the ruins of Palestinian villages destroyed in 1948. Many small Jewish towns also have admissions committees that effectively bar Palestinians from living there.

Land policies in more recent years have not only failed to reverse the earlier land seizures, but in many cases further restricted the land available for residential growth. Since 1948, the government has authorized the creation of more than 900 “Jewish localities” in Israel, but none for Palestinians except for a handful of government-planned townships and villages in the Negev and Galilee, created largely to concentrate previously dispersed Bedouin communities.

Fight for Israel's lost Arab villages

In 1948 hundreds of Arab villages in what is now Israel were abandoned as their residents fled the fighting.

Only one, Lifta, remains empty, and former residents are fighting plans to transform the village into a luxury development and tourist destination.

Couldn't find something more recent than 2001? There have been substantial reforms since in many of the things the article touches on, including numbers of teachers in kindergartens and number of students per classroom.
They don't have to go to those schools, they can go to regular ones. The ultra-orthodox also have separate schools (which the report lies about saying that there are only 2 kinds), this is something that they want to preserve their history, language etc and be taught in Arabic rather than Hebrew.
The report lumps a lot of different groups together where convenient, such as calling Bedouins palestinians for the purpose of later claiming that the government is trying to get palestinians to move out, which isn't accurate. It's trying to get Bedouins living a nomadic lifestyle to become sedentary for the purpose of providing infrastructure etc, which is near impossible to do if they keep migrating around.
Most of the raw data provided shows rather minor differences as well (except for kindergartens), and a lot of the differences mentioned are also equally noticeable when comparing schools in the greater Tel-Aviv area to those in the periphery. As someone who lives in the periphery I've never heard of a school having a theatre, which the article casually states as if it is a normal thing to have in schools.

Not much seems to have changed since then.

Arab Students in Jerusalem Get Less Than Half the Funding of Jewish Counterparts
For Jews and Arabs, Israel’s School System Remains Separate and Unequal

[nhytgbvfeco2]

'Racist' Netanyahu remarks draw ire of Israelis, Americans and Wonder Woman

So not what you claim he said. Gotcha. Do I really have to explain what state of all its citizens means in Hebrew for the 20th time? A "state of all its citizens" is a state that is not a nation state. By saying "Israel is not a state of all its citizens" he means that it is a nation state, not exactly news. Here, I'll post the Hebrew wikipedia article translated into English via google translate:
"The state of all its citizens is a nickname for a state that is not a nation-state, whose political identity is detached from ethnic symbols and among other things that its immigration laws and citizenship do not favor citizens whose origin (by examining their ethnic affiliation) is nationally related to that state. The United States, and Canada as an example, are the states of all their citizens, since immigration policy does not give preference to those of a particular nationality. Countries like the UK are nation states, as descendants of citizens of those countries are entitled to priority in immigration to them."

Israel's Netanyahu backs Jewish loyalty oath

So not something that currently exists. Cool.

It is. Many Arab Israelis can not return to their own property that fall within Israel.

Examples? If it was in the Haaretz article then I apologise but I'm not spending my money on that propaganda website to remove the paywall.

Israel: Discriminatory Land Policies Hem in Palestinians

I mean, they can easily move to any other city. Only small communities have admissions committees, Arab communities can use those just as well to stop Jews from moving in.

Not much seems to have changed since then.

Arab Students in Jerusalem Get Less Than Half the Funding of Jewish Counterparts
For Jews and Arabs, Israel’s School System Remains Separate and Unequal

Paywall.

Look AFAIK there are a couple. The first one is purely symbolic but I don't like it at all. Last year (or was it 2018? recently anyway) Hebrew was elevated above Arabic as official language whereas previously they enjoyed the same status. IIRC there's no substantive change (Arabic is still mandated in official documentation etc), but it is a change to basic law to promote one ethnic identifier over another.

It was sop to some silly right wing group, not a devious plot to introduce apartheid. I still think it sucks balls.

The other one is the citizenship for any Jewish person. Its not done for other religious/ethnic groups. That law for all its unfairness has my 100% support. There was an actual operation to exterminate all Jews, so creating a safe haven (more or less, I mean watch out, they have smartarse US archaeology dudes living there ) is a worthwhile project. Positive discrimination is only justified in extreme cases, this one qualifies.

Otherwise I think Israel is a pretty fair state, no more corrupt or evil than my country and a lot better than pretty much the rest of its neighbourhood.

