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Thread: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

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    Flinn's Avatar Darth Yodarsconi
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    Default [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    Curia Service Award
    Awarded for serving the Curia with distinction for a period exceeding six months, as voted upon by the Curia.



    Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    • Temp Censor (May 2018) - Total 1 month service
    • Curators Assistant (July 2018 - September 2018) - Total 3 months service
    • Praefect (March 2019 - June 2019) - Total 3 months service
    • Primus Praefect - (June 2019 - June 2020) - Full 12 month term


    For once, I won't be as verbose as I usually am.. serving in the Curia is for the most a thankless job, but this just makes it even more worthy of a official recognition. Van Zandt has served for over a year and a half in the "new Curia" with honor and dedication, and in my opinion he already deserves a Curial award because of this. However, in case you are not convinced yet, back at the time of the "very first Curia" he was already involved in it.

    service in the "old Curia"
    In October of 2006 I became a member of the Council of Peace, and also the Council of War. I believe that I am the only standing member to have been a member of both Councils. Both were elected positions.

    I brief summary of the members of the Councils during this time period can be found here.
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...mbership-lists -


    Council of Peace - The Second Council of Peace - (October 2006 - December 2006) - Total of two months service


    Quote Originally Posted by Obi Wan Asterix
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    There is much work to be done, and much of it depends on your intitatives. Once proposals have been formulated PM me with your ideas.


    Maron has been appointed temporarily as most of you have other responsabilities.


    To do:


    1. Establish a standard "thread of the week award" in this way we are trying to involve more modders in the common community.
    2. Think of ideas to restructure, expand or improve the CC.


    And yes there are expectations placed on the 5 of you....


    Asterix"

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    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...-the-Week-quot
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...h-quot-an-idea
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...ng-the-Council
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...ng-the-Capitol
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...x-Suffrage-Act


    Council of War - Consillium Bela - (October 2006 - December 2006) - Total of two months service


    Quote Originally Posted by Obi Wan Asterix
    "You have been appointed by the King-Emperor Basileus and his Strategii as the advisers to the community on all matters concerning the Total War section!


    Please proceed to the Questions and Suggestions forum where you will find the Consillium Bela awaiting your initiative and ideas!


    Congratulations


    Asterix"

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    Curia Committee for the Expansion of TWC - (May 2007 - June 2007) - Total 1 month service.


    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/foru...pansion-of-TWC


    Not Much to add, really; the service as Praefect and Primus Praefect is of the "behind the doors" kind, since it's related with moderation, but from my point of view, with the past and present service Van Zandt offerd in the Curia, he totally deserves the Curia Service Award.


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    Last edited by Flinn; July 13, 2020 at 05:49 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    Abstain.

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  3. #3
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    Support
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    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    • Temp Censor (May 2018) - Total 1 month service
    • Curators Assistant (July 2018 - September 2018) - Total 3 months service


    These were great periods for him. He was a solid CA and helped me out greatly. The VZ I met there was a great guy but the VZ we have now is not so in my opinion.
    His term as PP was abysmal and showed his true character which should, in my opinion not be rewarded with an award.

    I will oppose.

  5. #5
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    Quote Originally Posted by General Brewster View Post
    • Temp Censor (May 2018) - Total 1 month service
    • Curators Assistant (July 2018 - September 2018) - Total 3 months service


    These were great periods for him. He was a solid CA and helped me out greatly. The VZ I met there was a great guy but the VZ we have now is not so in my opinion.
    His term as PP was abysmal and showed his true character which should, in my opinion not be rewarded with an award.

    I will oppose.
    Is that all he did in the Curia?

    That barely count as 10% of what is expected from a citizen to accomplish in one of the Curial positions in the Curia. Opposed!
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  6. #6

    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    I'm also changing my vote to opposed.

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  7. #7
    Flinn's Avatar Darth Yodarsconi
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    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Is that all he did in the Curia?

