Venezuela delays dictatorship...til next week

[danzig]

For some reason a thread opened up a few days ago about this disappeared, basically the Venezuelan National Assembly aka the Chavez drones set to give him the power to rule by decree for 18 months. Now its been delayed atleast temporarily maybe because they underestimated the possible backlash such a move would create though they still seem set on doing it. If they do give him the powers it is imo safe to say a dictatorship has taken over in the country as its obviously a step required before he can go about his plans to seize more assets (such as telephone, electricity and clamping down on the media even more) for the state.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...d/4493502.html

[Sétanta]

He is as good as a dictator already.

[danzig]

He is as good as a dictator already.

I know and I think most rational people realize that as well but there are fans of Chavez on TWC who seem to support him regardless and they have been a bit quiet on this

[Erich von Manstein]

He is as good as a dictator already.

Indeed. I'm convinced that the only reason the people have yet to turn on him is because he's playing on the large amounts of anti-US sentiment in the world.

[RusskiSoldat]

The power of rule by fiat being temporarily granted by the senate is nothing new and has been used in such brutal dictatorships as 30s France.

[Bwaho]

I'm convinced that the only reason the people have yet to turn on him is because he's playing on the large amounts of anti-US sentiment in the world.

and his oil subsidies... gotta be nice for the average venezuelan with such cheap gas.

[RZZZA]

whats the big deal? This is one dictatorship the U.S. cant be blamed for propping up. Let them install a dictator if they want one, as long as the U.S. stays out of it...dont see why we should care so much.

[danzig]

whats the big deal? This is one dictatorship the U.S. cant be blamed for propping up. Let them install a dictator if they want one, as long as the U.S. stays out of it...dont see why we should care so much.

Because too many people sing his praise based more on his anti American rhetoric then on the man and his leadership itself...you have him being cheered at the UN for his speech when really he is no better.

[RZZZA]

Because too many people sing his praise based more on his anti American rhetoric then on the man and his leadership itself...you have him being cheered at the UN for his speech when really he is no better.

So we should go to war over petty %$$& like THAT? Ignore him, let him do whatever he wants to get to power. Its of no concern to us.


edit: how pathetic has America become where venezuala is now intimidating us?

[bigfootedfred]

For some reason a thread opened up a few days ago about this disappeared,

It didn't disappear...
you just couldn't see it because it was one of my threads.

Anyway. You should be able to see it again now.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=79420

i agree with some of Chavez's policy's and stands on issues.
But the problem, would be the 'rule by decree'.
Complete and un-hindered authority to re-write law as he see's fit...
Well he pretty much had that anyway, as the opposition party's there have boycotted the legislative branch for years.
So why, if you have a rubber stamp on every proposal,
assuming the proposal is not something no one in the legislative branch would vote yes on..
would you want complete authority to re-write law and the national constitution.

Sweeping changes. why could these 'sweeping changes' not have been passed in the normal manner,
why does it require such overall complete power to Chavez, No oversight, no inquiry.
Chavez is getting Rule by decree. If you dont understand the implications of that. Please look it up.

[Erik]

Didn't Blair try something similar in Great Britain not so long ago?

I think some people here called it the "abolishment of parliament act" but the official name was different of course.
How did that end?

Anyways, if Venezuelans want a dictatorship that's their choice.
I'll just sit back here and see how long it will take them before they change their minds.

[Lavastein]

can we go to war against venezuela now? or assassinate him?

[Last Roman]

Anyways, if Venezuelans want a dictatorship that's their choice.
I'll just sit back here and see how long it will take them before they change their minds.

Indeed

Of course, once they realize what's going on, it won't be pretty.

[bigfootedfred]

Didn't Blair try something similar in Great Britain not so long ago?

I think some people here called it the "abolishment of parliament act" but the official name was different of course.

Ah yes. The "Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill".
Basically it would give ministers power to change law without going through parliament, and pretty dam fast too.
Well, as the details spread, people wrote to their mp's. Campaigns got started against it, and after it went through committee it was clear it had absolutely no chance of passing thanks to the large group of politicians informed of it, and registering their names on the campaign to stop it's website, that it crawled back to whatever dark little dank hole it crawled out of. with the promise to 're-write it to avoid any further issues' ..we haven't seen it since.

[Bwaho]

So we should go to war over petty %$$& like THAT?

did he say that? it's amazing how poor the reading skills on this forum are.

[RZZZA]

did he say that? it's amazing how poor the reading skills on this forum are.

Yes, yours need some work as well, because if you would oay attention, lots of people are calling for war/assasination/conflict against Chavez...in this thread. Look harder.

[Bwaho]

Yes, yours need some work as well

do point out where I misread something

because if you would oay attention, lots of people are calling for war/assasination/conflict against Chavez...in this thread. Look harder.

key words are "lots of people", but you quoted danzig and answered him in a way that made it look as if he had proposed military action against Chavez.

