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Thread: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

  1. #21
    pchalk's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are blindfolded and led to boxcars in drone footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    It isn't delusional. History shows this has happened before regardless of the government's ideology. This isn't as simple as an evil communist government doing bad things.

    Godwin's law won't save you. Arguing this oppression is a result of the communism is just ignorance and you blatantly ignoring the history of the Uyghurs and their history in China. I'll ask the same question POVG did.

    Would the fate of the Uyghurs be different if it wasn't a communist government ruling over them?
    You are correct in saying the answer is not as simple as it being the evil commies are at work. But unless I am misunderstanding you, it would be wrong to say that China's communism does not play a role. You say "it is about control than simple ideology" but that is exactly what communism in practice is about in almost every practical case: control. To answer your last question, without knowing more details of this alternative government it would be difficult to give a solid answer. Assuming a fair and stable democracy were in place I would argue yes it could be different.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are blindfolded and led to boxcars in drone footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by pchalk View Post
    You are correct in saying the answer is not as simple as it being the evil commies are at work. But unless I am misunderstanding you, it would be wrong to say that China's communism does not play a role. You say "it is about control than simple ideology" but that is exactly what communism in practice is about in almost every practical case: control. To answer your last question, without knowing more details of this alternative government it would be difficult to give a solid answer. Assuming a fair and stable democracy were in place I would argue yes it could be different.
    Control is also an aspect of authoritarianism in general. The point is the oppression of Uyghurs has to do with them being separatists and not China simply perpetuating the communist ideology.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Uighurs in China are blindfolded and led to boxcars in drone footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by pchalk View Post
    You are correct in saying the answer is not as simple as it being the evil commies are at work. But unless I am misunderstanding you, it would be wrong to say that China's communism does not play a role. You say "it is about control than simple ideology" but that is exactly what communism in practice is about in almost every practical case: control. To answer your last question, without knowing more details of this alternative government it would be difficult to give a solid answer. Assuming a fair and stable democracy were in place I would argue yes it could be different.
    Indeed. This ethnocide is much more than the old fashioned, autocratic repression that the Uighurs suffered under previous regimes; it bears all the hallmarks of surgical ideological enforcement.

    From the Mail:

    Dawn breaks in the crowded prison cell. Not everyone is asleep — conditions are so cramped in the 70-square-yard space that 15 of the 60 inmates have to stand to give others their turn to lie down. The lack of privacy is absolute. Toilet breaks are rationed — two minutes at a time — and in full gaze of the others. Glass walls, cameras and microphones mean that every word and deed is recorded. Informants placed in each cell even note down what people say in their sleep and pass it on to guards. As with every other day, the morning begins with compulsory singing of Communist Party songs, praising the glorious motherland and its wise leader, Xi Jinping. Then their only meal of the day arrives. Watery cabbage soup, served with a small lump of steamed dough. If they’re lucky, they may get a few grains of rice as well.

    And then the medication arrives in a form of a white pill. To be sure they’ve taken it, the prisoners’ mouths are roughly forced open and searched. The mysterious drug — a tranquilliser of some sort — soon induces a state of miserable mental numbness. Thoughts and memories of life outside, the fate of loved ones, the pain of shattered hopes: all recede. Now the only aim is to get through the day. Such a scene is being played out in any one of China’s secret concentration camps, dedicated to ‘re-educating’ a million or more of the country’s Muslim Uighur population in a network of hundreds of institutions built across 640,000 square miles of Western China: an area seven times the size of Britain. Every detail of this harrowing description of life inside the ‘Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region’ — its native Uighurs call it ‘East Turkestan’ — comes from accounts that have trickled out of the region and from a huge package of internal Communist Party documents leaked last year by a brave official, disgusted by the policies he was implementing. They are confirmed by survivor testimony collated by Rahima Mahmut of the London office of the World Uyghur Congress and by Human Rights Watch, a New York based campaign group.


    Internet detectives have also used publicly available satellite images to plot the growth of the camps. On Sunday, Beijing’s UK ambassador Liu Xiaoming was quizzed by Andrew Marr about drone footage, taken in 2018, showing hundreds of Uighur men, kneeling, shaven-headed, shackled and blindfolded, being led from a train, in what appeared to be a transfer of prisoners.
    After a lengthy and embarrassed pause, the ambassador responded with bluster and denial. ‘Uighur people enjoy peaceful, harmonious coexistence with other ethnic groups of people,’ he insisted, dismissing the footage as ‘so-called Western intelligence’. Certainly nothing ‘peaceful’ or ‘harmonious’ marks the inmates’ daily routine. Morning is indoctrination. Inmates — hundreds of them, all shaven-headed — sit in a vast echoing room, listening to hours of lectures on the evils of religion. The instructors’ words are broken by rhythmic chanting of Communist Party slogans. All communication is in Chinese. For the inmates to mutter even a word in their own ancient language — a dialect similar to Uzbek — would be a sign of defiance and bring terrifying retribution.


