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Thread: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

  1. #41

    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    But i totally support it under the current foreign circumstances in which Turkey is struggling, isn´t it funny how People use Erdogan and his followers to just bring their old hatred against Turkey
    and turkish People.
    This is exactly the kind of rhetoric that Erdogan intends to stir, and will use. It's dictatorship 101. Every dictatorship frequently harass and tries to pick a fight with neighboring countries over any possible excuse. China is doing it, Russia is doing it, North Korea tries that even though it's virtually impotent in that, Iran does it...
    Because if they succeed in gaining anything, no matter how inconsequential, they can parade it as success to strengthen their image, and if there is resistance, they'll overblow it to stir a feeling that there is a foreign hostility toward their nation and people, which they use to rally people and quiet the dissenters, who can be arrested on excuse of being "unpatriotic troublemakers" and "collaborators with foreign enemy". That's how they keep the population in line and unable to voice their own opinions. That's whole purpose of this move, and you're playing right into Erdogan's hands. Because in truth, the hostility isn't toward Turkish people, but toward Erdogan, his nascent dictatorship and its aggression.

  2. #42
    Stario's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    ...tell us why Atatürk would act differently today
    Ataturks' goal was to "Westernise" Turkey. In the 70's/80's hardly a burka insight; take a trip to Turkey today- 90% burkas. Turkey is regressing back to extremism...Ataturk would be turning in his grave :-<

  3. #43

    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    Ataturks' goal was to "Westernise" Turkey. In the 70's/80's hardly a burka insight; take a trip to Turkey today- 90% burkas. Turkey is regressing back to extremism...Ataturk would be turning in his grave :-<
    Correction here. His intention was to secularize Turkey, not westernize it like, for example, Reza Pahlavi tried in Iran. He knew that religious influence on politics and economy was what dragged Ottoman Empire down so he fought to eliminate it, but he also promoted distinct Turkish cultural identity to hold the country together, even at great expense of minorities within Turkey.

  4. #44
    Stario's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    There are distinct traditions of secularism in the West, IE. the French and Anglo-American models...but ye "Secularism" is perhaps a more appropriate word. But this is just a matter of 'linguistics', I think most 'forumers' will know what I meant.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    Ataturks' goal was to "Westernise" Turkey. In the 70's/80's hardly a burka insight; take a trip to Turkey today- 90% burkas. Turkey is regressing back to extremism...Ataturk would be turning in his grave :-<
    90% burqas in Turkey now? What is this? A Man in the High Castle version of Turkey? Why do you even make such statements if they will be so utterly false?
    The Armenian Issue

  6. #46

    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I didn't indicate in any way that "us" was followers of Atatürk. Not sure why you're following such a line of argumentation instead of trying to tell us why Atatürk would act differently today...
    I already told it to you - Atatürk lived on a different Timeline, he was on Power in Turkey from 1922 until 1938 when he was trying to bring some reforms in Turkey. But he always acted on a realistic way and not followed strictly his ideals.

    But today we are in 2020 and not 1935, but your PoV are the Ideals of Atatürk and your argumentation is just that anything must be followed strictly on his PoV (Atatürk) without any criticism on that decisions, but you cannot compare the 20th Century to the 21th Century or even can came up with the argumentation that he would act same as in 1935.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    This is exactly the kind of rhetoric that Erdogan intends to stir, and will use.
    It wouldn't change much with Erdogan or not - that behaviour against Turkey will still be remained even if that country becomes on a ironically the most peaceful Country.

    Erdogan is just an excuse which many of People like in this Thread are using to express their hatred against Turkey or Turkish People.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Because in truth, the hostility isn't toward Turkish people, but toward Erdogan, his nascent dictatorship and its aggression.
    For an example Greece Education System is teaching to prepare themselve against foreign enemies (espcecially Turkey) but we can also add to countries like Bulgaria, Armenia, Serbia or even Romania which are using the same Model.

    But if the hostility isn't toward Turkish people why they are then burning a Turkish Flag? Why i don´t see Pictures of Erdogan? as I said it´s just an welcomed excuse to making stuff like this:


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; July 13, 2020 at 12:04 PM. Reason: Off-topic pic removed

  7. #47

    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    It wouldn't change much with Erdogan or not - that behaviour against Turkey will still be remained even if that country becomes on a ironically the most peaceful Country.