[Shigawire]

It appears there are some supporters of the Monroe Doctrine here. Which was a declaration of Hegemony over the Americas (and beyond). Ever since WW2, many 3rd world countries had been attacked covertly or overtly by the US, and the excuse was always that they were communists - regardless if there was a connection or not. Most of the cases, the country was simply getting too ambitiously independent for the US and IMF, and had nothing to do with the Soviet or communism. There is an interesting dichotomy here in how the word "communism" was used by both sides. The Soviet Union used the word "communism" to make its own government look good. The US used the word "communism" with horrible countries to make the word have a bad meaning.

I do believe the top brass knew they were fighting to maintain a hegemony, but I'm sure some of the low-level operatives believed they were fighting communism. I have, among my vast library on covert actions, Kermit Roosevelt's autobiography of his implementation of Operation Ajax in 1953 (overthrow of Democratically elected government of Iran).

The AIOC (Anglo-Iranian-Oil-Company, later called "British Petroleum"), was thrown out by Mossadegh due to nationalization of the Oil Fields (the right of any sovereign nation). Mohammed Mossadegh thought that nationalization was the only way to prevent British exploitation of Iran's oil wealth. The AIOC took its case against the nationalization to the International Court of Justice at The Hague, but lost the case. International Law was on Mossadegh's side. Kermit writes that his organization (CIA) recieved a plan from AIOC to overthrow Iran's government, Kermit had been given the assent by Eienhower to carry out the plan.

The CIA considered the plan drafted by AIOC (BP) sufficient enough and simply adopted it themselves and renamed it "TP-AJAX." Kermit and his CIA spooks actually carried out terrorist attacks in Iran to blame it on, and demonize, Mossadegh. They blew up mosques, they blew up school-buses, spread manufactured posters stating "Up with Mossadegh, Up with Communism, Down with Allah!" Kermit states early in the book that he himself was convinced that he was fighting communism, yet in his operation his people had to manufacture posters of Mossadegh saying "up with communism," since obviously Mossadegh himself had never stated anything of the sort. In fact, as modern historians have shown (often to deaf ears), Iran was not communist, and had in fact driven communist forces out of the north in his country. He didn't want the country to be subservient any external domination, be it US or Soviet. And even if Iran's government was communist, that is still no excuse for committing war crimes - that is if one cares about International Law at all.

Also consider the long-term effects this childish and shortsighted operation had. The US reinstalled the Shah, this time with a vengeance, with all the bells and whistles appropriate for a US-friendly fascist puppet dictator. Restricted freedom of expression, great freedom to US corporations, and a Gestapo to boot (the SAVAK). 26 long years of sheer terror later... the people were fed up and started a popular revolution. Unfortunately this revolution was based on a religious platform, and a Theocracy would take over after the coup. It can easily be inferred that, by virtue of causality, had not Coup #1 occured, Coup #2 would never have happened either, and Iran would not be a Theocracy today. Because Coup #2 was a direct consequence of the conditions created by Coup #1.

The same mutated "Monroe Doctrine" was applied on Nicaragua, which wasn't a communist country either. Interestingly, the message Reagan gave on television was that Nicaragua was an imminent threat to the United States - which is hilarious until you realize the seriousness of the situation. Pay notice that this is the identical rhetoric used when invading Iraq. And so, the United States started international terrorism in Nicaragua, with Honduras as a base of operations (John Negroponte as the "ambassador"), reaching El Salvador also. Economy was shattered in Nicaragua after this, and had as many people died in the US, there would have been 2 million deaths, to give you a comparative picture. That's more than was lost in the Civil War.

It ought to be mentioned that Venezuela has been declared by OPEC to have the world's largest untapped reserves of oil, next to Saudi Arabia. This is why the country receives much attention, and Chavez - an excellent demagogue - is tapping into this by waving a red flag in front of a raving mad bull. This is also most likely why there was a US-sponsored coup attempt in 2003, which failed, but killed 154 people.

There is unfortunately a lot of Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson propaganda about the situation, the mass media is failing us as usual.

[RZZZA]

But not all of us are blind to the suffering of our brothers in central and south america, perhaps theyd stop flocking into the U.S. if the U.S. didnt cause inflation and political instability in their countries in the first place. So instead of helping iraq, im for helping central and south america. Although I know helping people is a cause for philanthropists and humanitarian groups, not government. ;(

[Kretchfoop]

This whole Venezuelan-US "rivalry" is such nonsense. Chavez is a populist pseudo-dictator who relies heavily on completely overblown anti-US rhetoric and oil money. As long as they keep selling us oil then no one really truly cares what he does. And they will keep selling it. China and the EU can't just make up for the loss of the US market overnight. Without all those oil dollars to throw at the people he will start taking some heat. Bush and company can talk back and threaten him all they want to get support from the ignorant people who like that sort of international trash talking nonsense. Any sort of real confrontation is totally out of the question for both sides.