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Thread: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

  1. #1
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    Yesterday the Royal Household published a letter of former king Juan Carlos to his son and successor, Philip VI, where the former ruler revealed his intention to leave Spain for an unkown destination (newspapers speculate that he moved to the Dominican Republic). Juan Carlos was generally viewed positively by the Spanish public, until several controversies broke out, during the last decade of his reign. He was pictured alongside a dead elephant, during a safari hunt in Botswana, while his daughter, Infanta Cristina, and her husband were implicated in a serious embezzlement scandal, where several millions of public funds were pocketed. Consequently, Juan Carlos abdicated, in favour of his son, Philip VI, but in 2018, a new scandal broke out.

    The press leaked a conversation between a corrupt police officer and Corinna zu Sayn-Wittgenstein (nice German nobility title, Corinna has aimed very aristocratically at her romantic matches), Juan Carlos' mistress. There, Corinna revealed that her lover entrusted her to safeguard in bank accounts in Switzerland approximately 64 million euros, the content of a commission given by the Saudi Arabian authorities to the Spanish monarch, as a part of an extremely lucrative deal, concerning the high-speed railway line that connected Medina with Mecca (the several billions-worth contract was credited to a party Spanish consortium). Obviously, the content of the conversation raises several questions regarding corruption and tax evasion. Two months ago, the Supreme Court decided to launch an investigation against Juan Carlos, who was no more protected by his immunity as the head of state. Even the royal court has been generally tying to isolate itself from Juan Carlos, as it removed the generous pension given to him.



    In my opinion, Juan Carlos was a far-sighted king, concerning his long-term interests, who accurately predicted that the times of absolutism were counted, following Franco's death. He therefore contributed to the gradual transition towards democracy and even objected to the 1981 coup d'état attempt. Thanks to his stance, he managed to rescue the prestige of the monarchy, thus transforming Spain into a parliamentary monarchy, which assured the future of the Bourbon dynasty. However, the recent scandals confirm how prone to corruption he and several members of his family are, at the expense of the Spanish people. These controversies have undermined the popularity of the monarchy, although the crowning of Philip VI demonstrated that the royal institution enjoys the approval of the absolute majority. What do you believe about the prospects and the legitimacy of the monarchy in Spain? I'm personally against it, for numerous reasons: Ideological, being opposed to any hereditary privilege for political authority, historical, as the Bourbon dynasty played a rather shady role in sabotaging democracy in Spain at least until the 1930s and, finally, because of all these financial incidents of corruption and embezzlement.

  2. #2
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    I would dare say that elected officials are as prone, or even more prone, to corruption than 21st century European monarchs.
    That said, the rest of your objections towards Monarchy as an institution in Spain are absolutely valid.

    BUT...
    I am a conservative: I want the world to remain the same and I am strongly resistant to random changes. I want Spain to remain a Monarchy.
    Would I want my own country to have a king? Hell no! I am against monarchy over my head. But I want monarchies to remain monarchies, including the real monarchies like Brunei, Thailand and Saudi Arabia. I also want republics to remain republics and I want theocracies to remain theocracies (like Vatican, Mount Athos, Tibet and Persia).
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    Derc's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    Let's go and play with the Phalanx then. Or better, stones.
    The world is an ever changing place, and a monarchy is just no part of it anymore, expect for some backwater regions perhaps. The monarchies in Europe only still exist because of economy, reputation, and yeah, tradition. Latter isn't worth anything without the former two. Neither is a king who does not have any real power. Frankly, it's perverse.

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    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    Juan Carlos should've removed the royal Arms from the door of his gilt carriage, otherwise how is he supposed to move around incognito?