Well, Israel is far from the only country with only one official language despite large minorities. France comes to mind where Occitan was never given official status despite the fact that virtually all Occitans live in France, save for some border areas of Spain and Italy. While I too don't think Arabic should have been demoted, it's not exactly discriminatory. Purely symbolic, as you've mentioned, with no practical changes.
All nation states have similar criteria for citizenship, it's part of what defines a nation state.

[PointOfViewGun]

So not what you claim he said. Gotcha. Do I really have to explain what state of all its citizens means in Hebrew for the 20th time? A "state of all its citizens" is a state that is not a nation state. By saying "Israel is not a state of all its citizens" he means that it is a nation state, not exactly news. Here, I'll post the Hebrew wikipedia article translated into English via google translate:
"The state of all its citizens is a nickname for a state that is not a nation-state, whose political identity is detached from ethnic symbols and among other things that its immigration laws and citizenship do not favor citizens whose origin (by examining their ethnic affiliation) is nationally related to that state. The United States, and Canada as an example, are the states of all their citizens, since immigration policy does not give preference to those of a particular nationality. Countries like the UK are nation states, as descendants of citizens of those countries are entitled to priority in immigration to them."

It is what I said he said. Natenyahu is literally saying that Israel is only for Jews and you're trying to twist that. Amazing.

So not something that currently exists. Cool.

Certainly not due to the lack of effort from the Israeli government.

Examples? If it was in the Haaretz article then I apologise but I'm not spending my money on that propaganda website to remove the paywall.

You didn't need to look at the Haaretz article as I linked to a BBC report on the village of Lifta. The reason Lifta is named is because its the last remaining empty village belonging to Arabs, yet Israeli Arabs that owned houses in that village can not get back their property. Meanwhile, all other villages were already destroyed by the state or given to Jewish settlers.

I mean, they can easily move to any other city. Only small communities have admissions committees, Arab communities can use those just as well to stop Jews from moving in.

That's not the extent of the report and its a quite pathetic excuse meant to bar Arabs from living in more developed regions of Israel.

Paywall.

Can you tell us Arab students receive the same amount of funding from the government compared to Jewish students?

[Common Soldier]

I can't help but thinking had this deal besn achieved under Obama it would have widely lauded and praised by there very same people who are downplaying it and dismissing it under now. Most of this. portraying as a no big deal achievement is solely due it being achieved by Trump.

The Left hates Trump so much that if Trump embraced climate change, the Left probably would suddenly do an about faced on and be against it. If Arab governments start embracing Israel., Israel won't feel embattled and be willing to cut the Pamestinianz more slack. Without a blank check from other Arab countries to empower them, the Palestinians could be less intransigent and more willing to compromise and accept term Israel could live with

[PointOfViewGun]

I can't help but thinking had this deal besn achieved under Obama it would have widely lauded and praised by there very same people who are downplaying it and dismissing it under now. Most of this. portraying as a no big deal achievement is solely due it being achieved by Trump.

The Left hates Trump so much that if Trump embraced climate change, the Left probably would suddenly do an about faced on and be against it. If Arab governments start embracing Israel., Israel won't feel embattled and be willing to cut the Pamestinianz more slack. Without a blank check from other Arab countries to empower them, the Palestinians could be less intransigent and more willing to compromise and accept term Israel could live with

Nope. That's just your attempt to create a position you can argue against. Without Israel recognizing Palestine, or without Israel taking back settlers, or without giving control of East Jerusalem to Palestine, without any tangible move from Israel, it doesn't matter whether it was done under Obama or Trump.

I love this line of thinking though. Any criticism, even if it is directed at other countries, are attempted to be dismissed by a defense of Trump. Then they come and say that we're making everything about Trump...

[Tureuki]

Why everyone acts like USA has achieved this? I think neither USA or Israel took active part in this, current Emirati leadership, and the new Saudi guy too simply have different mindsets, it was clear for a while that they were the opposite of conservative and were going to take radical steps, they were not convinced by some other political entity. Their current bickering with Turkey also played a role i think, they would ally with Jesus himself if he helped them againts Turkey. Sure as hell this isn't merely an act of goodwill, it has political agenda behind it.

[Papay]

Netanyahu has failed and must go. No matter how much you advertise some isolated treaties here and there, fact remains that he is trapped by the fact that far right presses him into not making any kind of necessary concession towards the Palestinians. Instead of dismantling some of the illegal settlements in the west bank and withdrawing from areas that Israel says doesnt want to annex, he builds more and more ruining any chance of peace.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

It is what I said he said. Natenyahu is literally saying that Israel is only for Jews and you're trying to twist that. Amazing.

