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Thread: Understanding Fascism

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    I can see that...



    Well, if you feel that way - by all means present your case here and I will have a look at it. Since you apparently have all the experts on your side - all this should be a cakewalk for you. Start by producing the supposedly compelling reasons, evidence and explanations that convinced all them experts (and you) that Nazism is indeed a form of fascism somehow - and especially why it is not something unique and distinct enough to deserve a category of its own. Make me a believer! And don't forget to explain and substantiate all my relevant "gaps, simplification and wrong interpretation", alright?

    As for me, I have already written enough stuff here to make my case plain and clear enough I think - for most people, even for you. I have explained some rather important differences and distinctions already, that should be enough (see previous posts). If in doubt, read my posts, again... And again, if you have too... And again, until you can see it...

    Well, the ball is yours...

    - A
    No, it is not. The ball is, as said above, on you to study the matter much deeper. You have here the exotic point, which would need much more substance to have a valid point. It's simply a lack of historical and politological knowledge on your behalf. Plus here obviously, with guys who don't know how the proper according categorization works in this matter. It's a typical TWC "discussion" here, a platform, where regulary posters appear and make absurd claims (in general meant, no offence to you). I explained it clear enough, that Nationalsocialism belongs into the category of Fascism. And i would say, the overwhelming majority of related scholars agree with me (watch/study the according sources). I'm not here to entertain TWC'iers anymore, and thus certainly won't waste more time on this theme (i did in the past).

    In the end it is very simple to understand: A Nazi is a Fascist, while not every Fascist is a Nazi. Fascism is a wide field with different shaping.
    But again, in the case of the German Nationalsocialism of the Third Reich and Mussolini's Fascism, it is pretty simple: The German Fascism "meets" all shape and form of the Italian Fascism. And on top of that, brought Fascism to its most extreme shaping, and this not only but especially with the Holocaust.

    And btw., you didn't adress my points and questions. If you would, or would at least actually think about them, you could see how wrong your point or approach is. You have already a basic knowledge (but somehow stopped it to let it grow properly), dig deeper and to its full potential, then you will have it. EDIT (at last): After i was reading Axalon's further posts, i take that latter part back. They show a lack of reading comprehension, meaning of related terms, interpretation of sources, and especially inability to understand categorization (in whole or short, according non-intellectualism).

    Edit

    For some online-education, as not everybody can buy according books or has an according library close-by or is a history/politology student at university, as follows a link with a term directory A-Z, refering to the category 'Fascism': https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Faschismus (German source-directory ... the English link, left side/page, directs to a similar source-directory, but that is more limited in comparison) ... as said, Germany, as the source country of Nationalsocialism, is well advanced in the related sciences, so i recommend everybody who can decifer German language, German sources, at least as control and/or amendment/completion to English sources.

    And for further convinience, 'Faschismus-Theorie' (scientific theories about: Characteristics, paradigms, societal and historical factors): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faschismustheorie (German source ... the English link, left side/page, goes alone with definitions by several scholars)

    Umberto Eco's "Ur-Fascism" (1995) is not bad. However, Italian scholar Emilio Gentile, summarises the fascist elements pretty well, 1996 (excerpt from the English aforementioned source)
    Emilio Gentile

    Italian historian of fascism Emilio Gentile described fascism in 1996 as the "sacralization of politics" through totalitarian methods[21] and argued the following ten constituent elements:[22]

    a mass movement with multiclass membership in which prevail, among the leaders and the militants, the middle sectors, in large part new to political activity, organized as a party militia, that bases its identity not on social hierarchy or class origin but on a sense of comradeship, believes itself invested with a mission of national regeneration, considers itself in a state of war against political adversaries and aims at conquering a monopoly of political power by using terror, parliamentary politics, and deals with leading groups, to create a new regime that destroys parliamentary democracy;
    an 'anti-ideological' and pragmatic ideology that proclaims itself antimaterialist, anti-individualist, antiliberal, antidemocratic, anti-Marxist, is populist and anticapitalist in tendency, expresses itself aesthetically more than theoretically by means of a new political style and by myths, rites, and symbols as a lay religion designed to acculturate, socialize, and integrate the faith of the masses with the goal of creating a 'new man';
    a culture founded on mystical thought and the tragic and activist sense of life conceived of as the manifestation of the will to power, on the myth of youth as artificer of history, and on the exaltation of the militarization of politics as the model of life and collective activity;
    a totalitarian conception of the primacy of politics, conceived of as an integrating experience to carry out the fusion of the individual and the masses in the organic and mystical unity of the nation as an ethnic and moral community, adopting measures of discrimination and persecution against those considered to be outside this community either as enemies of the regime or members of races considered to be inferior or otherwise dangerous for the integrity of the nation;
    a civil ethic founded on total dedication to the national community, on discipline, virility, comradeship, and the warrior spirit;
    a single state party that has the task of providing for the armed defense of the regime, selecting its directing cadres, and organizing the masses within the state in a process of permanent mobilization of emotion and faith;
    a police apparatus that prevents, controls, and represses dissidence and opposition, including through the use of organized terror;
    a political system organized by hierarchy of functions named from the top and crowned by the figure of the 'leader,' invested with a sacred charisma, who commands, directs, and coordinates the activities of the party and the regime;
    corporative organization of the economy that suppresses trade union liberty, broadens the sphere of state intervention, and seeks to achieve, by principles of technocracy and solidarity, the collaboration of the 'productive sectors' under control of the regime, to achieve its goals of power, yet preserving private property and class divisions;
    a foreign policy inspired by the myth of national power and greatness, with the goal of imperialist expansion.[23]
    It should be merely obvious for everybody with some minimum political/historical knowledge, that Nationalsocialism fits quasi 100 % into this scheme.
    And that renders every "debate" of "Nazism is distinct from Fascism" obsolete.
    Last edited by DaVinci; August 26, 2020 at 05:56 PM.
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    If National-Socialism isn't "real" socialism because it allowed ownership of private property, then neither is USSR's socialism, which allowed private property during NEP and Stalin's "artels".
    In fact, most socialist regimes in history had private property existing in some shape or form, so according to such argument no true socialism is even possible.
    One may simply admit to the fact that "fascism" in itself is inherently a mode of socialism which simply replaces marxist internationalist gobbledygook with nationalism, while economic model remains largely the same.