    Very hard to remove a monarchy, they have a great deal of buttressing ideology and loyalty. In my time in the UK I was struck but the hatred most subjects held for many (most?) members of the royal household, mixed with their rusted on loyalty to the institution. HM Elizabeth is of course and exceptional monarch but even her twerpish Nazi-sympathising uncle enjoyed a lot of popularity.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  5. #5
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    Let's go and play with the Phalanx then. Or better, stones.
    The world is an ever changing place, and a monarchy is just no part of it anymore, expect for some backwater regions perhaps. The monarchies in Europe only still exist because of economy, reputation, and yeah, tradition. Latter isn't worth anything without the former two. Neither is a king who does not have any real power. Frankly, it's perverse.
    I disagree, tradition is very important in its own right. It connects us to the past and guides us to the future. Tradition is very important but how we follow it should have a nod towards economy and reputation.
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    As monarch Juan Carlos was probably better than most; he should be lauded for transitioning Spain to democracy, and I'll always treasure that time he told Chavez to shut up, but ultimately the whole institution of monarchy strikes me as illiberal and borderline idolatrous.

    Last edited by Prodromos; August 06, 2020 at 11:49 AM.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    Juan Carlos' voice sounds like Mr Bean.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I would dare say that elected officials are as prone, or even more prone, to corruption than 21st century European monarchs.
    That said, the rest of your objections towards Monarchy as an institution in Spain are absolutely valid.

    BUT...
    I am a conservative: I want the world to remain the same and I am strongly resistant to random changes. I want Spain to remain a Monarchy.
    Would I want my own country to have a king? Hell no! I am against monarchy over my head. But I want monarchies to remain monarchies, including the real monarchies like Brunei, Thailand and Saudi Arabia. I also want republics to remain republics and I want theocracies to remain theocracies (like Vatican, Mount Athos, Tibet and Persia).
    Still using a rotary telephone. Wanting things to remain unchanging as a definition of a conservative might just be the worst slander against conservatives I have ever heard uttered. I never imagined a view of conservatism so lacking in complexity existed in the real. You have changed my understanding.

  9. #9
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Juan Carlos should've removed the royal Arms from the door of his gilt carriage, otherwise how is he supposed to move around incognito?

    Very hard to remove a monarchy, they have a great deal of buttressing ideology and loyalty. In my time in the UK I was struck but the hatred most subjects held for many (most?) members of the royal household, mixed with their rusted on loyalty to the institution. HM Elizabeth is of course and exceptional monarch but even her twerpish Nazi-sympathising uncle enjoyed a lot of popularity.
    the monarchy in Spain is also linked to ideology, of course to the right / extreme right. It is a reactionary institution and, after all, it was reinstated in Spain by the dictator Francisco Franco. Related to this, a beautiful story about the nobility of the former monarch: Franco wanted to restore the monarchy, he offered the father of juan carlos (the duke of barcelona) to return from his exile in portugal, he refused, his son accepted the proposal , becoming the loyal mascot of the dictator. A truly regal demeanor. Another anecdote related to his rise to the crown? Do you know that he was not the eldest son of the Duke of Barcelona? Do you know how his older brother died? Oh, royalty. Always a bulwark of morality and honesty.

    In Spain, until recently, he was an untouchable figure, especially because of his actions during the 1982 coup d'état. A few soldiers (retrograde fascists who could not tolerate diversity of ideologies) entered the congress and kidnapped the place. They were there for hours, waiting for "something". Unfortunately for them, Juan Carlos did not support them and appealed to the strength of Spain as a democratic state. This - not wanting to back a military coup, not siding with cowardly barbarians, doing the right thing with a five-minute speech - has earned him total immunity so far. Immunity among conservatives AND among some centrists and socialists. country I live in. If someone is wondering about the future, Juan Carlos, who is already very old, (81 years old I think) will not suffer more penalties than those imposed by his son (such as the one he has already imposed; leave the country towards some paradise in the Caribbean or to a palace of some saudi friend). His son, Felipe, until now not directly involved in any scandal, if he is careful he will live a long reign and we will all celebrate the modernity that a woman, one of his daughters, I do not remember the name, is the next queen of Spain. This about the year 2050. What a disgusting country ffs.