    The monotony of the lessons is mental torture. At the end of the class, inmates are asked ‘is there a God?’ The only permitted answer is ‘no’. Every waking moment is an onslaught on their cherished beliefs and traditions. The half-starved inmates are even forced to eat pork and drink alcohol, in defiance of their Muslim faith. Afternoon brings interrogations. To break their mental resistance, inmates are forced to watch others being tortured before their own sessions of questioning. They are made to denounce friends and family, to confess to fictitious crimes such as bomb-making and espionage, and to express abject contrition — even for such harmless acts as having a copy of the Koran. Any resistance brings beatings, electric shocks and sleep deprivation. Nakedness is another dehumanising tactic. Nudity is taboo in Islam, but prisoners of all ages are made to parade before each other and in view of the guards. For women, humiliating gynaecological inspections are mandatory. Rape is routine. The prettier younger women disappear at nights and weep silently during the day. An injection every 15 days appears to be forced contraception — monthly periods cease.Worst of all is the dreaded orange tabard. Prisoners assigned these soon disappear, never to be seen again. Rumour has it that they are murdered for their organs — kidneys, corneas, hearts and livers are looted from their bodies, to fund the lucrative international black market, or serve the needs of the Communist Party elite.

    For the nine million other Uighurs living in the Western Chinese province of Xinjiang who are lucky enough not to be confined in such camps, life is another kind of prison. Every movement is under video camera surveillance backed up by intrusive searches. Police vans patrol the streets, searching for any sign of suspicious behaviour and mounting random checks. Checkpoints are every 200 yards. Worse are the ubiquitous plainclothes police, silently observing public behaviour. A single careless word or deed — perhaps a small show of faith — is punishable by incarceration and brain-washing. Little word leaks out of the fate of those who are taken away. Their families are sometimes told that they died in traffic accidents. Those who return are so traumatised that they rarely speak of their ordeal. Possession of any books, newspapers or any electronic material that could signal disloyalty to the Chinese regime is punished. No expression of religious belief is permitted. Almost all mosques, along with cemeteries, have been bulldozed. Mosques are empty shells, with worship staged only to deceive outsiders. Even a Koran or a prayer mat is a dangerous sign of disloyalty.The micro-management extends to household possessions. Kitchen knives with blades longer than four inches, for example, must be engraved with a barcode identifying the owner, and must be chained to a wall or table. Children are used as informers. School classes are shown Arabic script and asked if they recognise it.


    Those who do have unwittingly highlighted that their families are believers who read the Koran. Such ‘disloyalty’ often leads to children being removed — in effect kidnapped — and sent to state-run boarding schools, even at the age of five. There they are indoctrinated to despise their families, religion, culture and native language. Asking about the fate of the people who have disappeared is dangerous. They are referred to as ‘yoq’, meaning ‘not around’. Incarceration in the concentration camps is called ‘studying’. The fate of women left at home when their menfolk are sent to the camps is particularly horrific. They are assigned a Chinese official to live in their home to monitor the family. These unwelcome guests intrude into every aspect of domestic life — and often insist on occupying the empty place in the marital bed.





  4. #24

    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews compares the CCP's treatment of the Uighurs to the Holocaust in a letter to the Chinese ambassador to the UK.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  5. #25
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    I think this particular issue, there is a lot of room to find commonality no matter where we sit on the political spectrum.

    Extreme government is problematic, whether it is influenced by Marx or Moeller van den Bruck. In some respects. Government that has at it's base an extreme rejection of either individual or collective best interests is always going to end up doing harm.

    In this case, we can't really blame Marx. What the Chinese government is doing is a nationalist bastardisation that is very much edging towards a racist and totalitarian capitalism designed to keep a small elite in power rather than seeking to achieve a global communist fantasy land. I'm fairly certain Marx would reject it outright. Having traditional "communist" governmental institutions counts for nothing when they're utilised to do non-communist things.