  3. #23
    pacifism's Avatar see the day
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    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    I think what people are starting to hint at, is that, the theoretical basis for each system becomes largely irrelevant in practice, as they all use the same tools to pool power in a small elite. The theoretical basis then becomes justification, or a source of legitimacy that may in fact have no real bearing on the actual practice in reality. Much like a medieval king claiming legitimacy from a godly anointment - when what really mattered was how much those in the king's inner circle stood to gain from the king's ongoing position. It's window dressing for totalitarianism that is completely ignored whenever need be (looking for Marx's opinions on modern China for example)
    You could say that about any State if you're pessimistic enough. "They're similar because they're both authoritarian" is a bit too superficial of an analysis for me. It also plays into the mentality that one wing has the bad guys in and the other has the good guys, which is really not a healthy form of public discourse if you let that kind of thinking run wild. Communists weren't Fascists, and Fascists weren't Communists. They were bitter enemies for a reason. It wasn't their similarities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    While National-Socialism is definitely a type of socialism, the statement of the opposite is made mainly for political reasons, kinda why term "nazism" was invented in the first place as socialists didn't want to be associated with less popular branch of their own ideology.
    The two main counter-arguments are presence of private property and NSDAP's nationalism - which tend to ignore that pretty much every other socialist regime in history from USSR during Uljanov's NEP to modern-day communist China.
    Plenty of socialist regimes also have been highly nationalistic - especially in East Asia.
    And the Nazis banned the actual Socialist party. Pretty dumb move if they were actually just the less popular kids on the playground but still allies.

    They claimed to be a societal movement, but not a Marxist socialism, because they did not hold to Marx's analysis of history and class, you see what I'm saying? They had their own perspective on civilization and all that, one that centered on the Nordic race struggle and not the global class struggle. Fascists and Nazis themselves described themselves as a third way, an alternative, to both capitalism and Marxism. Surely they cannot also be a subset of Marxism.

    Let me put it this way: is the name the only thing that matters here? Were the other fascists that didn't have the word "Socialist" in their names commiesTM too?
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  4. #24
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    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    Communists weren't Fascists, and Fascists weren't Communists. They were bitter enemies for a reason. It wasn't their similarities.
    Totally agree. Like I said on the page before... It's about where they get legitimacy from. It's a brotherly hatred, and all the deeper for it.

    But I'm also of the opinion that we don't need to be anything other than superficial. And that if you go too deep and start debating macroeconomics or abstract notions of the state, then you're in danger missing the forest for the trees - of losing track of exactly why these systems are so problematically similar, and why they're so similar to other absolutist or authoritarian leadership structures, and why ultimately they are so unstable in the long term.

    I'm not going to go into 'good vs bad' subjectivity. But I do think we get too fixated on the theoretical origins of these movements when for the leadership cadres they are essentially justification for totalitarianism - a totalitarianism that allows for governance by dictate. The reason why it's so difficult to pin down exactly what a Marxist system, or Communist, or Fascist system is, is because in practice the leaders of these governments did what ever they wanted to whomever they wanted, whenever they wanted, irrespective of the source of their legitimacy - and sometimes the justification was written into place after the fact. If Stalin does what ever he wants with no limits, and Mao does what ever he wants with no limits, and Hitler does what ever he wants with no limits, and if Louis XIV does what ever he wants with few exceptions, then it's more interesting to look at why they're all so similar, rather than what labels they decided to place on their dictatorships. Otherwise its like looking at the different weapons two different mass murderers chose to use - when they'e both psychopaths - differences are interesting, but doesn't explain the 'why' part.

    From my perspective, it's more helpful from a societal point of view to view them through an empathy vs sociopathy, or dominance vs cooperation type of lens, rather than to look at them as being for collectivisation of the means of production or such like. Then we can start to get into the really good questions... like why people follow absolutists even against their best interests, and why is it that society seems to continually throw up charismatic sociopaths? is there some kind of evolutionary advantage?
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  5. #25
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    In the end it is very simple to understand: A Nazi is a Fascist, while not every Fascist is a Nazi. Fascism is a wide field with different shaping.
    ..The German Fascism..brought Fascism to its most extreme shaping, and this not only but especially with the Holocaust.
    Ditto.
    -----
    I hope this helps to clarify some misunderstandings,

    The Doctrine of Fascism by Benito Mussolini
    Read the full document. Contrary to popular belief, only the last part of "The Doctrine of Fascism" was written by Mussolini. Gentile wrote the first 2/3.

    Gentile wrote,

    POLITICAL AND SOCIAL DOCTRINE - EVOLUTION FROM SOCIALISM

    When in the now distant March of 1919, speaking through the columns of the Popolo d'Italia I summoned to Milan the surviving interventionists who had intervened, and who had followed me ever since the foundation of the Fasci of revolutionary action in January 1915, I had in mind no specific doctrinal program. The only doctrine of which I had practical experience was that of socialism, from until the winter of 1914 - nearly a decade. My experience was that both of a follower and a leader but it was not doctrinal experience. My doctrine during that period had been the doctrine of action. A uniform, universally accepted doctrine of Socialism had not existed since 1905, when the revisionist movement, headed by Bernstein, arose in Germany, countered by the formation, in the see-saw of tendencies, of a left revolutionary movement which in Italy never quitted the field of phrases, whereas, in the case of Russian socialism, it became the prelude to Bolshevism.
    Reformism, revolutionism, centrism, the very echo of that terminology is dead, while in the great river of Fascism one can trace currents which had their source in Sorel, Peguy, Lagardelle of the Movement Socialists, and in the cohort of Italian syndicalist who from 1904 to 1914 brought a new note into the Italian socialist environment - previously emasculated and chloroformed by fornicating with Giolitti's party - a note sounded in Olivetti's Pagine Libere, Orano's Lupa, Enrico Leone's Divenirs Socials.
    When the war ended in 1919 Socialism, as a doctrine, was already dead; it continued to exist only as a grudge, especially in Italy where its only chance lay in inciting to reprisals against the men who had willed the war and who were to be made to pay for it.
    The Popolo d'Italia described itself in its subtitle as the daily organ of fighters and producers. The word producer was already the expression of a mental trend. Fascism was not the nursling of a doctrine previously drafted at a desk; it was born of the need of action, and was action; it was not a party but, in the first two years, an anti-party and a movement. The name I gave the organization fixed its character.
    Yet if anyone cares to reread the now crumpled sheets of those days giving an account of the meeting at which the Italian Fasci di combattimento were founded, he will find not a doctrine but a series of pointers, forecasts, hints which, when freed from the inevitable matrix of contingencies, were to develop in a few years time into a series of doctrinal positions entitling Fascism to rank as a political doctrine differing from all others, past or present.
    “If the bourgeoisie - I then said - believe that they have found in us their lightening-conductors, they arc mistaken. We must go towards the people... We wish the working classes to accustom themselves to the responsibilities of management so that they may realize that it is no easy matter to run a business... We will fight both technical and spiritual rear-guirdism... Now that the succession of the re*gime is open we must not be fainthearted. We must rush forward; if the present regime is to be superseded we must take its place. The right of succession is ours, for we urged the country to enter the war and we led it to victory... The existing forms of political representation cannot satisfy us; we want direst representation of the several interests... It may be objected that this program implies a return to the guilds (corporazioni). No matter!. I therefore hope this assembly will accept the economic claims advanced by national syndicalism …
    Is it not strange that from the very first day, at Piazza San Sepolcro, the word "guild" (corporazione) was pronounced, a word which, as the Revolution developed, was to express one of the basic legislative and social creations of the regime?
    The years preceding the march on Rome cover a period during which the need of action forbade delay and careful doctrinal elaborations. Fighting was going on in the towns and villages. There were discussions but... there was some*thing more sacred and more important... death... Fascists knew how to die. A doctrine - fully elaborated, divided up into chapters and paragraphs with annotations, may have been lacking, but it was replaced by something far more decisive, - by a faith. All the same, if with the help of books, articles, resolutions passed at congresses, major and minor speeches, anyone should care to revive the memory of those days, he will find, provided he knows how to seek and select, that the doctrinal foundations were laid while the battle was still raging. Indeed, it was during those years that Fascist thought armed, refined itself, and proceeded ahead with its organization. The problems of the individual and the State; the problems of authority and liberty; political, social, and more especially national problems were discussed; the conflict with liberal, democratic, socialistic, Masonic doctrines and with those of the Partito Popolare, was carried on at the same time as the punitive expeditions. Nevertheless, the lack of a formal system was used by disingenuous adversaries as an argument for proclaiming Fascism incapable of elaborating a doctrine at the very time when that doctrine was being formulated - no matter how tumultuously, - first, as is the case with all new ideas, in the guise of violent dogmatic negations; then in the more positive guise of constructive theories, subsequently incorporated, in 1926, 1927, and 1928, in the laws and institutions of the regime.
    Fascism is now clearly defined not only as a regime but as a doctrine. This means that Fascism, exercising its critical faculties on itself and on others, has studied from its own special standpoint and judged by its own standards all the problems affecting the material and intellectual interests now causing such grave anxiety to the nations of the world, and is ready to deal with them by its own policies.