    Erdogan is just an excuse which many of People like in this Thread are using to express their hatred against Turkey or Turkish People.



    For an example Greece Education System is teaching to prepare themselve against foreign enemies (espcecially Turkey) but we can also add to countries like Bulgaria, Armenia, Serbia or even Romania which are using the same Model.

    But if the hostility isn't toward Turkish people why they are then burning a Turkish Flag? Why i don´t see Pictures of Erdogan? as I said it´s just an welcomed excuse to making stuff like this:


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    With the history that these countries have, you'll get a few radicals on all sides. But the vicious circle of mutual hate was fading away in recent decades, until Erdogan took power. He's been using these vestiges to restart a spiral of hate to keep him in power, because he needs external enemy, like any dictator. Just look what he really did to Turkey. Where are Turkish independent media and freedom of information? Where is free exchange of ideas and quality, secular education at universities? Where is Turkish economy, as he drives the country away from the western market?

    Of course, if you're blind enough, you'll ignore the reasoning and historical parallels that clearly show what is Erdogan really doing and instead you'll blindly follow him into propelling the hate spiral further. But don't come crying when Erdogan, desperate to keep his chair (and his life, because dictators like him rarely survive resignation) starts looking for a patron country to prop up the economy failing because he cut ties with west, and ends up selling (because, like any diplomacy, it'll be a deal, and Turkey, as desperate party, will certainly get fleeced) Turkish freedom and independence to masters far less benevolent than west ever was.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; July 13, 2020 at 12:05 PM. Reason: Quote edited for continuity

  8. #48

    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post

    It was built as a Christian Orthodox building, but the use for other religious services would not be inappropriate as long as it respected the building.
    What makes you think it would be appropriate? Muslims can make their namaz anywhere except of cemetery, bath and toilet, so yes, for them it is appropriate as long as they understand their religion that much. Christians use wine for worship, which in Islam is considered "unclean", as well as images of animals and people (including prophets), and Muslims should better avoid such places. They don't as you can see.
    Now, is this appropriate for Christians? It is offense in every sense.

    And more: Mosaics, frescoes in Hagia Sophia 'to be covered up with laser lights'
    https://www.duvarenglish.com/politic...-laser-lights/

  9. #49

    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    Islamists have convinced themselves that Hagia Sophia's status was strictly connected our iNdEpEnDeNcE. They created this symbolism, which has no real basis. Nobody, other then them, took the status of the building as a criteria for the independence of Turkey, nor Ataturk was forced to turn it into a museum. Fanatics of all kinds just love symbolism so much.

    They also try to soften the consequences of decision by blabbering to foreigners about how the entrance is free now and how it is still a world heritage site etc. Lol at least be straight and acknowlodge that it is all about a primitive act of establishing dominance.

    I have no problem with its status as a mosque, but i really had enough of those people.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    I already told it to you - Atatürk lived on a different Timeline, he was on Power in Turkey from 1922 until 1938 when he was trying to bring some reforms in Turkey. But he always acted on a realistic way and not followed strictly his ideals.

    But today we are in 2020 and not 1935, but your PoV are the Ideals of Atatürk and your argumentation is just that anything must be followed strictly on his PoV (Atatürk) without any criticism on that decisions, but you cannot compare the 20th Century to the 21th Century or even can came up with the argumentation that he would act same as in 1935.
    You're not presenting any argument to substantiate that claim. You're merely saying that they're different times. Instead of trying to make assumptions on what I think you should try to explain why today Atatürk wouldn't want to keep Haghia Sophia as a museum.
    The Armenian Issue

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    Didn't Erdogan said last year Hagia Sofia would only then be a theme again, if Sultan Ahmed Mosque would be filled with praying people as its nearly empty?