    Either way - and for clarity of conversation, this is the most important part of my post - I don't think we need to view this through a left/right paradigm at all.

    This is just an expression of absolute power through enforced absolute collective compliance or else. The Uighurs are experiencing the or else part. This is a leadership cadre in Beijing saying: "Your ethnic group expresses difference. Difference is dangerous, so that means your ethnic group is dangerous. Therefore we will either change you into an acceptable ethnicity, or end you". I think in this situation we can put aside Godwin's law. Because comparisons with the holocaust are apt. There may not be gas chambers, but I'm pretty sure forced sterilisation is just a friendlier, slower way of achieving the same ends. The persons making the decisions here don't care for communism, capitalism, whateverism. Those are just means to an end to be used to maintain power.

    As I seem to be saying in a lot of threads lately, this is just a bunch of !@$& alphas waving their genitalia about. It's like we're goats butting heads.
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    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are blindfolded and led to boxcars in drone footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by pchalk View Post
    You are correct in saying the answer is not as simple as it being the evil commies are at work. But unless I am misunderstanding you, it would be wrong to say that China's communism does not play a role. You say "it is about control than simple ideology" but that is exactly what communism in practice is about in almost every practical case: control. To answer your last question, without knowing more details of this alternative government it would be difficult to give a solid answer. Assuming a fair and stable democracy were in place I would argue yes it could be different.
    Those that view China in a bad light, really need to understand that in a world built around the mega money of global capitalism, the interests of the Chinese Communist regime and large Western companies, have become quite blurred and in many cases symbiotic.

    Inside China’s Push to Turn Muslim Minorities Into an Army of Workers
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/30/w...ims-labor.html
    The Communist Party wants to remold Xinjiang’s minorities into loyal blue-collar workers to supply Chinese factories with cheap labor.
    China transferred detained Uighurs to factories used by global brands
    At least 80,000 Uighurs working under ‘conditions that strongly suggest forced labour’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-brands-report
    At least 80,000 Uighurs have been transferred from Xinjiang province, some of them directly from detention centres, to factories across China that make goods for dozens of global brands, according to a report from the Canberra-based Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI).

    Using open-source public documents, satellite imagery, and media reports, the institute identified 27 factories in nine Chinese provinces that have used labourers transferred from re-education centres in Xinjiang since 2017 as part of a programme known as “Xinjiang aid”.

    In conditions that “strongly suggest forced labour”, the report says, workers live in segregated dormitories, are required to study Mandarin and undergo ideological training. They are frequently subjected to surveillance and barred from observing religious practices. According to government documents analysed by the ASPI, workers are often assigned minders and have limited freedom of movement.

    The factories were part of supply chains providing goods for 83 global brands, the report found, including Apple, Nike and Volkswagen among others.
    China: 83 major brands implicated in report on forced labour of ethnic minorities from Xinjiang assigned to factories across provinces; Includes company responses
    [url]https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/china-83-major-brands-implicated-in-report-on-forced-labour-of-ethnic-minorities-from-xinjiang-assigned-to-factories-across-provinces-includes-company-responses
    It would be a tall order to convince me that senior executives in these companies were completely unaware what was going on. Given what went on in WW2 using slave labour, you would think the likes of Volkswagen would know better. Seems to me there are a lot of "Johny Come Lately" voices speeking about an issue which has been going on for some time and which was widely known about.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Uighurs in China are blindfolded and led to boxcars in drone footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    It would be a tall order to convince me that senior executives in these companies were completely unaware what was going on. Given what went on in WW2 using slave labour, you would think the likes of Volkswagen would know better. Seems to me there are a lot of "Johny Come Lately" voices speeking about an issue which has been going on for some time and which was widely known about.
    Unfortunately you are correct. It has been widely known for decades that China practices human rights abuses on a scale not seen anywhere else in the modern world, with forced labor the least of it. But the options to deal with it are limited:

    1: Invade China. This would likely involve worldwide economic collapse, millions of deaths both civilian and military on all sides (and if we add in the inevitable famine and disease, hundreds of millions), and could easily lead to nuclear war.

    2: Economic sanctions. With the increasing economic power of China and the disastrous lack of leadership ability and economic knowledge Trump has displayed, these are unlikely to be very effective.

