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Thread: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

  1. #41
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar I am your sovereign now
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    I think this particular issue, there is a lot of room to find commonality no matter where we sit on the political spectrum.

    Extreme government is problematic, whether it is influenced by Marx or Moeller van den Bruck. In some respects. Government that has at it's base an extreme rejection of either individual or collective best interests is always going to end up doing harm.

    In this case, we can't really blame Marx. What the Chinese government is doing is a nationalist bastardisation that is very much edging towards a racist and totalitarian capitalism designed to keep a small elite in power rather than seeking to achieve a global communist fantasy land. I'm fairly certain Marx would reject it outright. Having traditional "communist" governmental institutions counts for nothing when they're utilised to do non-communist things.

    Either way - and for clarity of conversation, this is the most important part of my post - I don't think we need to view this through a left/right paradigm at all.

    This is just an expression of absolute power through enforced absolute collective compliance or else. The Uighurs are experiencing the or else part. This is a leadership cadre in Beijing saying: "Your ethnic group expresses difference. Difference is dangerous, so that means your ethnic group is dangerous. Therefore we will either change you into an acceptable ethnicity, or end you". I think in this situation we can put aside Godwin's law. Because comparisons with the holocaust are apt. There may not be gas chambers, but I'm pretty sure forced sterilisation is just a friendlier, slower way of achieving the same ends. The persons making the decisions here don't care for communism, capitalism, whateverism. Those are just means to an end to be used to maintain power.

    As I seem to be saying in a lot of threads lately, this is just a bunch of !@$& alphas waving their genitalia about. It's like we're goats butting heads.
    By far the best post in this thread, since the reality here is more nuanced and multifaceted here than just "communism bad" or "communism not guilty". Even the word "communism" in a present-day Chinese context is a pretty loaded term considering the market reforms of Deng Xiaoping and the reopening of China to the global economy. They certainly have a one-party state that is at least "communist" on paper but not really in practice for enormous sectors of their economy that function more like capitalism on steroids and without meaningful regulation while existing alongside tightly state-controlled industries. The ideological contradictions inherent in this mixed economic model doesn't seem to bother Beijing, either, certainly not the billionaires like Jack Ma, the Jeff Bezos of China.

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    Those that view China in a bad light, really need to understand that in a world built around the mega money of global capitalism, the interests of the Chinese Communist regime and large Western companies, have become quite blurred and in many cases symbiotic.


    It would be a tall order to convince me that senior executives in these companies were completely unaware what was going on. Given what went on in WW2 using slave labour, you would think the likes of Volkswagen would know better. Seems to me there are a lot of "Johny Come Lately" voices speeking about an issue which has been going on for some time and which was widely known about.
    Another great post and a reminder that US multinational companies continued doing business with the Nazis even during the outbreak of WWII and the bombing of Britain. Never underestimate the power of greed, especially now that so many of these companies rely on China for so many things. There are too many variables at play for them to just sever themselves from China at a moment's notice, but gradually moving the manufacturing base back to US soil would be a good start. The problem is that the US federal government has to create a monetary incentive for that, if not a strict regulatory regime for it that benefits US companies and encourages them to hire American workers and build plants and factories over here, not over there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    3: A widespread populist movement boycotting Chinese-made goods. I see this as the only realistic option.
    It's the most realistic and yet not realistic enough considering my point above. Boycotting goods "Made in China" means you would have to boycott the multinational corporations that produce said goods in China, not just purely Chinese domestic companies. China is the factory of the world, so to speak, so even this approach would have to be conducted with the same kind of caution that you would use walking through a minefield. It is depressing, because there are so few options for really convincing China to stop this kind of ethnic cleaning of Uyghurs or other ethnic groups considered to be separatist ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Communist China is a living example of what happens when America accepts defeat.
    LOL. "Communist" China. Where have you been in the past four decades, my friend? The Cold War is over, the Soviet Union has collapsed, nobody cares about Mao's Little Red Book (not even the Chinese), China has literal corporate billionaires, doesn't care about spreading communism to the Third World anymore, and truly communist nations like Cuba can be counted on one hand. You sound hysterical, like someone who's just seen a ghost, and that's what communism basically is in the 21st century, a relic of the previous century. The reason why we have so much trouble exacting punitive measures against China right now is because they have become so embedded into the global capitalist system and our multinational corporations have collectively decided it is cheaper to stage their manufacturing base in China rather than somewhere else, because that's the country where one out of every five people on the planet happen to live.