    It would also be interesting to talk about why the general public feels (or felt, I don't know) sympathy for this man. He showed himself as a close man (he was humorously called Juan Carlos "the campechano/folksy"), which would seem something great to see to those who considered him a superior person, and he was also admired by this macho society for his "romantic" (actresses and low nobility) and sexual (whores) adventures.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I disagree, tradition is very important in its own right. It connects us to the past and guides us to the future. Tradition is very important but how we follow it should have a nod towards economy and reputation.
    exactly what would happen if we abolished the monarchy? Would we forget our past and would Movistar's actions plummet?
    Last edited by mishkin; August 29, 2020 at 07:19 AM. Reason: lo siento no hablo inglés
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  10. #10
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    If you are referring to Infante Alfonso, just a minor, pedantic correction, but he was actually younger than Juan Carlos. The name of the Princess of Asturias is Leonor, but she could still lose the throne, if a male child is born. I think there were talks for a reform of the succession law that would abolish the privilege of male heirs, in favour of simple progeniture, but I'm not sure how the proposed legislation proceeded. It's probably superfluous now, since it's unlikely that any new child will be born (Philip VI and Letizia are respectively 52 and 48 yeras old). However, Letizia getting crowned as the Queen of Spain is not unpreceded, since there's always the case of Isabella II, whose controversial ascension to the thrown sparked the Carlist Wars.

    If the Count of Molina, whose particular branch was even more reactionary than the reigning dynasty, the question of succession would have probably been much more interesting: There are the Parma claimants, Charles Xavier and Sixtus Henry (who considers his cousin unsuitable for the crown, because his father was a socialist supporter of Tito's Yugoslavia), the Bourbon one, Louis Alphonse, who is also viewed as the legitimate monarch of France by those who recognize Charles X as the last lawful king of the country [opposed to the more numerous and nowadays equally ultra-conservative Orleanist factions, represented by the group Action Française (its local leader studies in the same classrooms as me, yeah, what an honour!)] and, of course, last but not least, Arch-duke Dominic of Austria. Much juicier, more interesting and complicated than the prospect of Leonor losing her birth privileges from a male baby.

    In all other (and more important) regards, I agree with you. His behaviour in the 1981 failed coup was praiseworthy, but its morality is probably over-exaggerated. The plotters were just a fringe group of extremist law enforcement officers, with absolutely zero idea about what was realistic and what was not. Juan Carlos simply estimated that the times for a fascist dictatorship had passed and that his dynasty would only be saved, if he openly supported the parliamentary system and recognized that the royal institution would no longer enjoy any legislative or executive powers, but would now be limited to a largely ceremonial role. Of course, the symbolism of their office has not prevented him and his offspring from embezzling public money and getting involved into shady deals with foreign interests.

  11. #11
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    If you are referring to Infante Alfonso, just a minor, pedantic correction, but he was actually younger than Juan Carlos.
    Not pedantic at all, I should have known, I got carried away by my republicanism.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  12. #12

    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    Monarchy (as in organic monarchy supported by natural aristocracy) isn't that bad, at least as we now know in retrospective of what monarchies tend to be replaced with tends to be much worse (Germany, Russia, France, etc.).

  13. #13
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    ...becoming the loyal mascot of the dictator.
    Indeed. On 5 March 1966, Juan CArlos was supposed to go Estoril to attend a meeting of the Privy Council to confirm his father Juan de Borbon the successor to the throne. Franco advised him to not participate and Juan Carlos followed the dictator's advice and betrayed his father. And to add insult to injury, Juan Carlos wrote asking for his father's blessing.The count of Barcelona wrote to the traitor: "What monarchy are you saving? a monarchy that is against your father? you have saved nothing. You want to save a Franco monarchy? I do not agree and I will never will. I will never accept that you can be King of Spain". And he stripped Juan Carlos of the title Prince of Asturias. Franco immediately bestowed upon Juan the the title of Prince of Spain.