    3: A widespread populist movement boycotting Chinese-made goods. I see this as the only realistic option.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are blindfolded and led to boxcars in drone footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    Unfortunately you are correct. It has been widely known for decades that China practices human rights abuses on a scale not seen anywhere else in the modern world, with forced labor the least of it. But the options to deal with it are limited:

    1: Invade China. This would likely involve worldwide economic collapse, millions of deaths both civilian and military on all sides (and if we add in the inevitable famine and disease, hundreds of millions), and could easily lead to nuclear war.

    2: Economic sanctions. With the increasing economic power of China and the disastrous lack of leadership ability and economic knowledge Trump has displayed, these are unlikely to be very effective.

    3: A widespread populist movement boycotting Chinese-made goods. I see this as the only realistic option.
    Honestly,it will probably break down sooner or later at its own.

    The total control will jsut get tighter and better. More and more stuff will be deemed extreme and to be eliminated. And as system will become more and more paranoid, more and more money will be put into control. Social system will start limiting basic rights...travelling, education, effectively creating caste system in the end the whole state will focus inward with hard ability to compete with others. Such enviroment is total killer for free thinking, development. Great for copying, spying but developing at its own. It is always easier to catch others then to lead world. West world is not perfect but at least it is offering illusion of freedom. What is promise of China to the future? Be our slaves? China first...
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    People have predicted China's fall before. Its system has faults but don't count on it to cause China's downfall.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Honestly,it will probably break down sooner or later at its own
    This was what the political establishment decided in the wake of Tiananmen. And so, it was said, the best way to facilitate this sentiment was to maximize economic and political engagement with the Politburo. No tyranny can withstand the assault of modernization, capitalism and pluralistic societal norms; after all, look at the USSR, look at Western Europe after the Marshall Plan. Trillions of dollars’ worth of foreign investment in China later, here we are.

    In short, MacArthur was right.
    The Communist threat is a global one. Its successful advance in one sector threatens the destruction of every other sector. You can not appease or otherwise surrender to communism in Asia without simultaneously undermining our efforts to halt its advance in Europe.

    While I was not consulted prior to the President's decision to intervene in support of the Republic of Korea, that decision from a military standpoint proved a sound one. As I said, it proved to be a sound one, as we hurled back the invader and decimated his forces. Our victory was complete, and our objectives within reach, when Red China intervened with numerically superior ground forces. This created a new war and an entirely new situation, a situation not contemplated when our forces were committed against the North Korean invaders; a situation which called for new decisions in the diplomatic sphere to permit the realistic adjustment of our military strategy. Such decisions have not been forthcoming.

    I called for reinforcements, but was informed that reinforcements were not available. I made clear that if not permitted to destroy the enemy built-up bases north of the Yalu, if not permitted to utilize the friendly Chinese Force of some 600,000 men on Formosa, if not permitted to blockade the China coast to prevent the Chinese Reds from getting succor from without, and if there was to be no hope of major reinforcements, the position of the command from the military standpoint forbade victory. We could hold in Korea by constant maneuver and in an approximate area where our supply line advantages were in balance with the supply line disadvantages of the enemy, but we could hope at best for only an indecisive campaign with its terrible and constant attrition upon our forces if the enemy utilized its full military potential have constantly called for the new political decisions essential to a solution.

    Efforts have been made to distort my position. It has been said in effect that I was a warmonger. Nothing could be further from the truth. I know war as few other men now living know it, and nothing to me is more revolting. I have long advocated its complete abolition, as its very destructiveness on both friend and foe has rendered it useless as a means of settling international disputes.

    But once war is forced upon us, there is no other alternative than to apply every available means to bring it to a swift end. War's very object is victory, not prolonged indecision. In war there can be no substitute for victory.

    There are some who for varying reasons would appease Red China. They are blind to history's clear lesson, for history teaches with unmistakable emphasis that appeasement but begets new and bloodier wars. It points to no single .instance where this end has justified that means, where appeasement has led to more than a sham peace. Like blackmail, it lays the basis for new and successively greater demands until, as in blackmail, violence becomes the only other alternative.

    Some may say: to avoid spread of the conflict into an all-out war with China; others, to avoid Soviet intervention. Neither explanation seems valid, for China is already engaging with the maximum power it can commit, and the Soviet will not necessarily mesh its actions with our moves. Like a cobra, any new enemy will more likely strike whenever it feels that the relativity in military or other potential is in its favor on a world-wide basis.

    https://www.americanrhetoric.com/spe...elladdress.htm
    “The Tribunal’s members are certain - unanimously, and sure beyond reasonable doubt - that in China forced organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience has been practiced for a substantial period of time involving a very substantial number of victims.”