    It's the same reason why we in the West have such a hard time even supporting the protesters in Hong Kong, because our business interests with China even in the age of COVID-19 which originated there are so strong that people are afraid to even criticize China online. That's certainly the case for celebrities like basketball players who have to worry about ruffling Chinese sensibilities and topics considered sensitive to the Chinese, such as the protests in Hong Kong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    It isn't delusional. History shows this has happened before regardless of the government's ideology. This isn't as simple as an evil communist government doing bad things.


    Yet as i showed the oppression of the Uhygurs began long ago. Its about control more than simple ideology. Case in point being the Hui Muslims of China who aren't oppressed like the Uhygurs. They're Muslims too but China doesn't really bother them because unlike the Uhygurs they're not separatists. So explain. If its simply a Communist regime erasing religious and national identities (as you described their ideology to inevitably ends up at) then why aren't they doing the same to the Hui?


    No they did it for the very same reason the Qing did. To quash separatists and have absolute control of a region which has historically been problems for Chinese governments and dynasties to control in the first place. The difference is the methods they are using now. And the fact the current Chinese government seems to be more successful than previous government's before it in doing so.


    Godwin's law won't save you. Arguing this oppression is a result of the communism is just ignorance and you blatantly ignoring the history of the Uyghurs and their history in China. I'll ask the same question POVG did.

    Would the fate of the Uyghurs be different if it wasn't a communist government ruling over them?
    Great post and good point about the Hui Muslims, who are most certainly not treated the same way as the Uyghurs due to their greater assimilation into Chinese culture and generally more accepting attitude of one-party rule. If the government of the PRC parroted some other authoritarian ideology than that of communism, then yes the Uyghurs would most likely still be oppressed in a similar fashion. To be honest this oppression of the Uyghurs already does have elements of ethnic Han Chinese nationalism, their communist one-party rule aside. If China had a standard liberal democracy or even something as socialist or left-wing as the Nordic model, it would probably be less oppressive but still would try to crush separatist sentiments among the Uyghurs. It just wouldn't be as extreme as the Qing dynasty when they literally exterminated the Mongolic Dzungar people of Xinjiang in the genocide of 1755-1758.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Agreed. Uygurs never really assimilated into Chinese culture and you can see this from the Qing years to after the Xinhai Revolution with Chiang Kai-Shek's government. Always some kind of persecution or uprisings going on. At the end of the day the Uyghurs want their own state and any Chinese government communist or not wouldn't accept that.

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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix
    *It’s not real communism
    It never is. Anyway, the semantics about labeling when it comes to, you know, the Chinese Communist Party, aren’t material to the point. Of course there is ideological inconsistency within the system; that was the whole idea behind Deng Xiaoping’s economic reforms, and the idea that economic liberalization would translate to political down the line. Again, it hasn’t, and that’s the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xi Jinping
    From beginning to end our Party has always adhered to the lofty ideals of communism. Party members, especially leading cadres, should be firm believers and faithful practitioners of the lofty ideal of communism and the common ideals of socialism with Chinese characteristics. Faith in Marxism, a socialist and communist conviction, is the political soul of the Communist Party member. They are the spiritual pillar that give him the strength to undergo any test. The Party Constitution clearly stipulates that the Party’s highest ideal and ultimate goal is to achieve communism. At the same time, the Party Constitution also clearly stipulates that the high ideal of communism can only be realized by a highly developed socialist society.[xvi] To pause for a moment or two and then suddenly enter communism—that isn’t realistic.

    Comrade Deng Xiaoping said that the consolidation and development of the socialist system will require its own long period of history. He said it will require the tireless struggle of generations, up to ten generations, or perhaps even tens of generations of communists. Tens of generations—that is a long time! From the time of Confucius to the present day we have not seen more than seventy generations. Looking at the problem in this way is a real demonstration of the soberness of the Communist Party of China.

    We must recognize that our labors today and the unceasing work of so many generations in the future are paired together, all moving towards the ultimate goal of achieving communism. If we throw away our Communist Party’s lofty ideals, we will lose our direction and become coldly utilitarian. At the same time, we must recognize that the realization of communism is a very long historical process. We must ground ourselves in the struggles of the present moment and keep our work down to earth.

    https://palladiummag.com/2019/05/31/...ding-ideology/
    Xi’s centralization of power, however, has been more an accelerant than the main driver of China’s more assertive influence efforts. It is, rather, the Party’s obsession with preserving its rule—a theme which both predated and facilitated Xi’s elevation to power in 2012—that more fundamentally drives China’s growing influence in developing countries. Mounting threats to CCP control have occupied Chinese leaders since early this century as they have come to terms with the unraveling of the core factors that characterized China’s reform era—relative political stability, ideological openness, and rapid economic growth. As Carl Minzner puts it, the leadership is consumed by the need to strengthen “the levees they rely on to keep the waters of a turbulent society in check.”

