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Thread: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations. Bahrain follows suit, as does Sudan.

  1. #141

    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Antisemites do tend to subscribe to that simplistic narrative, but it's more ignorant than strictly antisemitic. Despite a considerable number of differences, the colonial project Israel most resembles is Liberia, but it's also an Ottoman successor state like so many others in the region. A considerable majority of Israelis trace some or all of their recent family roots back to somewhere in the Ottoman Empire during the Nineteenth Century, that is before the French, Italians, and British carved it up. The mandate could be described as a British colony, but Israel is no more a British invention than Lebanon is a French invention, and arguably less so.
    To be fair, I expect a lot of those "Ottoman descendants" are Mizrahi who immigrated after Israel was established, not before. The Law of Return is controversial for such reasons. All your other notes are pertinent, but I fear any more scrutiny on this subject is pointless. The outstanding issue is the contemporary stateless nature of the West Bank and Palestinians under Israeli control. Any references that go further back than say... 40-50 years, are irredentism or fringe justifications because the claimants cannot find a substantive one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Look fair enough, you're right I do get triggered by it, especially if the poster is worthwhile. There's a lot of ****posting that is frankly bigotry (not yours I am guessing).

    I think Israeli Arabs are better treated than Arabs in most neighbouring countries, thats not a free pass for Israel to displace even more of them as they did when Israel was created.

    I'm not in much of a position to criticise Israel for displacing Arabs to create a state as a homeland for Jews, as I am a citizen of a British State that exterminated many aboriginal groups and organised a pretty thorough genocidal apparatus to get the rest and is only slowly coming to terms with that. 1948 was a bad year as well as a good one, but not as bad as (for example) 1788, when my country "began".

    Its very hard for Palestinian Arabs, but ha their status improved under Israel vs the status of ordinary Arabs in neighbouring countries? Under the Ottomans IIRC everyone was a slave, or a slave of a slave, and I don't think the British actually ameliorated that.

    My fond hope would be my Palestinian relatives could go back to their home village to see their ancestors graves. If it was just Palestine and Israel at the table maybe it could happen. We have a lot of other fingers in the pie here. I think the UAE just pulled one finger out.
    That's not how I would describe the situation under Ottomans, but I don't think it's relevant anyway. There is obvious racism against Arab Israelis, but considering their neighbors, the tensions, right-wing rule of several decades, Arabs still have representation, basic rights, and aren't subject to an ethnic cleansing. One could make comparisons to African Americans, but the historical and cultural contexts are obviously very different. Yeah Israel gets some kudos, as many kudos as you can give for being a " human being that does the bare minimum to avoid violating civil rights in an overt way".

    If some Israelis consider that a high bar because "what about other countries", then whatever. I'm not particularly impressed.

    The larger issue is the slow annexation of Palestinian territory, the fact that Palestine is essentially run by UNRWA, while being subject to martial law executed by Israel, with no real leadership existing. And Israel is perfectly fine with letting this absurdity happening because it suits the political agenda of major parties.

  2. #142
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations

    In what is perhaps another sign of things to come Saudi Arabia will for the first time allow Israeli aircraft to fly over it.

  3. #143
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations

    More fantastic news as the question I posed in the OP has been answered: Yes! For today another major breakthrough has been made: Israel and Bahrain will normalise relations!
    This is yet another diplomatic achievement for Trump and Netanyahu, as the number of Arab countries recognising Israel has doubled over the course of the month, not to mention the deal where Kosovo and Israel both recognise each other and both Kosovo and Serbia will make embassies in Jerusalem.
    Last edited by nhytgbvfeco2; September 11, 2020 at 02:03 PM.

  4. #144
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    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations

    Yeah Trump! The President that is finally bringing peace to the Middle East!

  5. #145

    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations

    So, how did he do it?
    The Armenian Issue
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  6. #146
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    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    So, how did he do it?
    I'm guessing he picked the right person to help the parties negotiate and didn't scotch the negotiations with stupid blunders. Well done Trump, a significant win.

    ...but wait, there's more...

    https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/tr...reement-641961
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  7. #147
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    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I'm guessing he picked the right person to help the parties negotiate and didn't scotch the negotiations with stupid blunders. Well done Trump, a significant win.

    ...but wait, there's more...

    https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/tr...reement-641961
    Yeah, I've already mentioned this deal a couple posts ago. Guess I'll update the title

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    So, how did he do it?
    Used his magic wand.

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations, Bahrain follows suit.

    Mate I'm conceding that through gritted teeth, I think Trump has the score on the board as a certified incompetent, but this is the opposite. This is a great surprise, its a sign I guess of the world turning for Israel and its neighbours and makes me think other pragmatic and realistic developments are possible.

    Even if Trump is a one term president he can put on his gravestone "Did better than Hilary".
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  9. #149
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations. Bahrain follows suit, as does Sudan.


  10. #150
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    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations. Bahrain follows suit, as does Sudan.

    Well too bad that the Palestinians will continue to be in the west bank

  11. #151
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    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations. Bahrain follows suit, as does Sudan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Well too bad that the Palestinians will continue to be in the west bank
    And..?