    REJECTION OF MARXISM

    Such a conception of life makes Fascism the resolute negation of the doctrine underlying so-called scientific and Marxian socialism, the doctrine of historic materialism which would explain the history of mankind in terms of the class struggle and by changes in the processes and instruments of production, to the exclusion of all else.
    That the vicissitudes of economic life - discoveries of raw materials, new technical processes, and scientific inventions - have their importance, no one denies; but that they suffice to explain human history to the exclusion of other factors is absurd.
    Fascism believes now and always in sanctity and heroism, that is to say in acts in which no economic motive - remote or immediate - is at work. Having denied historic materialism, which sees in men mere puppets on the surface of history, appearing and disappearing on the crest of the waves while in the depths the real directing forces move and work, Fascism also denies the immutable and irreparable character of the class struggle which is the natural outcome of this economic conception of history; above all it denies that the class struggle is the preponderating agent in social transformations.
    Having thus struck a blow at socialism in the two main points of its doctrine, all that remains of it is the sentimental aspiration, old as humanity itself-toward social relations in which the sufferings and sorrows of the humbler folk will be alleviated.
    But here again Fascism rejects the economic interpretation of felicity as something to be secured socialistically, almost automatically, at a given stage of economic evolution when all will be assured a maximum of material comfort. Fascism denies the materialistic conception of happiness as a possibility, and abandons it to the economists of the mid-eighteenth century.
    This means that Fascism denies the equation: well-being = happiness, which sees in men mere animals, content when they can feed and fatten, thus reducing them to a vegetative existence pure and simple.
    ---------
    Nowadays, socialist parties in Europe (social democratic parties), generally speaking, aim for a gradual pursuit of social reforms -for example public education and universal healthcare-through the processes of democratic government within a capitalist system.
    Here, the Socialist Party fought Salazar's fascist regime and totalitarian communism in 1974.
    Labour Historian Raquel Varela, interview,

    CS: Yes, this is indeed another point that strikes me: following the financial crisis of 2008, in Portugal, unlike in other countries in Europe, no strong right-wing party developed. Could you explain how this is tied to the Carnation Revolution?

    RV: That is definitely a consequence of the revolution. The revolution was not solely a transition to democracy but a revolution that made purges in the state apparatus and turned the leadership of the right-wing regime out of the state apparatus. There was a clear break with this leadership.
    There is no culture and savoir faire of the extreme right in Portugal. This can change, of course, but until now, while the generation of the revolution is still alive I don’t believe it is possible to have a strong extreme right. That, of course, means that in ten years we don’t know what will happen.
    Last edited by Ludicus; August 21, 2020 at 10:35 AM.
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  6. #26
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    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    @ Ludicus

    You better make very clear, what "Gentile": Giovanni Gentile
    ... obviously a not so rare name in Italy.
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    Iirc., already 2013 i spoke of "Renaissance of Fascism", it was accurate.
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    And the Nazis banned the actual Socialist party. Pretty dumb move if they were actually just the less popular kids on the playground but still allies.

    They claimed to be a societal movement, but not a Marxist socialism, because they did not hold to Marx's analysis of history and class, you see what I'm saying? They had their own perspective on civilization and all that, one that centered on the Nordic race struggle and not the global class struggle. Fascists and Nazis themselves described themselves as a third way, an alternative, to both capitalism and Marxism. Surely they cannot also be a subset of Marxism.

    Let me put it this way: is the name the only thing that matters here? Were the other fascists that didn't have the word "Socialist" in their names commiesTM too?
    So they were a One-Party State, big whoop. There have been plenty of other socialist and communist states that have banned alternative political parties. Soviet Russia, China and North Korea. You don't want other political parties running around in your totalitarian regime, since those other parties would only serve to divide your country and thwart your party's control.

    Sorry it just gets to me whenever I see someone play Gotcha! about how the National Socialists German Workers Party, came after other socialist parties, as if such a practice wasn't common to Fascist, Socialist, or Communist regimes........... Actually such a practice might not be common to fascist governments since I am completely unfamiliar with how Musolini's Italy and Franco's Spain were run. So you might be able to correct me on that.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    And the Nazis banned the actual Socialist party. Pretty dumb move if they were actually just the less popular kids on the playground but still allies.
    It is actually quite typical for socialist regime to BTFO other socialists. Stalin's purges easily come to mind.
    They claimed to be a societal movement, but not a Marxist socialism, because they did not hold to Marx's analysis of history and class, you see what I'm saying? They had their own perspective on civilization and all that, one that centered on the Nordic race struggle and not the global class struggle. Fascists and Nazis themselves described themselves as a third way, an alternative, to both capitalism and Marxism. Surely they cannot also be a subset of Marxism.

    Let me put it this way: is the name the only thing that matters here? Were the other fascists that didn't have the word "Socialist" in their names commiesTM too?
    Again, see above post. Fascism and National-Socialism are both sub-types of socialism, with just slightly different ideological caviat. Marxists themselves try to stay away from Marx's own ideas on race and ethnicity, as Marx himself was a racist and supporter of eugenics. Plenty of regimes universally recognized as socialist were actually very nationalistic. Just look at Vietnam.