    Lastly, the CCP shapes information in developing countries as part of an effort to legitimize the Party and China’s authoritarian system on the global stage. China’s promised rise and rejuvenation as a great power, a key pillar of the Party’s legitimacy, requires expanding its normative power abroad. Chinese leaders recognize that to achieve legitimacy as a responsible great power without democratizing—a prospect not welcomed by the developed West—they must first popularize China’s model in the developing world.18 These efforts also support China’s economic goals. Gaining widespread support for its model has become more important as China depends more on a favorable climate for Chinese investments. The CCP conducts large-scale trainings of foreign officials about its development methods and provides increasingly sophisticated technology to authoritarian governments.19 China frequently reprints in domestic official media the “positive China stories” told in foreign media, using reflections of China’s rejuvenation and responsible global role to stoke patriotic sentiment to CCP benefit.20

    The CCP’s approach to influence in the developing world is driven by deep-seated and intensifying concern about regime survival. From the outset of Xi’s tenure, he declared an intent to forcefully restore Party control, prevent a Soviet-style collapse, and prepare for the next phase of “reform and opening up” and China’s rise to great power status. These enduring imperatives will ensure an aggressive Chinese approach to securing leverage over developing countries even after Xi has stepped down. To prevent the resulting spread of authoritarianism and defend its interests, the United States will need to recommit to the hard work of defending democracy around the world.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/p...eloping-world/

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Lack of a real rebuttal speaks volumes. But hey tell us more about the Communist bogeyman.

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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Lack of a real rebuttal speaks volumes. But hey tell us more about the Communist bogeyman.
    Your objectively false assertion speaks volumes. But hey, haven’t you forgotten to mention something?

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Your objectively false assertion speaks volumes. But hey, haven’t you forgotten to mention something?
    Talk about catch phrases. I did forget to mention something. You didn't answer my post about MacArthur last page. Second time i've seen you mention him before in a discussion about communism. Real curious to see your reply.

    EDIT: Btw that post wasn't a reply to yours. I actually directed it at Cope's post but it looks like its since been deleted.
    Last edited by Vanoi; July 23, 2020 at 01:52 PM.

  7. #47
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar I am your sovereign now
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    It never is.
    I never said that. China was clearly fully communist under Mao Zedong. Nobody is disputing that or the fact that the Soviet Union existed, or that Cuba is still communist, or that the North Koreans have their weird blend of communism and Juche ideology. None of that is particularly relevant to how the Chinese operate *right now* and for the past several decades. Again, communist on paper as a form of lip service and in regards to selective amounts of industries directly controlled by the government, but in practical reality they are an authoritarian one-party state with a mixed system that clearly includes capitalism and the private ownership of property. An enormous part of their economy is composed of private businesses and multinational corporations imitative of Western models, in some cases headed by Chinese billionaires like Ma Huateng, Hui Ka Yan, and Jack Ma.

    Anyway, the semantics about labeling when it comes to, you know, the Chinese Communist Party, aren’t material to the point. Of course there is ideological inconsistency within the system; that was the whole idea behind Deng Xiaoping’s economic reforms, and the idea that economic liberalization would translate to political down the line. Again, it hasn’t, and that’s the point.
    Yes, unfortunately it hasn't translated into political liberalization and China remains as despotic as ever, or perhaps even more so given the social credit system and exponential growth of the surveillance state thanks to new technologies.

    This isn't exactly the same China that fought us in North Korea during the Korean War to defend communist satellite states. One could argue they would have tried to help prop up a friendly regime in North Korea regardless of shared ideology, due to their concern for maintaining buffer states and their historical relationship with Korea as a patron/overlord to its client/vassal. However, while China does invest in the Third World with its Silk Road initiative in Central Asia and building up infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa, they do these things for the extraction of resources rather than a genuine attempt to spread Maoism or any other kind of communist ideology. They don't really care to export such ideas anymore since they don't even really take it seriously following the disaster of the Cultural Revolution. Your quote of Xi Jinping is really only demonstrative of how party apparatchiks speak to one another, which is miles apart from the ideology and mixed economic model they presently implement.