    That barely count as 10% of what is expected from a citizen to accomplish in one of the Curial positions in the Curia. Opposed!
    not really, since he did a lot in the old Curia as well (see the OP, always check the OP eh ); I concur though that the attitude issues highlighted by GB are a serious concern, maybe he can expand on that? I always assumed that when one is not doing their job as a Curial officer there's the VonC, is this the case? More info will help people to decide, either way (I mean I personally believe that a long service is worth a recognition in any case, but maybe someone else doesn't ).

    every input is welcome, for the sake of a fair procedure
    Last edited by Flinn; July 14, 2020 at 06:15 AM.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    It's not really "long service" when it's one full term as Primus and then not even a full term served in any other office, is it? Surely everyone who serves a full term of office isn't eligible for this award, are they? Especially not a full term mired in the kinds of difficulties Brewster brought up and anyone with access to the Politia can see.

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  9. #9
    Flinn's Avatar Darth Yodarsconi
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    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    6 months it's the time limit for the Award, so if anyone has "served" for 18 months, it's a long service, isn't it?

    However, I'm sure that the point in discussion here is not how long he served, but the quality of this service, if this has to be discussed at all... honestly it seems to me that recently there have been cases of Awards that did not really took quality in consideration but lived on with rewarding the intention and everybody was good with that.

    Also, remember to put personal grudges aside if possible, and just objectively judge the service Van Zandt gave over the 2 periods (old and new Curia); I did have some harsh moments with him during his service in the Modding Staff and I'm not really feeling any friendship with him, still I think that everyone who's been serving for over 6 months in the Curia should get this award, hence this proposal; the only reason that could make me change my mind would be a very abysmal service (which has to be proven in any case) or one or more successful VonCs.
    Last edited by Flinn; July 14, 2020 at 08:38 AM.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    6 months it's the time limit for the Award,
    It's not "the time limit" it's the minimum requirement. Meeting the bare minimum requirements does not make you worthy of the reward, it means you meet the bare minimum requirements.

    He didn't even finish out a term in any office but this one, where he ignored the majority of his duties.

    still I think that everyone who's been serving for over 6 months in the Curia should get this award, hence this proposal
    Everyone who has served for 6 months has not "served with distinction". Giving this award to anyone who meets the barest minimum requirement reduces the value of the award to all others who have actually done something significant to warrant being rewarded.

    A term mired with drama and incompetence does not rise to the level of "serving with distinction".

    the only reason that could me make change my mind would be a very abysmal service (which has to be proven in any case)
    And evidence has been provided for it, as well as being at your fingertips (since you can access the Politia).

    or one or more successful VonCs.
    So to be clear, you're saying that the bar for this reward is

    1. Serving 6 months.

    2. Not being VONCed successfully more than once

    Wow. Talk about lowering the bar here. You're practically dredging the river for corpses at this point...

    If we're going to give the award to every single person who hasn't been thrown out of office then the award should be given out by default to every single Curial officer on their leaving office (provided their term was 6 months).

    edit:

    It also seems amusing to me that you would say these two things, one after the other

    honestly it seems to me that recently there have been cases of Awards that did not really took quality in consideration but lived on with rewarding the intention and everybody was good with that.
    Also, remember to put personal grudges aside if possible,
    I think perhaps you should remove the log from your own eye before judging the splinter in someone else's.
    Last edited by Akar; July 14, 2020 at 08:48 AM.

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  11. #11
    Flinn's Avatar Darth Yodarsconi
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    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    I didn't know we were talking about me here, no?

    However, you made your point clear, you and others have expressed the opposition to this award, if no one else will deem it right to support it, then it will fail none the less

    I'll keep the discussion about what I believe should be the merits behind this award in the Townhall, let's not spam this thread
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    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    As I said, his time as CA would've been enough for me to vote yes if it had the required time limit. The guy was a gem as my assistant in my final term. Just the attitude, disrespect for curial institutions and well. I'll leave it at that.

    There's this, which did fail the 66% margin but did have over 50% support..

  13. #13

    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    I've got to say I'm really not seeing it. The linked to posts from yesteryear seem even lackluster compared to the standards of yesteryear. I was a citizen 18 months later and I can remember much more epic and meaningful contributions than what was added to there. Mere presence and participation in events from our primordial past are not in and of themselves reason for award and I would have to say that witnessing recent events, that mere participation might be overshadowed by suspect acts of the present.

    I'm not claiming to have a 360 degree view of VZ's curial career, but based upon what has been highlighted in this proposal as contributions along with my own perceptions of recent events, I'm just left scratching my head. Opposed.

