Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

[PointOfViewGun]

Most of the basic elements are there, and have been maintained and renovated over time (e.g. the mihrab, minbar etc). It is a museum to it's Islamic past as well as it's Christian past. So potentially it could open tomorrow for small services - part of me thinks that other than the initial show-off celebration that's all it will ever host because I think everybody seems to understand this is political.

It would take a lot of work to bring the supporting facilities up to the standard of any other mosque in the neighbourhood to handle large crowds. I last visited in winter and it was freezing cold and draughty - not exactly pleasant - compared the Sultan Ahmed Mosque which was carpeted, warm and cosy.

I'm sure our Turkish forum folk could enlighten us further.

Most mosques are freezing cold when there is no service. They use carpets with electric heaters inside to warm it up a little bit. The real problem is the images. There can be no proper prayer where there is pictures of people. Many Muslims even put away family pictures when they pray at home. So, they will have to find a way to cover the pictures that were unearthed when the mosque was converted to a museum. Erdoğan sadid it would take 6 months of work to turn it fully back into a mosque though the first service is to be held next Friday.

Last year Erdoğan himself shut down the calls for Haghia Sophia to be turned into a mosque by saying that as long as people don't fill the Blue mosque for prayers there was no point in turning Haghia Sophia into a mosque as well. There are so many mosques in that district that its impossible to fill them up regularly beyond special services.

EDIT: Just read an article saying that they will try to use a special lighting system to darken the images of people during prayer. Might turn out to be an interesting application.

[caratacus]

This is an ancient building that needs respect, not to be part of an egotistical leader’s pathetic attempt at playing power politics.

It was built as a Christian Orthodox building, but the use for other religious services would not be inappropriate as long as it respected the building. This plainly though is not the intention here, only a display of deviance against foreign influence. Are there no Islamic architects, builders craftspeople in Turkey to constrict a new grand mosque to the glory of God, instead of utilising an old Christian church? What about using some of those who worked on Erdogan's private palace, to build something fitting for the 21st century? Then again, looking at that monstrosity, probably not.

A shame that a country that had so much promise for the century ahead, is allowing itself to be led down a avenue of folly.

[PointOfViewGun]

As far as I know Haghia Sophia defined mosque designs for all mosques coming after it's conquest.

A few modern mosque examples from Turkey:

Çamlıca Mosque




Beştepe Millet Mosque




İstanbul Airport Mosque




Grand mosques built after conquest of Constantinople:

Süleymaniye Mosque




Sultan Ahmet Mosque (Blue Mosque)




Fatih Mosque

[caratacus]

As far as I know Haghia Sophia defined mosque designs for all mosques coming after it's conquest.

It certainly did so looking at these pictures. The Çamlıca Mosque is very impersssive indeed, both inside and out and does show a high sttandard of design and craftsmanship. Did Erdogan commision its construction? There does seem to be a growth in large mosque construction since he came to power, which is no bad thing. But surely makes the need for converting Hagia Sophia considerably less I would have thourght.

The rise of the Turkish mega mosque -Capturing the country’s building bonanza
https://thespaces.com/norman-behrendt-brave-new-turkey/

[Nebaki]

The mosque was turned into a museum with Atatürk's signature. He also oversaw renovations done on the building. So, yeah, he wouldn't be too happy in his grave.

1. Atatürk is Death!
2. You cannot compare his Timeline on the current one.

[PointOfViewGun]

1. Atatürk is Death!
2. You cannot compare his Timeline on the current one.

Atatürk is dead, sure. There is no difference in circumstances that would change his opinion about Haghia Sophia.

[Alexander78]

I will not comment on some of the statements mentioned here, because I do not see the point in arguing with people who will not accept what I say here. I will say only one thing: whatever he did in the future and no matter how he was justified, the Orthodox world will not forgive him for it. That's all you need to know about it.

[Nebaki]

Atatürk is dead, sure. There is no difference in circumstances that would change his opinion about Haghia Sophia.

You cannot know that. You only can speculate about his quotitians which are for sure just presented by someones who claim to be his followers.

I will not comment on some of the statements mentioned here, because I do not see the point in arguing with people who will not accept what I say here. I will say only one thing: whatever he did in the future and no matter how he was justified, the Orthodox world will not forgive him for it. That's all you need to know about it.

For the Orthodox world Turkey must be conquered according to some Byzantophiles and his Muslim Population must be purged/converted to their PoV. The Orthodox World should first accept that since 1453 Constantinople now Istanbul and anything which it contains belongs to the Turks, People of Turkey and not something like this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What kind of hypocrisy is this please?

[PointOfViewGun]

You cannot know that. You only can speculate about his quotitians which are for sure just presented by someones who claim to be his followers.

I can safely assume that. The fact that you're not giving us any substance to back up your position is testimony to that.

[Nebaki]

I can safely assume that. The fact that you're not giving us any substance to back up your position is testimony to that.

Who is please "us" ? a little bit more clarification please.