    As for how all of this relates to the Uyghurs, the Uyghurs basically want their own nation since they are staunchly Sunni Muslim and also have pride in their ethnic background while not wanting to be ruled by the Han Chinese or influenced by their predominant culture, something the secular Chinese authorities cannot abide. Unfortunately for the Uyghurs this means terrifying levels of oppression that we saw in communist Soviet-style gulags, hopefully not yet Nazi German style concentration camps or Imperial Japanese internment camps. Forced labor and sterilization are already horrific enough. The problem is that our multinational corporations don't seem terribly interested in twisting China's arm to stop any of this because there's no economic motivation for them to do so, not until we start twisting their arms in turn to pull their factories out of China and boycott Chinese goods. That's virtually the only tools we have in our toolkit to stop this short of sanctions or warfare, both of which are unfeasible for obvious reasons.

    It would take something like an invasion of Taiwan for the West to actually intervene militarily against China.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma Victrix
    I never said that. China was clearly fully communist under Mao Zedong. Nobody is disputing that or the fact that the Soviet Union existed, or that Cuba is still communist, or that the North Koreans have their weird blend of communism and Juche ideology. None of that is particularly relevant to how the Chinese operate *right now* and for the past several decades. Again, communist on paper as a form of lip service and in regards to selective amounts of industries directly controlled by the government, but in practical reality they are an authoritarian one-party state with a mixed system that clearly includes capitalism and the private ownership of property. An enormous part of their economy is composed of private businesses and multinational corporations imitative of Western models, in some cases headed by Chinese billionaires like Ma Huateng, Hui Ka Yan, and Jack Ma.
    If you never said this:
    LOL. "Communist" China. Where have you been in the past four decades, my friend? The Cold War is over, the Soviet Union has collapsed, nobody cares about Mao's Little Red Book (not even the Chinese), China has literal corporate billionaires, doesn't care about spreading communism to the Third World anymore, and truly communist nations like Cuba can be counted on one hand. You sound hysterical, like someone who's just seen a ghost, and that's what communism basically is in the 21st century, a relic of the previous century.
    I guess we can disregard it.
    This isn't exactly the same China that fought us in North Korea during the Korean War to defend communist satellite states. One could argue they would have tried to help prop up a friendly regime in North Korea regardless of shared ideology, due to their concern for maintaining buffer states and their historical relationship with Korea as a patron/overlord to its client/vassal. However, while China does invest in the Third World with its Silk Road initiative in Central Asia and building up infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa, they do these things for the extraction of resources rather than a genuine attempt to spread Maoism or any other kind of communist ideology. They don't really care to export such ideas anymore since they don't even really take it seriously following the disaster of the Cultural Revolution. Your quote of Xi Jinping is really only demonstrative of how party apparatchiks speak to one another, which is miles apart from the ideology and mixed economic model they presently implement.
    It doesn’t matter whether or not you believe the Chinese Communist Party is really communist or just faking it for the likes. Since you deny having denied it, I’m glad you acknowledge it and the evidence for how the spread of authoritarianism is integral to protecting the Party’s interests at home and abroad, including the elimination of political and ethnic enemies like the Uighurs.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    If you never said this:

    I guess we can disregard it.

    It doesn’t matter whether or not you believe the Chinese Communist Party is really communist or just faking it for the likes. Since you deny having denied it, I’m glad you acknowledge it and the evidence for how the spread of authoritarianism is integral to protecting the Party’s interests at home and abroad, including the elimination of political and ethnic enemies like the Uighurs.
    How do you manage to equate China under Mao with China of today? Roma_Victrix made it abundantly clear about which era of Chinese governance he was referring to. This is very poor debating.
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    How do you manage to equate China under Mao with China of today? Roma_Victrix made it abundantly clear about which era of Chinese governance he was referring to. This is very poor debating.
    How does your post manage to be so dishonest when everyone can read the thread?

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are blindfolded and led to boxcars in drone footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Control is also an aspect of authoritarianism in general. The point is the oppression of Uyghurs has to do with them being separatists and not China simply perpetuating the communist ideology.
    I think we understand each other in accepting that the situation is more complex. From the perspective of a libertarian even democratic socialist policies can sometimes seem authoritarian to me. On the extreme end communism generally has a strong authoritarian element, I think even many of those on the left can identify. However in saying that authoritarianism is a part of communism it would be wrong to say that it is exclusive to communism. Is that what you mean?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Indeed. This ethnocide is much more than the old fashioned, autocratic repression that the Uighurs suffered under previous regimes; it bears all the hallmarks of surgical ideological enforcement.