    Forced organ harvesting has been committed for years throughout China on a significant scale and that Falun Gong practitioners have been one - and probably the main - source of organ supply. The concerted persecution and medical testing of the Uyghurs is more recent and it may be that evidence of forced organ harvesting of this group may emerge in due course. The Tribunal has had no evidence that the significant infrastructure associated with China’s transplantation industry has been dismantled and absent a satisfactory explanation as to the source of readily available organs concludes that forced organ harvesting continues till today.

    In regard to the Uyghurs the Tribunal had evidence of medical testing on a scale that could allow them, amongst other uses, to become an ‘organ bank’. The world is already watching their interests and their geographical location – although very large - may render it possible to lend them support more easily than for the Falun Gong who are dispersed throughout the country.

    Governments and international bodies must do their duty not only in regard to the possible charge of Genocide but also in regard to Crimes against Humanity, which the Tribunal does not allow to be any less heinous. Assuming they do not do their duty, the usually powerless citizen is, in the internet age, more powerful than s/he may recognise. Criminality of this order may allow individuals from around the world to act jointly in pressurising governments so that those governments and other international bodies are unable not to act.

    https://chinatribunal.com/wp-content...a-Tribunal.pdf
    If we look at the international legal definition of genocide as an attempt to significantly reduce or stop the possibility of procreation of a particular population, then it does meet that criteria. This is a concerted effort to control and to reduce the population of racial and religious minority in significant numbers.

    https://www.pri.org/stories/2020-07-...teria-genocide
    According to Article 2 of the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/genocide
    Communist China is a living example of what happens when America accepts defeat.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; July 21, 2020 at 01:37 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  11. #31

    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Short of a global conflict, China will not face a down fall but a transformation. It has a rising middle class and the real change will likely come from within. We will likely see a divided China in the next 50 years or so with various new states coming into existence just like how it happened with Soviet Russia. Uyghuristan will likely be a resulting state of that.
    The Armenian Issue

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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Um just to make it clear. I´m not saying it will break down tomorrow. Probaby not in next decade or two. But current China course will push things more and more into extremes and question is where all this preasure will resurface down the road...either China feels structuraly weak or they try to prevent any possible weak spot..

    Just look on development in the latest 20 years. And make simple projection where it will probably lead once Xijiping is president for life..

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Short of a global conflict, China will not face a down fall but a transformation. It has a rising middle class and the real change will likely come from within. We will likely see a divided China in the next 50 years or so with various new states coming into existence just like how it happened with Soviet Russia. Uyghuristan will likely be a resulting state of that.
    This is probably what China is trying to prevent. Making all population into one mass, removing any difference anything from religion,geographic difference,individualism...
    Last edited by Daruwind; July 21, 2020 at 11:42 AM.
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    I was preparing an addendum to my OP but see alot of the relevant points have already been made. I would just like to add that the transfer of the US industrial base to China starting in the mid 90s is really the root problem for the Western world. IN order to address alot of the injustices and help contain the spread of Chinese communism we need to move our factories and business interests out of China. Of course, everyone is there for the pennies on the dollar labor (read slave labor), so this really needs to be done via sanctions on the western industries that are doing business there.

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  14. #34
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Short of a global conflict, China will not face a down fall but a transformation. It has a rising middle class and the real change will likely come from within. We will likely see a divided China in the next 50 years or so with various new states coming into existence just like how it happened with Soviet Russia. Uyghuristan will likely be a resulting state of that.
    Frankly I don't see this happening, though I wish that it would. The soviet Union broke down along ethnic lines, part of it into states that had been independent prior to the formation of the Soviet Union and the conquests that followed, but that's not the case for China. The overwhelming majority of China belong to the same ethnic group (Han), and even areas that formerly were minority dominated, such as Uyghurstan, Inner Mongolia or Tibet are becoming increasingly dominated by the Han (last census found Uyghurstan to have 45.8% Uyghurs and 40.5% Han). Add to that the fact that, other than Tibet, all that is today China had been a part of China for centuries now, including Uyghurstan (which, although de-facto independent during ww2, was ruled by the Han Chinese Sheng Shicai), I don't see a breakup as a particularly realistic scenario, especially if China continues to pursue policies of ethnic cleansing in these regions.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    An interesting article on the BBC talks about the recent history of violence and the construction of the penal system. Interestingly, there is significant evidence that many DO NOT return, so I suppose there are a few cremation units in there somewhere.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources...a_hidden_camps

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  16. #36
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    ...
    Communist China is a living example of what happens when America accepts defeat.
    So is Canada. Is North Korea an example of what happens when the US accepts victory?