  9. #29
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    Alright, some more comments here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    ... Maybe Strongmanism is a better term for the plague of 20th century illegal rule? Or Napoleonism?
    Personally, I would probably go for something like "Autocratism" out of Autocracy. I think this would be broad enough to cover most bases, and it could obviously apply to all dictators - including all the socialist/communist ones as well. As for legality... Most autocrats typically seems to make all the necessary changes/arrangements for their regime to end up perfectly legal - once their power is secure enough - despite it might have not started out that way....


    ======================

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Fascism is a branch of revolutionary Marxism. Contemporary socialists typically deny the association between Mussolini's fascism, Hitlerism and socialism, but it was no coincidence that a variety of totalitarian, collectivist regimes and movements calling themselves "socialist" emerged at the end of the First World War.

    I expressed my thoughts on the matter more thoroughly here.
    Interesting... Ultimately, I disagree with the analysis but it is an interesting take all the same. My main critique would probably be something along the lines of "it all strikes me as bit overly simplistic and too unconcerned with actual existing differences/distinctiveness between all these movements. Why is it more advantageous to ignore these (differences and such distinctiveness), rather then to recognize them? And what is supposedly gained by not keeping the apart?" Something like that....


    ======================

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    There are differences between fascism and nazism, two faces of the same coin,top down elitist ideologies.For Hitler, the racial aspect was crucial:"Every revolution is fundamentally racial. There are no social, political, or economic revolutions. Combat always opposes an inferior racial sub-stratum to a superior ruling race"
    Might I ask how they were they elitist exactly? In what way would you argue this a salient trait? In what practical sense? And what was the difference in that regard to lets say the CCCP or DDR, for instance? ...?...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    But race was also a factor in Mussolini's policy.Mussolini combined anti-Semitism and racism to form the fascist racial policy ( see the anti-Semitic legislation of 1938 and the Italian racial laws (Le leggi per la difesa della razza)
    While this is technically true... I (seriously) question that it ever was a natural part of Italian fascism - instead it seems quite artificial and external to me. In fact, the whole thing strikes me as an expression of Mussolini's unbothered opportunism and lack of personal character/code - rather then some genuine element of fascism. By 1922 the fascists was formally was handed power over the Italian state - by the king - this after multiple power-struggles and fascist activism all over Italy for about 2 years. By 1938, the fascists - with Mussolini as dictator of Italy - had held power for some 16 years straight - this without any interruptions of power what so ever. So one have too ask oneself, why would the ruling fascists wait some 16 years before they bother to introduce any Italian anti-Semitic legislation, and this for the first time?!?

    What had changed? And why now, 1938? Why not earlier? What had happened? And, if racism and racial laws actually had been a natural and important part of the fascist agenda - it would have made more sense to introduce and enforce such laws much, much sooner - like shortly after their power was secured, right? But they did not do that - nah they waited 16 years. To me, the only one rational conclusion is that racism and anti-Semitism was not really a part of the fascist agenda. Besides, it would be awfully hard to explain away the fact that up to November 1938 - a few thousand (Italian) Jews - were actual and official members of the Italian fascist party (source here). An impossibility - had racism and anti-Semitism been a natural or critical part of fascism. The fact is, it was not. Instead I think it was a matter of appeasing Nazi-Germany and thus securing an alliance with the same - the pact of steel - which was formalized and made public in Berlin some 5 months later (in 1939). Wikipedia states....

    "No racial laws were promulgated in Fascist Italy prior to 1938. The racial laws were introduced at the same time as Fascist Italy began to ally itself with Nazi Germany and mere months before Fascist Italy would form the Pact of Steel military alliance with Nazi Germany. William Shirer in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich suggests that Mussolini enacted the laws to appease his powerful German allies, rather than to satisfy any genuine anti-Semitic sentiment among the Italian people.

    Indeed, prior to 1938 and the Pact of Steel alliance, Mussolini and many notable Italian fascists had been highly critical of Nordicism, biological racism, and anti-Semitism, especially the virulent and violent anti-Semitism and biological racism found in Nazi Germany. Many early supporters of Italian fascism, including Mussolini's mistress, the writer and socialite Margherita Sarfatti, had in fact been middle class or upper middle class Italian Jews. Nordicism and biological racism were often considered incompatible with the early Italian fascist philosophy; Nordicism inherently subordinated Italians and other Mediterranean people beneath the Germans and Northwestern Europeans in its proposed racial hierarchy, and early Italian fascists, including Mussolini, viewed race as a cultural and political invention rather than a biological reality.

    In 1929, Mussolini noted that Italian Jews had been a demographically small yet culturally integral part of Italian society since Ancient Rome. His views on Italian Jews were consistent with his early Mediterraneanist viewpoint, which suggested that all Mediterranean cultures, including the Jewish culture, shared a common bond. He further argued that Italian Jews had truly become "Italians" or natives to Italy after such a long period on the peninsula.[4][5] However, Mussolini's views on race were often contradictory and quick to change when necessary, and as Fascist Italy became increasingly subordinate to Nazi Germany's interests, Mussolini began adopting openly racial theories borrowed from or based on Nazi Germany's racial policies, leading to the introduction of the anti-Semitic racial laws.[5] Historian Federico Chabod argued that the introduction of the Nordicist-influenced racial laws was a large factor in the decrease of public support among Italians for Fascist Italy, and many Italians viewed the racial laws as an obvious imposition or intrusion of Nazi German values into Italian cultures and a sign that Mussolini and Fascist Italy's power was collapsing under Nazi German influence.[4][6]"
    (Wikipedia, Italian racial laws - unpopularity-section)

    In fact several leading high-ranking fascists was clearly against the anti-Semitic legislation of 1938 - including Italo Balbo - the supposed/intended successor to dictator Mussolini... (Wikipedia, Italian racial laws - unpopularity-section)

    - A
    Last edited by Axalon; August 21, 2020 at 02:02 PM. Reason: Changes...

  10. #30
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    And another post...

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    No, it is not. The ball is, as said above, on you to study the matter much deeper. You have here the exotic point, which would need much more substance to have a valid point. It's simply a lack of historical and politological knowledge on your behalf. Plus here obviously, with guys who don't know how the proper according categorization works in this matter. It's a typical TWC "discussion" here, a platform, where regulary posters appear and make absurd claims (in general meant, no offence to you).
    Think again... The fact is that there are no broad consensus on what makes up and defines "fascism" - otherwise Wikipedia would not have some 13 different scholars, with 13 different ideas on how to define fascism, now would it? That means that there can not be a majority that agrees with your contention here as they can't even agree upon what fascism itself is in the first place. Furthermore, I have hardly made any extraordinary claims here - as you have suggest - by recognizing that there are evident differences between Nazism and fascism on several aspects - and some are rather important and distinct. The element of racism and its effects being the most significant of them all. As a result, my point is already valid, whether you like it or not. The question is what one should do about that circumstance. Should we ignore it? You are effectively advocating this... Or should we act upon it, and separate the two - because of the fact that they are different and distinct? ...Which is exactly what I am arguing here. Maybe the latter conclusion strikes you as extraordinary, but to me it just rational.