    From the Mail:

    Sad to read the report from the Mail you posted. I did not really give this topic too much thought but reading details about their treatment does spark a bit of anger.

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    Those that view China in a bad light, really need to understand that in a world built around the mega money of global capitalism, the interests of the Chinese Communist regime and large Western companies, have become quite blurred and in many cases symbiotic.

    It would be a tall order to convince me that senior executives in these companies were completely unaware what was going on. Given what went on in WW2 using slave labour, you would think the likes of Volkswagen would know better. Seems to me there are a lot of "Johny Come Lately" voices speeking about an issue which has been going on for some time and which was widely known about.
    Working in the car industry I worry myself about this and I think blurred is a good word to describe identifying the complex nature of where the problem comes from.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    I think this particular issue, there is a lot of room to find commonality no matter where we sit on the political spectrum.

    Extreme government is problematic, whether it is influenced by Marx or Moeller van den Bruck. In some respects. Government that has at it's base an extreme rejection of either individual or collective best interests is always going to end up doing harm.

    In this case, we can't really blame Marx. What the Chinese government is doing is a nationalist bastardisation that is very much edging towards a racist and totalitarian capitalism designed to keep a small elite in power rather than seeking to achieve a global communist fantasy land. I'm fairly certain Marx would reject it outright. Having traditional "communist" governmental institutions counts for nothing when they're utilised to do non-communist things.

    Either way - and for clarity of conversation, this is the most important part of my post - I don't think we need to view this through a left/right paradigm at all.

    This is just an expression of absolute power through enforced absolute collective compliance or else. The Uighurs are experiencing the or else part. This is a leadership cadre in Beijing saying: "Your ethnic group expresses difference. Difference is dangerous, so that means your ethnic group is dangerous. Therefore we will either change you into an acceptable ethnicity, or end you". I think in this situation we can put aside Godwin's law. Because comparisons with the holocaust are apt. There may not be gas chambers, but I'm pretty sure forced sterilisation is just a friendlier, slower way of achieving the same ends. The persons making the decisions here don't care for communism, capitalism, whateverism. Those are just means to an end to be used to maintain power.

    As I seem to be saying in a lot of threads lately, this is just a bunch of !@$& alphas waving their genitalia about. It's like we're goats butting heads.
    I very much agree with your point about partisan issues. I don't think any of us here from either side of the political spectrum disagree that what is happening is horrible and that any extreme government is bad.

    To give my insight on your point about communism: Marx is at the source of the theory behind communism. As with any political system (and with other sciences as well) theory rarely translates 100% to practice. I would argue the theoretical society pictured by Marx is not possible and any communist system would in practice be a bastardization of that, as history has shown. This would be true the other side as well. As a libertarian I look more fondly on the teachings of Mises though I know his captialist theories are equally theoretical and in practice a degree of regulation is necessary. Where there is disagreement is, how much

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    In addition to forced labor, it appears that China is actively harvesting organs from the repressed populations, including the Uighurs.

    Not sure what we are leading to as a world when activists cry for "social justice" yet wear sports logos created by slave labor and harvested organs in China.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKCN1TI236



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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    There is being silent on millions suffering than there is Trump:

    Trump told China's president that building concentration camps for millions of Uighur Muslims was 'exactly the right thing to do,' former adviser says
    President Donald Trump expressed approval of a concentration camp for Uighur Muslims in China during a private meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping, according to former national security adviser John Bolton's upcoming memoir, "The Room Where It Happened."
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    This article from the BBC has details from a video transmitted by an inmate within the prison system for Uighurs.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53650246

    This is a first hand account of the brutal treatment these people are being exposed to.



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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I hold a very low opinion of Bolton and I'm not sure his recollection of events could be relied upon. It does reflect poorly on Trump that he selected such a person for his administration though.
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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    What is even more surprising is the support given by the Palestinians for China and its policies ... described as their "supporting pillar".

    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/201..._138419182.htm



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    Default Re: Uighurs in China are Blindfolded and Led to Boxcars in Drone Footage.

    erm.. the truth is, muslim countries/peoples dont particularly care about each other and it is more beneficial for them to be friends with China than to anger China over the fate of some fellow muslim Uighurs.

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