    The US serves the interests of the US. Its not a global policeman, although that has been a convenient excuse for some actions to open markets for its businesses. The US government would be stupid to do otherwise.
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  17. #37

    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    So is Canada. Is North Korea an example of what happens when the US accepts victory?

    The US serves the interests of the US. Its not a global policeman, although that has been a convenient excuse for some actions to open markets for its businesses. The US government would be stupid to do otherwise.
    I imagine you intend to convey nuance as opposed to the usual whataboutsm, but the result is fairly generic. The fact Korea is divided at all is because America failed. “US interests” can mean anything someone wants them to mean, including not rebelling against the Crown in the first place, not fighting to free the slaves and restore the Union, or staying out of WW2, or....

    Anyway, supposing America decides to not be the world policeman and leaves East Asia to fend for themselves, it might not mean totalitarian hegemony in Washington is sure to follow. In Korea? In Australia? Call that whichever interests you like.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; July 22, 2020 at 06:54 AM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    I imagine you intend to convey nuance as opposed to the usual whataboutsm, but the result is fairly generic.
    Not "generic" again, is it now used as a negative rather than a purely descriptive term? I intend to convey the sense that your statement seems overly general and is easily demonstrated as false. What defeat? The Korean War is not over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    The fact Korea is divided at all is because America failed.
    I though the Dear Leader met the Other Dear Leader and fixed all that?

    Objectively the continuing Korean war (we are enjoying an extended armistice at this point) has been a massive win for the US. It placed a friendly Christian in charge of a portion of a former Japanese colony, with a forward position protecting Japan and overlooking the Yellow Sea and incidentally has delayed Chinese reunification by many decades so far. It has placed the US at odds with China which benefits Russia but pragmatic diplomacy (above all by Nixon) has kept the pin in this diplomatic grenade so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    “US interests” can mean anything someone wants them to mean, including not rebelling against the Crown in the first place, not fighting to free the slaves and restore the Union, or staying out of WW2, or....
    Money for US elites is what I mean. The US was founded by rich men looking for tax breaks and has remained their property. Its a marvellously open society in that outsiders are allowed to join the rich club, and while there has been racism and genocide its not as bad as most places. Its by no means perfect but despite the "Freedom & Democracy" propaganda its a pragmatic mixed system that is very robust and incidentally delivers less dead babaies than most sytems so it has my support. Its not "right" because "God" or some perfect ideology. It works because people work hard at it and a lot of people are allowed to work at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Anyway, supposing America decides to not be the world policeman and leaves East Asia to fend for themselves, it might not mean totalitarian hegemony in Washington is sure to follow. In Korea? In Australia? Call that whichever interests you like.
    The US has decided not to be the World Policeman and that's sensible: policemen serve rulers and the US is not a servant.

    US diplomatic influence=/= instant democracy. The US supports infamous tyrants and theocratic terrorists as well as democratic societies, and also opposes democratic societies as well as infamous tyrants and theocratic terrorists.

    Woodrow Wilson did try to position the US as a World Policeman (something the Tsar had aimed for in the mid 19th century) and it was naive and untenable and Congress shut him down.

    In one way its a shame because it might (small chance) have actually ended up the better pragmatic play but the US would have had to eat a lot of, lets say humble pie, and foot even more bills than they now do.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  19. #39

    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops
    Its not "right" because "God" or some perfect ideology. It works because people work hard at it and a lot of people are allowed to work at it.
    This is a false dichotomy and I’m not sure anyone would tell you the US is perfect. There’s reasons alot of people worked hard at and are still working hard at it for 250 years, and like I told you before, it doesn’t really matter whether or not you think they’re silly, naive or deluded, or their reasons are otherwise a “mishmash of terms.” I’m glad you have the foresight to favor the status quo over an expansionist totalitarian regime with dreams of world domination on your doorstep, and at a minimum, that’s my point. To defeat this evil, it’s going to take alot of people all over the world pulling together. The cruise control, default option is defeat. After all, for the sea of people crushed beneath CCP jackboots in Hong Kong, used as forced labor in gulags, harvested for parts, maimed, executed, or democided by the millions as fodder in a CCP central planning scheme, MacArthur didn’t return this time. Their war is already lost.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    MacArthur is overblown and he couldn't stop in his own time. He definitely couldn't now.

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