    As many already said, it shall only distract from Turkey's serious economic problems because of Corona and because of Erdogan's foreign policy, which is stepping on everybody's feet.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  12. #52
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    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    The declaration of the status change of Agia Sofia has an interesting point.
    Erdogan said that is Turkey's right as QONQUERORS of the city to make the monument what they want. From this we understand that Turks still feel alliens to the lands they live in and have the constant fear of become a horde again. So they need actions to remind to the rest of the world that they are still strong TO HOLD lands they do not belong to them. It would be natural that after so many centuries Turks would see themselves as part of the lands they live in and with them part of the heritage they carry through out history.
    Another point is the FEAR of the Turks to change the name of the monument. So despite being a Mosque the name alone will remind to them that its not someting they created and be proud of.
    I want to remind that Prophet Mohamad (Bless on His Name) has FORBITEN Muslims to convert OR destroy Churches , Monasteries and monk cells. In fact he ORDERED Muslims to protect Christians , their Churches and Monasteries!
    The ONLY Muslim countries that did not obey is Turkey and Albania!
    Erdogan's desision opens a new war front -not between Christians and Muslims- but between Muslims . Sia and Suni Islam will clash "defending" Prophet's Orders or "defending" the heretic islam of Erdogan.
    Here is a Muslim's point of view about this matter:


    Erdogan tried so hard to show him self as the new Chaliph of entire Islam but what he achieved is another war between Sia and Suni!
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
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  13. #53
    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    This is just more proof that Islam and a secular democratic government are incompatible. Islam will always revert to its original designs. I can recall on this forum where people used Turkey as proof that Islam and a secular democratic government were compatible. It always comes back to this type of behavior.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Just look what he really did to Turkey. Where are Turkish independent media and freedom of information? Where is free exchange of ideas and quality, secular education at universities? Where is Turkish economy, as he drives the country away from the western market?

    Of course, if you're blind enough, you'll ignore the reasoning and historical parallels that clearly show what is Erdogan really doing and instead you'll blindly follow him into propelling the hate spiral further. But don't come crying when Erdogan, desperate to keep his chair (and his life, because dictators like him rarely survive resignation) starts looking for a patron country to prop up the economy failing because he cut ties with west, and ends up selling (because, like any diplomacy, it'll be a deal, and Turkey, as desperate party, will certainly get fleeced) Turkish freedom and independence to masters far less benevolent than west ever was.
    What is for you please independent media and freedom of information? What is for you please free exchange of ideas and quality, secular education at universities? Turkish economy is affected like all current Economies at the moment due to some known reasons in the past and the Pandemic.

    Please just tell me where you get your Source that Turkey is lacking more independent media and freedom of information or free exchange of ideas and quality, secular education at universities? And please give us a little more clarification about those historical parallels.

    Blaming Erdogan for with the Argument
    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    to prop up the economy failing because he cut ties with west, and ends up selling....
    is just hypocrisy and nothing else, you just even skipped many subjects in my previous post because you are the one who is here blinded from the Fact that is not acceptable for you that Hagia Sophia is now turned ones again in a Mosque <--- property of Turkey and Turkish People.

    I see many parallels of you in this Topic: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...blicity-here)!

    You are even not respecting my PoV or even one of the Subjects that i mentioned, you have your opinion and you are trying just to express harder if someone is not arguing with you.



    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You're not presenting any argument to substantiate that claim. You're merely saying that they're different times. Instead of trying to make assumptions on what I think you should try to explain why today Atatürk wouldn't want to keep Haghia Sophia as a museum.
    We can really debate about (Hagia Sophia) why it was turned from a Mosque into a Museum but as i mentioned before you are already expressed your view about this and are not respecting my Opinion in this case. Today nobody gives a mind about the views of Atatürk and no one lived his life to get that view. He was not a fool to stick on a outdated World View to just appease the Orthodox World which are spitting on his Name and would use any opportunity to re-name Istanbul to Konstantinopel.

    Maybe you forgot it but Atatürk lived in the last times of the Ottoman Empire and was a General of the Imperial Ottoman Army and this are my last word in this case to you.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    Let me apologize for not having the time to read everything that has been posted here, I just have a question for PointOfViewGun and anyone who might be knowledgeable about this:
    I your opinion, do you estimate that the edifice will be better looked after than before, now that it is a mosque?

  16. #56

    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    What is for you please independent media and freedom of information? What is for you please free exchange of ideas and quality, secular education at universities? Turkish economy is affected like all current Economies at the moment due to some known reasons in the past and the Pandemic.