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    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    This is another illustrative example on why this place is avoided by the vast majority of members. His VonC was thankfully dismissed. VZ's own explanation was more than reasonable. He spend oodles of time being active trying to make this a better place. His reward, more accusations. When are people going to learn this is not the direction to go. The purpose of the Curia was not to create a role-playing apparatus but a serious attempt to help grow the site and build productive discussions that is engaging and enjoyable.



    I SUPPORT on the merits outlined by the OP.
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    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    It is difficult to elaborate on some of what I found questionable, since that material is generally behind closed doors.

    To touch on some of the thread's points;
    - I agree that simply availing yourself to a position is not enough to be considered acting with distinction. Filling shoes =/= doing something notable in them.
    - Though duties were (usually) done and done moderately well, there was nothing to me that spoke of 'distinction' anymore than my lingering is 'service with distinction'. If my activity so far was to continue in the position for 3 years straight, I'd outright refuse this award.
    - I can't speak of the historical record. There was a time I'd go 'ooh' with it. These days, distinction should be measured by one's ability to fight against the stream, not go with it. The past simply lead to where we are now, and I can't really comment on historical records. It's more recent times that stand out to me. Recent times indicate little to stand out. I will say, some effort was put in to change, some initiative was made and pursued... somewhat. Can't take that level away, this isn't an issue of doing absolutely nothing.

    I can see where the above from Pontifex is going; the bar was probably significantly higher in a more active time, and for the standards of its time there may well have been nothing special. But again, can't really comment. I was pumped out the drain into the twilight years.

    I'm going to abstain since I frankly don't have the care to actually shoot this down and there are one or two merits. But I don't see enough here to move it to vote, let alone vote in favor.

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    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    There are quite a few arguments to be said either way regarding Van Zandts behaviour, and though he's spent quite some time serving, not all of it has been without drama. There was the Vonc that barely didn't succeed, some harsh words here and there and However, despite a lot of negative attention that has gone towards him, he has still cared about the Curia and his job in there. And actually caring is rare these days, and something that shouldn't go entirely ignored. Completing a 12 month term is quite impressive in 2020, in my opinion, though as stated what you do in those 12 months is what truly matters.

    I'm therefore leaning towards abstain on this one.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    I support Van Zandt.

  18. #18
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    not really, since he did a lot in the old Curia as well (see the OP, always check the OP eh ); I concur though that the attitude issues highlighted by GB are a serious concern, maybe he can expand on that? I always assumed that when one is not doing their job as a Curial officer there's the VonC, is this the case? More info will help people to decide, either way (I mean I personally believe that a long service is worth a recognition in any case, but maybe someone else doesn't ).

    every input is welcome, for the sake of a fair procedure
    I believe the old Curia was the CdeC or am I mistaken here.


    I also found another proposal that VZ posted in a public forum and he did that without being sanctioned from hex (I think he should ask a hex for permission and at that time lolIsuck was a modding hex).
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    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    ^^ He might have been too zealous but I'm not convinced it would have deserved a sanction. That's a bit harsh imo.
    Also, this proposal was related to the Modding Staff rather to the Curia itself. I mean, it was done by a Citizen like any other can do. Not especially relevant to the Curial Service Award
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  20. #20
    Nicholas Rush's Avatar Destiny is all
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    Default Re: [AWARD] Van Zandt for Curia Service Award

    I feel that some of the inaccurate statements in this thread should be addressed.

    Is that all he did in the Curia?

    That barely count as 10% of what is expected from a citizen to accomplish in one of the Curial positions in the Curia.
    I have served over 24 months in the curia that is 4x the amount specified for this award.


    He didn't even finish out a term in any office but this one...
    All were full terms. Both Consilium Pacis and Concilium Bella were elected 2 month terms. The Committee for the Expansion of TWC was an invited position and we only met for about a month and a half. The Temp Censor and Curial Assistant position are what they are, and I served full terms for Praefect and Primus Praefect.

    where he ignored the majority of his duties ..
    I addressed every issue that was brought forward.
    Last edited by Nicholas Rush; July 24, 2020 at 09:26 PM. Reason: Add Information



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