[skh1]

So long as the fabric of the building is maintained and nothing irrevocable is done to damage the integrity of the structure, we may await the inevitable eclipse of the ephemeral Mr. Erdoğan and his peculiar whimsies with a calm, confident and, one may even go so far as to say, even an insouciant patience.

[PointOfViewGun]

Who is please "us" ? a little bit more clarification please.

People in this thread.

[Alexander78]

@Nebaki
Without empty words and any innuendos, I have only one question: do you personally support the decision to convert an Orthodox Shrine into a mosque? You personally, just yes or no.

[PointOfViewGun]

The damage Haghia Sophia received is largely due to riots in the Eastern Roman Empire and the looting of crusaders. The public saw the building as more of sign of vanity of the Roman emperors and often damaged it significantly during their attempts to take down the emperor. Fourth Crusade, equally, if not more, damaged the building during their looting to use the wealth of the city to fund their army. In contrast, Ottomans did not cover up the mosaics right after the conquest. Sultans regularly called in artisans in service of European Christian kings to restore and maintain the building. Instead of hacking them off they lightly covered them which enabled them to be unearthed years later. Some sultans even veneered them as they saw Virgin Mary and the accompanying angels as the guardians of the city.

Saving a Fabled Sanctuary

Hagia Sophia's mosaics were also admired by Sultan Abdülmecid in the nineteenth century. He gazed for a long time at the mosaics of Jesus and Mary, then commented, "They are all very beautiful, but for the time it is not appropriate to leave them visible. Clean them and cover them over again carefully, so that they may survive until they are revealed to view in the future." Gaspare and Giuseppe Fossati, the sultan's Swiss architects, completed the necessary structural repairs to the building, and by 1849 Hagia Sophia's exquisite mosaics were covered by fresh plaster painted with Gaspare's hybrid Ottoman-Byzantine motifs.

[antaeus]

@Nebaki
Without empty words and any innuendos, I have only one question: do you personally support the decision to convert an Orthodox Shrine into a mosque? You personally, just yes or no.

Just for clarity of the conversation... is Hagia Sophia currently an active Orthodox shrine?

The danger of this thread is that it is going to turn into a mud slinging match which won't be particularly enjoyable for most of us who aren't Turkish or Greek (or other orthodox). So perhaps we should stay on topic as best we can... that a museum with significant historic pan-Christian and Muslim traditions in Istanbul is going to be turned into a mosque.

From what we can tell, access will not be limited in any way. So Orthodox Christians are likely still going to be able to visit the building to see what all the fuss is about. Whether Orthodox mosaics are hidden by lighting effects or behind curtains or what ever during services, you'll likely still be able to see them too. This isn't Bamiyan and Erdoğan isn't the Taliban.

[Alexander78]

Just for clarity of the conversation... is Hagia Sophia currently an active Orthodox shrine?

If services are not held in a Hagia Sophia (for reasons beyond the control of the Orthodox Church), Sophia does not cease to be a Shrine. For millions of Orthodox people, this is a Holy place and will remain so despite the will of any short-sighted politicians. I have no doubt that Erdogan was fully aware of what he was doing and what would follow. This is the whole diabolical background of his intentions. God is his judge.

The danger of this thread is that it is going to turn into a mud slinging match which won't be particularly enjoyable for most of us who aren't Turkish or Greek (or other orthodox).

In this I agree with you, so this post in this thread is the last for me. Above, I asked one of the commentators a question. Now I understand that I don't need his answer at all, because it won't change anything.

Erdoğan isn't the Taliban.

We'll see.

[swabian]

Is there really changing so much for the Orthodox church now? That would be a fact that i wouldn't have considered - if it's true.

EDIT: because i thought it was established that this is just some populist move by Erdogan.

[PointOfViewGun]

So Erdoğan converted the building to a full mosque just to spite Christians? That would be putting too much relevance to Christians themselves in a topic they're mostly trivial to.

[Nebaki]

People in this thread.

How People in this Thread like this are the followers of Atatürk?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EU is already talking about sanctions and reparations to Greece and Cyprus. This move also pissed off the entire Orthodox world, so semi friendly countries like Romania may react negatively. Russia will definitely take offense.

The reparations are for Erdogan's blue water imperialism, not for this, but this might help convince people on the fence.

I favor a Crusade to liberate Constantinople from the Turks, personally.

Deus vult!

So again a little bit more clarification please.

@Nebaki
Without empty words and any innuendos, I have only one question: do you personally support the decision to convert an Orthodox Shrine into a mosque? You personally, just yes or no.

It was already converted into a Mosque after the conquest of constantinople which we called Istanbul. We can even Discuss how Constantinople was in a stage even before the Siege on it, how

well the East Roman Empire has maintained his religious buildings. That Orthodox Shrine you call has even today his minarets.

But i totally support it under the current foreign circumstances in which Turkey is struggling, isn´t it funny how People use Erdogan and his followers to just bring their old hatred against Turkey
and turkish People.

[PointOfViewGun]

How People in this Thread like this are the followers of Atatürk?

I didn't indicate in any way that "us" was followers of Atatürk. Not sure why you're following such a line of argumentation instead of trying to tell us why Atatürk would act differently today...