    Please just tell me where you get your Source that Turkey is lacking more independent media and freedom of information or free exchange of ideas and quality, secular education at universities? And please give us a little more clarification about those historical parallels.

    Blaming Erdogan for with the Argument is just hypocrisy and nothing else, you just even skipped many subjects in my previous post because you are the one who is here blinded from the Fact that is not acceptable for you that Hagia Sophia is now turned ones again in a Mosque <--- property of Turkey and Turkish People.

    I see many parallels of you in this Topic: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...blicity-here)!

    You are even not respecting my PoV or even one of the Subjects that i mentioned, you have your opinion and you are trying just to express harder if someone is not arguing with you.





    We can really debate about (Hagia Sophia) why it was turned from a Mosque into a Museum but as i mentioned before you are already expressed your view about this and are not respecting my Opinion in this case. Today nobody gives a mind about the views of Atatürk and no one lived his life to get that view. He was not a fool to stick on a outdated World View to just appease the Orthodox World which are spitting on his Name and would use any opportunity to re-name Istanbul to Konstantinopel.

    Maybe you forgot it but Atatürk lived in the last times of the Ottoman Empire and was a General of the Imperial Ottoman Army and this are my last word in this case to you.
    Y'know, you're really not worth the effort of fishing for specific articles, but 2016 is still in quite fresh memory, and Wikipedia has great summaries:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey..._d%27%C3%A9tat
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E...rges_in_Turkey

    Oh wait, I just read in it that Wikipedia is blocked in Turkey. That, I believe, says everything necessary about state of access to information and freedom of media in Turkey. By the way, during Erdogan's reign, Turkey went down by over 50 places in freedom of the press, currently being ranked 154th, below countries like Russia, Belarus, Pakistan or Venezuela.

    It also means that you probably won't be able to read what I'd link about the historic developments, so I won't bother. The parallels between the rise of Erdogan and Hitler or wake of 1987 Islamic revolution on Iran, and many others. Because most dictators have to follow certain patterns to gain power. So far, Erdogan follows it almost religiously.

    Turkey's economy was going down before corona, and it was Erdogan's fault. You see, it's international trade that brings in big money. And the companies that deal in international trade value political stability. They like not having to pay heavy tariffs due to trade wars, have their assets seized by government or destroyed by mob or as collateral damage in civil war. Such possibilities make investing in those countries a risky move. Erdogan destabilized the political situation when he started picking fights with EU members and showing dangerous combination of economic illiteracy and increasing despotism, and so made companies gradually move away from Turkey, causing 2018 Turkish economic crisis, which hasn't been really resolved until now.

    As for respect and expression of opinion, it's not what you think it is. It doesn't mean automatically agreeing with you, but discussing, and disagreeing, within standards of civilized discussion, rather than trying to portray your opponents as hateful fanatics, and so far, you've been given here more respect than you show yourself-or, based on your behavior here, deserve. Unless you actually start acting here like a civilized person, I'm not wasting any more time on you.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    Islamists have convinced themselves that Hagia Sophia's status was strictly connected our iNdEpEnDeNcE. They created this symbolism, which has no real basis. Nobody, other then them, took the status of the building as a criteria for the independence of Turkey, nor Ataturk was forced to turn it into a museum. Fanatics of all kinds just love symbolism so much.

    They also try to soften the consequences of decision by blabbering to foreigners about how the entrance is free now and how it is still a world heritage site etc. Lol at least be straight and acknowlodge that it is all about a primitive act of establishing dominance.

    I have no problem with its status as a mosque, but i really had enough of those people.
    The voice of reason. I must spread some reputation around before I rep Turecki again.

    Its up to the people of Turkiyye what they do with their buildings. Erdogan looks like a desperate populist trying to give his followers something to get excited about, I think he's a bad guy and I won't let him rile me up.

    As an Australian I have reason to be an admirer of Mustapha Kemal: he is known for his courage and his humanity toward our dead (when we invaded his country in large part so France and Italy could colonise it). He is not idolised here but he founded a national state fort the Turks out of the ruins of the Osmanli polity which was a very great achievement. He even made friends with the Hellenes: what a contrast those leaders (Ataturk and Venizelos) are with the current worms .