You said that Netanyahu stated that Israel isn't for its Arab-citizens.
You've quoted Netanyahu saying that Israel is not a "state of all its citizens"
I've explained the meaning of the term "state of all its citizens", providing you with a source for said meaning.
I'm not the one twisting things here, you are.

Certainly not due to the lack of effort from the Israeli government.

Had there been sufficient effort the government would surely have passed the law.

You didn't need to look at the Haaretz article as I linked to a BBC report on the village of Lifta. The reason Lifta is named is because its the last remaining empty village belonging to Arabs, yet Israeli Arabs that owned houses in that village can not get back their property. Meanwhile, all other villages were already destroyed by the state or given to Jewish settlers.

Lifta has actually been a regional nature reserve since 1980, and a national one since 2017. Additionally, as I stated, the man in the video is not an Israeli-Arab, he's from east Jerusalem.

That's not the extent of the report and its a quite pathetic excuse meant to bar Arabs from living in more developed regions of Israel.

There's nothing barring Arabs from living in more developed regions of Israel.

Can you tell us Arab students receive the same amount of funding from the government compared to Jewish students?

No, but this is oversimplifying things. Arabs can also go to these "Jewish" schools, and there are differences in funding depending on where the schools are located: the greater Tel-Aviv area vs everything else, settlements vs non settlements, etc. As I've said before Israeli politics are full of sectarian parties, each trying to increase the funding for the group that they represent. With the Arab parties continuously refusing to join coalitions they cannot fight for their interests.

Netanyahu has failed and must go. No matter how much you advertise some isolated treaties here and there, fact remains that he is trapped by the fact that far right presses him into not making any kind of necessary concession towards the Palestinians. Instead of dismantling some of the illegal settlements in the west bank and withdrawing from areas that Israel says doesnt want to annex, he builds more and more ruining any chance of peace.

What "far-right" is pressing him? Which party in the coalition are you calling far-right?

[Papay]

What "far-right" is pressing him? Which party in the coalition are you calling far-right?

I mean his voters. Honestly how many Israelis would accept the annexation of Jerusalem and losing the rest of the west bank?

[PointOfViewGun]

You said that Netanyahu stated that Israel isn't for its Arab-citizens.
You've quoted Netanyahu saying that Israel is not a "state of all its citizens"
I've explained the meaning of the term "state of all its citizens", providing you with a source for said meaning.
I'm not the one twisting things here, you are.

Sigh... I quoted Natenyahu saying that Israel is not for its Arab citizens.

Had there been sufficient effort the government would surely have passed the law.

The prime minister supported it. The cabinet approved it. The bill didn't clear the Knesset despite having 47% support...

Lifta has actually been a regional nature reserve since 1980, and a national one since 2017. Additionally, as I stated, the man in the video is not an Israeli-Arab, he's from east Jerusalem.

Yes, Arabs have been barred from entering their village since 1948, not 1980.

There's nothing barring Arabs from living in more developed regions of Israel.

What an ignorant thing to argue in the face all that you could have red. Amazing.

No, but this is oversimplifying things. Arabs can also go to these "Jewish" schools, and there are differences in funding depending on where the schools are located: the greater Tel-Aviv area vs everything else, settlements vs non settlements, etc. As I've said before Israeli politics are full of sectarian parties, each trying to increase the funding for the group that they represent. With the Arab parties continuously refusing to join coalitions they cannot fight for their interests.

Amazing excuses.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Sigh... I quoted Natenyahu saying that Israel is not for its Arab citizens.

No, you haven't. You've quoted him saying that Israel is not a state of all its citizens. A term I've explained.

The prime minister supported it. The cabinet approved it. The bill didn't clear the Knesset despite having 47% support...

So you're complaining about something that failed to pass the Knesset?

Yes, Arabs have been barred from entering their village since 1948, not 1980.

The village was inhabited since 1948 as a refugee camp, like I've just mentioned. However the man in the video is not Israeli-Arab.

What an ignorant thing to argue in the face all that you could have red. Amazing.

Ok, what stops an Arab from moving to, say, Tel-Aviv? Nothing.

Amazing excuses.