    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    I explained it clear enough, that Nationalsocialism belongs into the category of Fascism. And i would say, the overwhelming majority of related scholars agree with me (watch/study the according sources). I'm not here to entertain TWC'iers anymore, and thus certainly won't waste more time on this theme (i did in the past).
    The reality is that you have barely explained anything, and that is a major problem with your entire case btw. The failure to properly explain and substantiate your conclusions with actual basis and credible grounds is a significant flaw in your reasoning here. Frequently, I dare say... By simply declaring this and that you prove and establish nothing - other then your personal opinion perhaps. Unless you provide us with any actual cause as for why we should take you seriously here, there is essentially nothing from stopping us to - rightfully - dismiss you, your case, and your ideas here, as unserious. I take it this was not part of your plan, now was it?


    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    In the end it is very simple to understand: A Nazi is a Fascist, while not every Fascist is a Nazi. Fascism is a wide field with different shaping.
    But again, in the case of the German Nationalsocialism of the Third Reich and Mussolini's Fascism, it is pretty simple: The German Fascism "meets" all shape and form of the Italian Fascism. And on top of that, brought Fascism to its most extreme shaping, and this not only but especially with the Holocaust.
    I don't think you understand how ridiculous that sounds... I'll rephrase it, as to illustrate...

    Premise A: All Nazis are fascists...
    Premise B: Not all fascists are Nazis...
    Conclusion: Fascists and Nazis are still (supposedly) the same anyways. And thus, they should all be categorized as fascists….

    It does not add up... Its a logical fallacy as well, btw...


    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    And btw., you didn't adress my points and questions. If you would, or would at least actually think about them, you could see how wrong your point or approach is. You have already a basic knowledge (but somehow stopped it to let it grow properly), dig deeper and to its full potential, then you will have it.
    Correct, I did not address your previous points and questions - because I found them either already answered, or ridiculous, redundant, assuming (in a bad way), even presumptuous and often just irrelevant to the things that actually interest me here. As my time is limited, I thus chose to ignore it all due to the reasons outlined.

    Anyways, consider post:10 answered in full...


    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    It should be merely obvious for everybody with some minimum political/historical knowledge, that Nationalsocialism fits quasi 100 % into this scheme. And that renders every "debate" of "Nazism is distinct from Fascism" obsolete.
    Again, you assume way too much for your own good (or your case, for that matter). There are multiple problems with this statement - both in terms of the statement as such, its internal logics, the way its conclusions are argued and the model which the statement clearly depends and supports itself upon (among other things). As my time is limited, I will only comment on some stuff in all of this, because of the fact.

    Now, if something "fits quasi 100% into this scheme" - it actually means that it does not properly or fully fit into whatever scheme - it just appears that way, at a superficial and quick glance. Hardly a compelling argument to declare the debate of "Nazism is distinct from Fascism" obsolete, I think. Rather - I would argue - that it actually provides further grounds to continue that very debate, due to the fact (using your own argumentation here). Furthermore, it is never properly explained why this (supposed) end result should or can be argued/viewed as conclusive - it is just declared as such without any further explanation or supporting basis. Or even why this model is supposedly better or superior to others - or even why this specific model was selected in the first place - or any explanation as for why the other models were discarded. None of it is explained.... This is hardly the traits of a compelling case, now is it?

    The Gentile-model/scheme - on which your entire case is resting upon - is about defining and determining fascism (as E.Gentile understands the concept). This model is not designed to prove that fascism and Nazism is the same thing, or that it is supposedly rational to sort them both under fascism - as you argue. Because of that very circumstance, the models mechanics and framework are poorly adjusted (flawed even) to deal with this new task assigned to it (by you). The result being that it ultimately will fail to provide that conclusive evidence that you are expecting it to deliver here. It will never happen. And, I will explain why… Lets use the analogy of lions and tigers - to keep things simple. Now, lets say that we decide to construct a model/scheme with 10 criterions/statements (the exact details, does not matter) as to define and categorize lions and what sets them apart from other animals… As follows...

    1. Lions have eyes and ears...
    2. Lions have fur...
    3. Lions have tails...
    4. Lions have sharp and big teeth...
    5. Lions have paws and claws...
    6. Lions roars and snarls...
    7. Lions are very strong...
    8. Lions are big cats...
    9. Lions are dangerous to most other animals...
    10. Lions can kill humans...


    Now, by this model and its criterions/statements - which are all correct and accurate for lions… There are nothing stopping us here to accurately state that - based on these 10 statements - a tiger will answer in full to each and every point of this model. By that logic, the tiger could therefore be declared a lion as a result - according to the model. And because of that conclusion the tiger should be sorted and categorized accordingly - as a lion - using such logic. It should be obvious to all that this model is thus unable to distinguish between tigers and lions - as any such parameter(s) are simply ignored by it. Furthermore, we are also faced with the problem that the tiger still remains a tiger even after the model/scheme declares it a lion. Meaning the tiger simply continues to carry its distinct and special traits as a tiger - despite it might also have successfully ticked all 10 criterions of that model. The result is that we end up with a tiger in plain sight which is also showing various traits that lions don't have (such as black stripes, lack of mane, different behavior and fighting style etc.) while it is still categorized as a lion - because the model does not afford anything else. Because of this, it can never conclusively provide any credible evidence that all tigers are lions - as it is not capable of distinguishing them in the first place! And even if we did declare that are no such thing as tigers - the tigers would still exist as tigers anyways, they would not vanish somehow just because we made any such declarations. Now, same thing applies to your model and Nazism (as a form of fascism)…

    In short, it does not add up or hold water properly... That is, once we bother to put it under some sober and healthy scrutiny. As a result, your argument/position falls apart, as the Gentile-model can not really provide you with the support you need in order to maintain you assertion here (credibly anyways). I'll finish up with this point - the fact that you say that Nazism quasi fits 100% is actually an unintentional admittance that Nazism does not fit the Gentile-model all the way. Which ultimately means that you are actually proving my point for me (indirectly), right there. Namely, that Nazism and fascism is not really the same thing (despite many similarities), and should be kept apart due to the fact.…

    - A
    Last edited by Axalon; August 23, 2020 at 04:34 PM. Reason: clean up...

  11. #31

    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    While National-Socialism is definitely a type of socialism
    This is not so, not so at all. Just a common name, hitler completely denied real socialism (and wrote that this is not socialism). It has nothing to do with his idea, as well as the fascist regimes in many other countries, such as Iraq during the time of Saddam Hussein, etc.
    Now it is mainly used to discredit the ideas of socialism, but has nothing to do with it.