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    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations. Bahrain follows suit, as does Sudan.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    And..?
    Both Netanyahu and Trump have failed completely on the issue of Israel-Palestinian peace. So Trump tries to delude the public about the importance of these deals. Israelis on the other hand are quite content into ignoring the Palestinians but, unfortunatelly for them, they dont go away. Netanyuahu must go away because he has failed to deliver peace under good for Israel circumstances. Instead he is building more settlements making the inevitable withrdawal from portions of west bank even more difficult for the prime minister why will do it. The other two alternatives are aparthaid(that exists currently)or annexation and voting permits for the Palestinians, something that its apalling for the overwhelming majority of the Jews who think that god gave that the land of Israel

  13. #153
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations. Bahrain follows suit, as does Sudan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Both Netanyahu and Trump have failed completely on the issue of Israel-Palestinian peace. So Trump tries to delude the public about the importance of these deals. Israelis on the other hand are quite content into ignoring the Palestinians but, unfortunatelly for them, they dont go away. Netanyuahu must go away because he has failed to deliver peace under good for Israel circumstances. Instead he is building more settlements making the inevitable withrdawal from portions of west bank even more difficult for the prime minister why will do it.
    The failure is not due to them, and they've made very good progress by shattering the image of "Arab unity" that gave the palestinians the false impression that if they just entrench themselves in their position and wait long enough eventually Israel would capitulate to their demands because it wants to normalise ties with the Arab world. But woe and behold, Israel is normalising ties with the Arab world at a steady pace and the palestinians lost their only bargaining chip because they've refused every offer given to them and somehow have not yet realised that the longer they wait the worse (from their perspective) the offers get.
    Netanyahu isn't the issue, no party (save for the Joint List which has no realistic path to leadership) would accept the terms that the palestinian leadership has set. If they want muh occupation to end they will need to come to terms with that, because the Arab world is done waiting for them.

    The other two alternatives are aparthaid(that exists currently)or annexation and voting permits for the Palestinians, something that its apalling for the overwhelming majority of the Jews who think that god gave that the land of Israel
    There is no apartheid.
    The alternative is to wait for a change in leadership in the PA and to hope that they would be more reasonable than their current leaders. Until that day comes the status quo will continue.

  14. #154

    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations. Bahrain follows suit, as does Sudan.

    Reasonable how? What is israel willing to offer them?
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  15. #155
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations. Bahrain follows suit, as does Sudan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    Reasonable how? What is israel willing to offer them?
    Independence, compensation for territory that Israel would get, a road to Gaza, economic investment and co-operation. What are the palestinians offering? Nothing.

  16. #156

    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations. Bahrain follows suit, as does Sudan.

    Israel proposes one thing, does an other.
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  17. #157
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    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations. Bahrain follows suit, as does Sudan.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Israel proposes one thing, does an other.
    ..Because they didnít accept the proposal?
    If I offer you a cookie and you say no and then I eat it you donít get to complain that I ate it.

  18. #158

    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations. Bahrain follows suit, as does Sudan.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    ..Because they didn’t accept the proposal?
    If I offer you a cookie and you say no and then I eat it you don’t get to complain that I ate it.
    I certainly hope people in power do not think international relations is akin to giving each other cookies... Not everything is dependent on accepting a proposal. Halting settlement build up in West Bank is not. Recognizing Palestine is not. Not making sure different Palestinian factions fight each other is not. So on and on.
    The Armenian Issue
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  19. #159
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations. Bahrain follows suit, as does Sudan.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I certainly hope people in power do not think international relations is akin to giving each other cookies... Not everything is dependent on accepting a proposal. Halting settlement build up in West Bank is not. Recognizing Palestine is not. Not making sure different Palestinian factions fight each other is not. So on and on.
    Settlements had already been frozen in the past, surprisingly that didn't lead instantly to peace and sunshine and rainbows. It's almost like the settlements are an excuse that the PA uses to avoid entering negotiations rather than an actual problem.
    Recognition will be part of the peace deal.
    Ultimately, it's entirely in their hands. Israel has again and again offered deals to the PA and time after time they refused.

  20. #160

    Default Re: Israel and UAE announce normalisation of relations. Bahrain follows suit, as does Sudan.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Settlements had already been frozen in the past, surprisingly that didn't lead instantly to peace and sunshine and rainbows. It's almost like the settlements are an excuse that the PA uses to avoid entering negotiations rather than an actual problem.
    Recognition will be part of the peace deal.
    Ultimately, it's entirely in their hands. Israel has again and again offered deals to the PA and time after time they refused.
    There was never a serious move regarding settlements. For decades, settlements in West Bank continued to be built and their population continued to rise. Making recognition part of a deal makes no sense. It's pedantic. Just because Israel might have made a bunch of proposals doesn't mean they were sensible. If they were serious about peace they wouldn't have meddled in Palestinian politics in favor of Hamas against Fatah. They wouldn't have allowed Jewish settlements in West Bank. The fact of the matter is, Israel enjoys having no peace. It lets them enable more land grab through more settlers.
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

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