    Symbols have meaning. It was a slap to the Islamic faith that the Hagia Sophia was made a museum and I regret that: I do not regret the slap directed at Islamist politicians. Likewise restoring it as a Mosque is a very great thing for our Islamic Turkish friends, it recalls a romantic past and it must be a beautiful place to worship in, but I regret the machinations of a leader trying to leverage faith and anti-foreign sentiment or some cartoon version of the past for his own political preservation.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  18. #58

    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    We can really debate about (Hagia Sophia) why it was turned from a Mosque into a Museum but as i mentioned before you are already expressed your view about this and are not respecting my Opinion in this case. Today nobody gives a mind about the views of Atatürk and no one lived his life to get that view. He was not a fool to stick on a outdated World View to just appease the Orthodox World which are spitting on his Name and would use any opportunity to re-name Istanbul to Konstantinopel.

    Maybe you forgot it but Atatürk lived in the last times of the Ottoman Empire and was a General of the Imperial Ottoman Army and this are my last word in this case to you.
    You're still not telling us why Atatürk would choose differently today...


    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    Let me apologize for not having the time to read everything that has been posted here, I just have a question for PointOfViewGun and anyone who might be knowledgeable about this:
    I your opinion, do you estimate that the edifice will be better looked after than before, now that it is a mosque?
    Either as a museum or a as a mosque the building was under the ownership of the government. So, in that regard not much would change. Though the new attention might bring more funds. Nonetheless, the maintenance of the building was always an international effort as the Turkish government often called in European scholars to help maintain different parts of the building along with Turkish scholars.
    Last edited by Aexodus; July 18, 2020 at 08:25 PM. Reason: off topic
    The Armenian Issue

  19. #59
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Either as a museum or a as a mosque the building was under the ownership of the government.
    So, in that regard not much would change. Though the new attention might bring more funds.
    Nonetheless, the maintenance of the building was always an international effort as the Turkish government often called in European scholars to help maintain different parts of the building along with Turkish scholars.
    More funds can't be a bad thing.
    I was also inquiring about the reverence with which the building will be viewed now that it is a mosque again.
    Do you reckon there will be greater reverence for the monument?
    If there is greater reverence for the monument, do you reckon it will induce greater diligence and conscientiousness regarding the efforts to keep it in the best condition possible?




    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    Islamists have convinced themselves that Hagia Sophia's status was strictly connected our iNdEpEnDeNcE.
    ...
    It seems they believe the conversion of a historical monument to a mosque is a symbol of the restoration of faith and "piety" in the primacy of the criteria by which the business of state and society is run.
    On the part of the government, it's posturing about "piety", the religious version of "moral high ground", which in their view should grand their political speech greater gravitas than that of their opponents.
    In the west, we've been seeing the secular version of this in the form of political correctness for a few decades now:
    The elevation of moral posturing about sensitivity at the expense of pragmatic reality.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    ...
    Lol at least be straight and acknowledge that it is all about a primitive act of establishing dominance.
    ...
    That part is implicit but none the less, as clear and visible as daylight, perhaps that is the reason they don't bother to mention it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    ...
    I have no problem with its status as a mosque, but i really had enough of those people.
    Haven't we all?
    It's been more than two decades now but I still remember the over one million people large demonstration in Athens protesting the removal of creed from the personal information listed in identification cards.
    Religion has always been a source of a sense of identity -and belonging- for the least sophisticated.
    Combine that with the marxian "the personal is the political" (creed is always personal) and you have the islamic version of identity politics.

    Words authored by Frank Herbert ring in my head:
    "When religion and politics ride in the same cart the whirlwind follows".

  20. #60
    Beorn's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Hagia Sophia: Turkey turns iconic Istanbul museum into mosque

    As long as no further damage is done to the murals,the decorations and the infrastructure of the building itself, I am kinda OK with its use as a mosque. When Erdogan's quasi-dictatorship finally ends, I hope that it will be restored again as a museum.

    Anyway, he achieved his goal, he "stuck it" to the foreigners who try to meddle with the "oUr GrEaT nAtIoN", showing to his nationalist and backward base of followers that he is the Defender of Turkey and Islam, and at the same time forced his political opponents to take a stance on the matter, having to choose between 2 undesirable options, supporting his decision or disapproving and appearing "unpatriotic" and foreign pawns.

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