    In general, quite a lot has been written here, I decided to answer what immediately caught my eye.
    People always have been the foolish victims of deception and self-deception in politics, and they always will be, until they have learned to seek out the interests of some class or other behind all moral, religious, political and social phrases, declarations and promises
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  12. #32

    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by youneuoy View Post
    This is not so, not so at all. Just a common name, hitler completely denied real socialism (and wrote that this is not socialism). It has nothing to do with his idea, as well as the fascist regimes in many other countries, such as Iraq during the time of Saddam Hussein, etc.
    Now it is mainly used to discredit the ideas of socialism, but has nothing to do with it.

    In general, quite a lot has been written here, I decided to answer what immediately caught my eye.
    Nope, see the video posted above.
    Germany under Hitler hasn't done anything that wasn't done under many other socialist regimes in the past century.
    I guess the whole "Hitler wasn't a socialist" can be attributed to post-war damage control among the leftists (hence their inclination to use term "Nazis" or "German fascists" instead of "National-Socialist") as well as lack of education. It is indeed ironic that modern leftists know so little of their own ideology, so it doesn't surprise one when they say that typical socialist regime of 30s Germany wasn't "real socialism".

  13. #33

    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    1) Mussolini was a paradigm for Franco and Salazar
    One thing is talking the talk, another is walking the walk. Portugal was Neutral in WWII, and such diplomacy is very hard mainly if you hardly condemn one of the sides as "pure evil".
    Forging of a Fascist Alliance? Then why were we Neutral in WWII while the fascists like Mussolini were starting their wars?
    I'd rather judge a person by what he did, than by what he parrots, or propaganda around him. He (Or the Old Regime) got us Neutrality from the Deadliest War of Europe. That alone is an achievment.

    That said, the Second Republic was obviously an Autocracy that practiced censorship. What would one expect of a Regime started by an Armed Forces Coup D'Etat? It could potentially be described as a "military dictatorship" for its early years. Salazar ended up being the poster boy of the Regime, but no one other who started the Old Regime were our Armed Forces after WWI. They likely found our involvement in WWI as senseless policy making.

    Regardless one should try to make the most of the Third Republic possible. We never know if the following one can be worse, or if the Third Republic just needs some introspection and afterwards a few reforms. Plus we are living in Third Republic and breathing, and many fruits from it can be picked, so why not take our time trying to improve the Third Republic in which Portugal lives now instead of torturing ourselves over the past?
    The stability of our current government comes from a Democratic agreement between the Left Wing and the Right Wing. Were it not the case we would be in Pandemonium after the consequences of the third IMF bailout.

    Now, for those confused by the intent of my post, is that the post was anti-war, and realizing that having masses of people condemning the other masses because they sympathise with different ideological conclusions is a great recipe for starting War.
    I can understand such things happen because we are all searching for something, and Ideology appears to be what we were searching for.
    Simply because they had different conclusions, and thought their were important enough to die for, but isn't it sad? to see people killing one another?
    Last edited by fkizz; August 24, 2020 at 06:13 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  14. #34
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Might I ask how they were they elitist exactly? In what way would you argue this a salient trait? In what practical sense?
    In a practical sense, ask Hitler, "with us, the Führer and the idea are one, and each member of the party must do what the Führer, who is the is the embodiment of the idea and the only one who knows the ultimate goal, commands."

    Or ask the Dux Leader (Duce).

    In 1922, after the march on Rome, which causes the King to put Mussolini in power with dictatorial powers for one year (1922-1923) , Mussolini uses the Blackshirts to secure more and more power under him over the next two years, under the Italian acronym MVSN ( 23-25) .
    Then he gets the legislators to pass the Acerbo Law In 1925 (as long as the largest party in Parliament gets 25% of the vote, they will get 2/3 of the seats in Parliament. The question is why the legislators pass this? because at this point the fascists the dominant party. It's an easy answer: the black shirts were present in the room as an element of pure intimidation.

    The irony is that the law was unnecessary, in 1924, when you actually have elections, you have the fascist getting 2/3 of the vote. Many today and many in Italy at the time felt that this was a fraudulent election. At the time, Giacomo Matteotti gave two strong speeches where he talks about the corruption and the violence of the fascists.
    A few days after those speeches, he gets killed by Blackshirts. To protest against the murder of Giacomo, you actually have the entire socialist party boycotts Parliament. This was known as the 20th century Aventine Secession, if you go back to Roman times 2500 years ago, you had the plebeians secede out of protest from harsh rule and they go to the Aventine Hill.

    The whole reason why the socialists did this is they hoped that by boycotting Parliament that would convince the King to get rid of Mussolini; and so in early 1925, Mussolini makes his famous January speech and this is normally viewed as the formal start his absolute dictatorship, he bans the Socialist Party, he gives a classic Mussolini style convoluted argument about how strength and violence is going to give stability to the Italian people.
    By the end of 1925, you have the Christmas Eve Law that puts no checks on Mussolini's power. In 1926 the more and more fascist take absolute power, absolute control of Italy. In 1926, other parties are banned. They started to force people to become members of the fascist party, and starting to take control of the press, they were starting to have a very strong police architecture. This looks familiar on what we know about the nazis is not a coincidence. Hitler admired Mussolini.
    Mussolini's march on Rome inspired Hitler to attempt his Beer Hall Putsch in 1923.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    the whole thing strikes me as an expression of Mussolini's unbothered opportunism and lack of personal character/code - rather then some genuine element of fascism... to me, the only one rational conclusion is that racism and anti-Semitism was not really a part of the fascist agenda.. Italo Balbo..
    For neo-fascist lovers, Italo Balbo and his man were patriots struggling to save Italy, and Mussolini was not a true fascist. He became a racist anti-Semite just to please Hitler.

    It's not true. The great German American historian, George Mosse, wrote in 1999,
    By 1936 Mussolini had embraced racism. We shall never know whether Mussolini himself became a convinced racist, but he did increase the severity in the draft of the racial laws which had been submitted to him. Mussolini may have embraced racism out of opportunism, or to give Fascism a clearly defined enemy, to give a new cause to a young generation. At the time of the racial laws the dictator was enthusiastic, not a sceptic"
    Italo Balbo was not an hero, in Italy's invasion of Ethiopia, the air force built by Balbo would carpet-bomb cities, kill thousands of civilians and systematically drench large areas with poison gas.

    In Chicago, The Balbo monument in Chicago is a national embarrassment . The inscription is now weathered,
    FASCIST ITALY BY COMMAND OF BENITO MUSSOLINI
    PRESENTS TO CHICAGO
    EXALTATION SYMBOL MEMORIAL
    OF THE ATLANTIC SQUADRON LED BY BALBO
    THAT WITH ROMAN DARING FLEW ACROSS THE OCEAN
    IN THE ELEVENTH YEAR
    OF THE FASCIST ERA




    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    And what was the difference in that regard to lets say the CCCP
    Stalin promoted himself to dictator; Mussolini rejected egalitarianism, a core doctrine of socialism.
    ----------
    In fact, Nazism and fascism are two sides of the same coin. An historical curiosity. There is a(little known) link between the antifascist Spanish Republic, the hymn La Marseillaise, and Nazism. The "Himno de Riego" was the Republican hymn in the years between 1931 and 1939.