    Cascais,our homage to the Count of Barcelona.Statue inaugurated in 1997. The socialist President of the Republic Jorge Sampaio presided at the inauguration ceremony






    ---------

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I want the world to remain the same and I am strongly resistant to random changes.
    ...someone opposing political or social progress or reform? But you see, alhoon,as Socrate put it, to move the world we must move ourselves.
    A bright day for the Spanish democracy, another defeat for the international fascism.
    Well done, Spain.
    Historical memory: Spain drafts bill against remaining legacy ...

    fThe new law will offer citizenship to the descendants of members of the International Brigades
    The descendants of the members of the International Brigades who fought for freedom and against fascism in Spain will be eligible for Spanish nationality. It was time for this government to say to these heroes and heroines of democracy

    The Democratic Memory bill, which builds on existing historical memory legislation, contemplates closing down associations that still glorify the late dictator’s memory, including the Francisco Franco Foundation, which will be declared illegal.
    With this bill, the government also wants to turn the Valley of the Fallen, a controversial, state-run civil war memorial outside Madrid, into a place of collective memory
    The bill also makes provisions for the creation of a specialized prosecutor’s office for democratic memory and human rights, and for a national DNA bank to help with the exhumation of victims from mass graves, to be funded with public money. Forensic expert Francisco Etxeberria, who has advised the government during the drafting of the bill, estimates that between 20,000 and 25,000 bodies could be recovered from mass graves in the next four to five years.

    Voiding Francoist trials

    Calvo said the law would declare void all the summary trials held in Francoist Spain, honoring a longstanding demand by historical memory associations.
    Calvo also said that overturning those legal proceedings is the best form of reparation for the political trials that led to the summary execution of “important people such as [Lluis] Companys,” alluding to the president of Catalonia between 1933 and 1940 who was shot by a firing squad at Franco’s orders
    Additionally, the bill significantly alters the way Francoism is to be taught in primary and secondary schools across Spain. United Nations Special Rapporteur Pablo de Greiff had said in a report about Spain that some schoolbooks described the civil war “in generic terms, perpetuating the notion of symmetric responsibility [by both sides].”
    In a recent interview with EL PAÍS, Calvo said that the 66 items in the bill lay out the foundation “to build a common democratic memory for all Spaniards.”
    Last edited by Ludicus; September 16, 2020 at 12:31 PM.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    Ironically monarchies have a much lower track record of mass-murdering population then non-monarchies. For example, Romanovs were a much more benevolent government then Soviet dictatorship that came to power after them.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    So you're telling me a Bourbon is fleeing the country with a bundle of money during a crisis?

    French MFs
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    French revolutionaries were murderous scum. I wonder if in some years people will post memes like "Adolf, get the Zyklon B canister".

  17. #17
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    So you're telling me a Bourbon is fleeing the country with a bundle of money during a crisis?]
    an old man who can barely walk escaped us ... shameful country. (the last straw is that quite possibly the Spanish state is still paying for his security wherever he is).
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  18. #18
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    French revolutionaries were murderous scum. I wonder if in some years people will post memes like "Adolf, get the Zyklon B canister".
    You have to understand that they had their reasons for being murderous, don't you?
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Still using a rotary telephone. Wanting things to remain unchanging as a definition of a conservative might just be the worst slander against conservatives I have ever heard uttered. I never imagined a view of conservatism so lacking in complexity existed in the real. You have changed my understanding.
    Indeed, and I would not want to be associated with that kind of "conservatism".


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    You have to understand that they had their reasons for being murderous, don't you?
    I hope that was sarcasm...

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Juan Carlos goes on self-imposed exile amidst allegations of corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    an old man who can barely walk escaped us ... shameful country. (the last straw is that quite possibly the Spanish state is still paying for his security wherever he is).
    He's a Bourbon, they have a family tradition of catching syphilis, so here's to tradition!
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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