Sure. Allow me to provide evidence that the situation has improved since the date of the report you provided by referring to the OECD report:
"Programmes were implemented in 2014/15 to support underperforming and disadvantaged students(particularly new immigrants, Arab-speaking minorities and students of low socio-economic status). These includedan increase in allocation of special care hours for the disadvantaged population in primary and lower secondaryschool."
"A project for establishing One-Stop-Centres (2012, והכשרה תעסוקה מרכז (aims to increase access to VET andemployment in the Arab and Jewish-ultra-orthodox communities. The government has opened 20 centres in townswith a high density of Arab and ultra-orthodox population to attract local population and increase participation in thelabour market and in VET."
"Several programmes have been implemented to reduce inequalities among the different population minoritiesat primary and secondary level. For example, in a five-year programme (2007-11) to reduce class size by building8 000 new classrooms, 3 120 new classrooms were designated for the Arab stream. Also, a five-year plan for theArab, Druze and Bedouin schools (2008-11) provided additional resources for teaching and infrastructure, as well asfor reform to curricula and instruction to Arab and other minorities."

And that's a 2016 report which predates further improvements in those fields.

I mean his voters. Honestly how many Israelis would accept the annexation of Jerusalem and losing the rest of the west bank?

Jerusalem was annexed quite a while ago.
Most would be fine with losing most of Judea&Samaria after some land swaps.

[PointOfViewGun]

No, you haven't. You've quoted him saying that Israel is not a state of all its citizens. A term I've explained.

Yeah, I have:

“Israel is not a state for all its citizens. According to a basic law we passed, Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people and the Jewish people only.”

So you're complaining about something that failed to pass the Knesset?

Pretty much. I'm complaining about a bill that was supported by the Israeli prime minister, cabinet, and only failed to clear the Knesset by a few votes. People complain about such things all the time. It seems to be a problem only when its against Israel.

The village was inhabited since 1948 as a refugee camp, like I've just mentioned. However the man in the video is not Israeli-Arab.

Nope. Why are you lying about something so simple?

Legal battle over an abandoned Palestinian village

Its 3,000 residents were forced out or fled in fighting that erupted before the creation of Israel in 1948, which Palestinians view as the "nakba" or catastrophe. They were not allowed to move back.
Now former inhabitants are fighting a legal battle to stop plans to turn the abandoned Palestinian village into a luxury housing project.

Lifta's inhabitants were among an estimated 700,000 Palestinians who fled their homes during Israel's war of independence.
While some former Palestinian towns and villages in what is now Israel have been destroyed, redeveloped or taken over, Lifta is empty and largely intact.

The Israel Land Authority, now the legal owner of the site, wants to sell plots to developers so they can build new upmarket houses, making use of existing buildings.
It is an idea that has been approved by the Jerusalem municipality. In city hall there is a model of the proposed project.

Ok, what stops an Arab from moving to, say, Tel-Aviv? Nothing.

Money. They have been forcefully confined to underdeveloped villages but you expect them to have the money to move to an expensive city like Tel Aviv? This is a shameful conversation to have with absolutely no regard for human beings and human rights.

Sure. Allow me to provide evidence that the situation has improved since the date of the report you provided by referring to the OECD report:
"Programmes were implemented in 2014/15 to support underperforming and disadvantaged students(particularly new immigrants, Arab-speaking minorities and students of low socio-economic status). These includedan increase in allocation of special care hours for the disadvantaged population in primary and lower secondaryschool."
"A project for establishing One-Stop-Centres (2012, והכשרה תעסוקה מרכז (aims to increase access to VET andemployment in the Arab and Jewish-ultra-orthodox communities. The government has opened 20 centres in townswith a high density of Arab and ultra-orthodox population to attract local population and increase participation in thelabour market and in VET."
"Several programmes have been implemented to reduce inequalities among the different population minoritiesat primary and secondary level. For example, in a five-year programme (2007-11) to reduce class size by building8 000 new classrooms, 3 120 new classrooms were designated for the Arab stream. Also, a five-year plan for theArab, Druze and Bedouin schools (2008-11) provided additional resources for teaching and infrastructure, as well asfor reform to curricula and instruction to Arab and other minorities."

And that's a 2016 report which predates further improvements in those fields.

Let me know when your link actually works. Till then I'll stick to your admission that Arab students are not receiving the same amount of funding as Jewish students.

You're defending practices here that you wouldn't stand for if you were subjected to them.

[Gromovnik]

Netanyahu's words were pretty explicit in this case.