    The Spanish Republic was welcomed in the streets with crowds singing La Marseillaise, a semi official hymn of the Spanish Republic, according to legislation (29 april 1931) passed by the Ministry of War (source, professor Antonino M. Pérez). La Marseillaise became quite popular during the Republican's years as a symbol of the Spanish resistance to fascist revolutionaries. In 1940, the francoist regime forbade La Marseillaise, and the penalty was summary execution.
    You can hear an excellent rendition of La Marseillaise here (1). As we know already, La Marseillaise": France's national anthem is causing tension
    but it was also a symbol of the French resistance against the Nazi German.
    (1)
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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  15. #35

    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Nope, see the video posted above.
    Germany under Hitler hasn't done anything that wasn't done under many other socialist regimes in the past century.
    I guess the whole "Hitler wasn't a socialist" can be attributed to post-war damage control among the leftists (hence their inclination to use term "Nazis" or "German fascists" instead of "National-Socialist") as well as lack of education. It is indeed ironic that modern leftists know so little of their own ideology, so it doesn't surprise one when they say that typical socialist regime of 30s Germany wasn't "real socialism".
    Are you referring to this video as a source seriously? Also, in the last message I wrote not only about Hitler, there were many such fake socialists.
    The socialist regime does not provide for the capitalist structure of the economy. The socialist regime does not provide for the fusion of the state and big capital. The socialist regime does not provide for the complete defeat of the labor movement. And the list goes on)
    Small elements of social policy do not make systems socialist. Especially if they are made only to destroy the labor movement, all socialist measures under capitalism are temporary.


    Do you seriously think that this can lead to socialism (in short) ?:

    the bourgeoisie offended by the defeat in the war, already eaten away by the 30s at the expense of foreign loans (including repaying all debts due to the extremely high level of inflation)

    a large number of monarchist and nationalist organizations actively funded (google "Der Stahlhelm", etc.)

    actively suppressed labor movement (including by the liberal authorities of the Weimar Republic, also acting in the interests of capital), the demand of capital to abolish the restriction on the length of the working day in general, etc.


    Further, do you seriously think that it is possible under socialism ?:

    capitalist economy, lack of public ownership of the means of production

    the occupation of many government posts by representatives of big business (who combined these posts with positions in their firms), in fact, the capital itself wrote out state orders for itself, since the days of the empire, little has changed in this regard)

    Slave work

    concentration camps, where without them (including children's, including private)

    capital closely related to foreign (German large capitalist enterprises traded throughout the war)

    The list goes on and on.


    A little in conclusion, about the distinctive qualities of "German socialism", as well as about the justice of the capitalist system:

    one of the key points that influenced the financing of Hitler and his support by German capital (before that he had scanty chances of any political influence) was his agreement that he agreed to make so many government orders on such conditions, which are necessary for capital (before that the capitalists supported different parties, and this has already become a turning point).

    trade during the war (for example, American standart oil and German IG Farben, their cooperation was terminated by force some time after the US entered the war, after they suffered significant losses due to a lack of materials caused by this cooperation, for example, in synthetic rubber, the research of which was prohibited by the largest American firms by agreement with German firms on the division of sales markets).

    sale by one of the largest capitalist enterprises (krupps) of government bonds worth more than 140 million Reichsmarks in small lots, starting in 1943. This year, "effective managers" realized that the war was lost and decided that this way they could disassociate themselves from the government.

    short terms for representatives of German capital at the small Nuremberg trials, as well as their speedy amnesty and even the return of their "property" (including the organizers of private concentration camps).

    Output:

    I can give a huge number of arguments, this is only a small part of them.


    you are completely unfamiliar with the material.


    Hitler himself, as well as the largest ideologues of the Nazis, dissociated themselves from the socialists and rejected socialism.


    Further:

    I recommend that you familiarize yourself a little with the material, for the beginning of the fairly small Nuremberg trials (100% reliable sources), and then get acquainted with the socialist theory. Further, it is necessary to compare this with the ideas of fascism (not populist slogans). It is also necessary to compare the economic component (this is the most important point).


    Of course, this is more difficult than watching short, meaningless videos on the Internet, but it cannot be otherwise, alas.
    Last edited by youneuoy; August 24, 2020 at 08:55 PM.
    People always have been the foolish victims of deception and self-deception in politics, and they always will be, until they have learned to seek out the interests of some class or other behind all moral, religious, political and social phrases, declarations and promises
    medieval 2 total war engine overhaul project

  16. #36

    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    The socialist regime does not provide for the capitalist structure of the economy. The socialist regime does not provide for the fusion of the state and big capital. The socialist regime does not provide for the complete defeat of the labor movement. And the list goes on)
    USSR wasn't a socialist regime? Lenin introduced market economy with NAP, and Stalin's USSR's economy heavily relied on "artels", privately-owned companies that produced certain material goods. Interesting.
    a large number of monarchist and nationalist organizations actively funded (google "Der Stahlhelm", etc.)
    Plenty of socialist regimes were very nationalistic: Mao's China, Minh's Vietnam, even 40s USSR had to reverse the whole internationalist gobbledygook and embrace vague nationalistic and patriotic sentiments as hundreds of thousands of Russians, Balts and many others ran to join Germans to fight against communists in WW2.
    one of the key points that influenced the financing of Hitler and his support by German capital
    That's exactly how USSR's regime came to be. Lenin was a German spy that was funded by German vary capitalist government.

    I guess it is fair to point out that socialism is rarely an occurrence of its own. Marxist movements have always been a tool for capitalist entities to destabilize their competitors (as we saw with Russia and Germany in WW1).

    In conclusion, as we see that fascist movements of 30s were just a branch of socialism overall, one can point out that all collectivist ideologies that want to give power to Big Daddy government are kinda the same.

  17. #37
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    the Second Republic was obviously an Autocracy
    The second Republic was a democracy when in 1931 a constitution was approved and a constitutional Republic was established.

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    such diplomacy is very hard mainly if you hardly condemn one of the sides as "pure evil".
    I have no doubt whatsoever that the nazi/fascist alliance was pure evil.
    ----
    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Neutrality
    In 1940,following the blitzkrieg in Europe, and the fall of France, Goering advised Hitler to occupy Spain and Gibraltar. One corpse , under Ludwig Kubler, was to cross Spain and assault Gibraltar(operation Félix). It also mentioned the potential invasion of Portugal if the British gained a foothold in the country. The German-Spanish invasion would inevitably lead Portugal into war, and the loss of political independence to Spain.
    Franco's detailed plan to invade Portugal was serious- if Spain ceased to be a neutral country- to go to war alongside the Berlin-Rome axis (source Manuel Ros Agudo, Spanish historian),a plan that Franco kept secret until his death. The document includes maps of the route the army must follow. (250,000 soldiers by land who would move along two lines to divide the country into three, to facilitate the control of the territory).
    At the same time, the Spanish air force would attack enemy air bases in Portugal.

    Many falangists cherished dreams of conquest of Portugal and cooperation within the Nazi New Order for Europe. At the time, contemporary publications and propaganda emphasized the idea that it was a German-dominated Europe that the Blue Division was fighting to, and within which Spain would be able to recapture its former glory.
    Speaking at Madrid's Estación del Norte in July 1941, the falangist Minister of Foreign Affairs, Serrano Suñer, told departing troops that: "You go to contribute to the foundation of European unity, homogeneity and peace"
    Troops sang on the march to relieve boredom,
    "Só esperamos pela ordem que nos dê o nosso general/ para apagar a fronteira que fica entre Espanha Portugal"."We just wait for our general's order/ to erase the border between Spain and Portugal"

    Servile, and abjectly paralyzed, The Estado Novo/Salazar was divided between the loyalty to the oldest alliance in the world-the Treaty of Windsor,1386- an important tool to guarantee the independence and territorial integrity of the country, and the obvious ideological affinities with fascist Italy and Nazi Germany.
    I see no virtue where I smell fear.
    Last edited by Ludicus; August 25, 2020 at 11:03 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  18. #38

    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    USSR wasn't a socialist regime? Lenin introduced market economy with NAP, and Stalin's USSR's economy heavily relied on "artels", privately-owned companies that produced certain material goods. Interesting.

    Plenty of social
    NAP was introduced only for a short time. Socialism cannot be built on a bare wasteland. And some party members did not understand this decision, there were even suicides, etc. After all, I am writing to you in the most simplified way, and if I wrote so, then it was so. I do not take this from Wikipedia and I do not take it from a 15-minute video.
    Further:

    From the 1936 Constitution:

    Article 1. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is a socialist state of workers and peasants.
    ...
    Article 4. The economic basis of the USSR is formed by the socialist economic system and socialist ownership of instruments and means of production, established as a result of the liquidation of the capitalist economic system, the abolition of private ownership of instruments and means of production and the abolition of the exploitation of man by man.
    Article 5. Socialist property in the USSR has either the form of state property (national property) or the form of cooperative-collective farm property (property of individual collective farms, property of cooperative associations).

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    ist regimes were very nationalistic: Mao's China, Minh's Vietnam, even 40s USSR had to reverse the whole internationalist gobbledygook and embrace vague nationalistic and patriotic sentiments as hundreds of thousands of Russians, Balts and many others ran to join Germans to fight against communists in WW2.
    oh oh oh, how bad it is with you.
    In short, according to ww2 (this is the most simple and understandable):
    the ussr is an international state
    after the civil war there are still hostile elements(not everyone likes socialism, for example, those who used to be a large owner)
    these hostile elements actively fueled nationalist sentiments in the republics
    do you know about the crimes of collaborationists? If not, then you will have many wonderful discoveries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    That's exactly how USSR's regime came to be. Lenin was a German spy that was funded by German vary capitalist government.
    I guess it is fair to point out that socialism is rarely an occurrence of its own. Marxist movements have always been a tool for capitalist entities to destabilize their competitors (as we saw with Russia and Germany in WW1).
    nope. You are wandering in the fog.
    The simplest argument for you:if Lenin was a German spy, then Goebbels would tell everyone about it and show the documents. More precisely, this is simply impossible. Lenin is the enemy of the capitalists, everyone in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    In conclusion, as we see that fascist movements of 30s were just a branch of socialism overall, one can point out that all collectivist ideologies that want to give power to Big Daddy government are kinda the same.
    how did you come to such remarkable conclusions? This is complete nonsense. Are you a troll or a fool? You ignored everything I wrote to you and tried to find something to get hold of.
    Last edited by youneuoy; August 25, 2020 at 11:49 AM.
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  19. #39

    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    NAP was introduced only for a short time.
    "Artel's " existed until Stalin's death and in later USSR there were various venues for small private entrepreneurship as well.
    oh oh oh, how bad it is with you.
    In short, according to ww2 (this is the most simple and understandable):
    the ussr is an international state
    after the civil war there are still hostile elements(not everyone likes socialism, for example, those who used to be a large owner)
    these hostile elements actively fueled nationalist sentiments in the republics
    do you know about the crimes of collaborationists? If not, then you will have many wonderful discoveries.
    Um, this has nothing to do with the fact that many socialist regimes were nationalistic.
    Also I'd suggest looking up the crimes committed by Lenin and Stalin, including red terror, massive famines, genocide and political repressions. This explains why many patriotic people like Vlasov and former White emigrants (Russians that fought for freedom during Russian Civil War like generals Krasnov, Shkuro and Smyslovsky, basically the good guys of Russian Civil War) chose Germans as lesser evil, while themselves being ideologically far from Hitler's authoritarian socialist ideals. Some, like Denikin, viewed both Stalin and Hitler as "all the same".
    he simplest argument for you:if Lenin was a German spy, then Goebbels would tell everyone about it and show the documents. More precisely, this is simply impossible. Lenin is the enemy of the capitalists, everyone in general.
    Um, you do realize that this is a confirmed fact, right? Lenin received funding from Kaiser government (no idea why you brought up Goebbels into this when it happened 15 years before NSDAP came to power and would make no sense for them to talk about that discrediting factor). Lenin was a tool of German capitalists to de-stabilize Russia. I mean modern socialists are rather capitalist tools today as well, just look at how modern domestic terrorist groups of left-wing variety, such as antifa and others, receive funding from NGOs that are owned by billionaires like Soros.

    how did you come to such remarkable conclusions? This is complete nonsense. Are you a troll or a fool? You ignored everything I wrote to you and tried to find something to get hold of.
    Are you saying that socialists like lenin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin and Mao were not authoritarian? That's rich.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Understanding Fascism

    @ Ludicus

    Wondering why you don't mention the Condor Legion in the matter that you layed out about Spain etc., and its backgrounds.
    Another source: https://www.historynet.com/spanish-c...-air-power.htm

    Furtheron, to understand the rise of the historical Fascism since WW1, with as said roots in the 19th century, one must know about the European fascist movements at the time. It wasn't just an Italian and German occurance alone. Diverse sources about the theme complex post WW1 as follows:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fascist_movements

    https://history.howstuffworks.com/hi...orld-war-1.htm

    https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-onlin..._radical_right

    http://blogs.bu.edu/guidedhistory/mo...atherine-shen/

    https://courses.lumenlearning.com/bo...se-of-fascism/

    https://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/rs...CISM%20rev.htm
    Last edited by DaVinci; August 25, 2020 at 03:21 PM.
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