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Thread: New historically accurate units that could be added

  1. #1

    Default New historically accurate units that could be added

    I know the unit roster is already broad yet more units could add even more to it... let's start with some of them, as far as i know.

    Veteran silver shields: according to Plutarch, in the life of Eumenes, one of Alexander's closest companions: the argiraspidai betrayed Eumenes when facing Antigonos, because he captured all their belongings and families and asked to hand him their commander in return. They were all men beyond 60 years old but extremely experienced phalangites who were considered invincible on the battlefield. They could be added as an expensive but almost unbreakable troop of phalangites, even surpassing the already strong agema basilikon.

    Gladiators: even if they are not field soldiers, it is known that gladiators participated sometimes in battle either as rebels or hastily equipped troops. Beside spartacus famous rebellion, gladiators also appeared in one rebellion in gaul, according to tacitus, they were called " cruppellari " as they were covered in metal and almost invulnerable to harm. They could be added as some kind of rebels or readily avaiable but expensive troops, or both...

    Armoured legionnaires: as the romans faced the parthian horse archers and generally masses of bow armed troops in the east, it was necessary to change the equipment of the legionnaires according to the danger. It' not impossible that legionnaires garrisoned in the east wore extra armour for the arms and legs in order to better resist the endless volleys of arrows that rained on them. I don't know the source but it is highly likely that some kind of extra armoured legionnaires could have existed.

    Bronze shields phalangites: as the pikemen in the seleucid armies were a threat to be dealt with, the kings of pontus trained their own response in the form of elite phalangites, named " bronze shields " and equipped similarly to other phalangites, but with superior training and weapons. King Pharnakes I who ruled pontus from 190 b.c. to 155 b.c. had this kind of troops in order to face the phalangites that the diadochoi fielded.
    Last edited by randy_cat; January 14, 2022 at 04:19 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: New historically accurate units that could be added

    For now i will stop with these, if anyone has suggestions, you are welcome to put them here. I will add more when i get my mind into it...

  3. #3

    Default Re: New historically accurate units that could be added

    As far as I know, the veteran Silver-Shields of Alexander's anabasis were killed off by Antigonos when he sent them on suicide mission to the east. There is no possibility of recreating a unit of veterans that was the result of a decade long campaign across the world (casually). Moreover, as you can imagine, recruiting a unit that was intentionally wiped out is rather ahistorical. As for the Bronze-Shields, I'm pretty sure the Agema Basilikon of Pontos already represents this unit.

  4. #4

    Default Re: New historically accurate units that could be added

    Quote Originally Posted by randy_cat View Post
    I know the unit roster is already broad yet more units could add even more to it... let's start with some of them, as far as i know.

    Veteran silver shields: according to Plutarch, in the life of Eumenes, one of Alexander's closest companions: the argiraspidai betrayed Eumenes when facing Antigonos, because he captured all their belongings and families and asked to hand him their commander in return. They were all men beyond 60 years old but extremely experienced phalangites who were considered invincible on the battlefield. They could be added as an expensive but almost unbreakable troop of phalangites, even surpassing the already strong agema basilikon.

    Bronze shields phalangites: as the pikemen in the seleucid armies were a threat to be dealt with, the kings of pontus trained their own response in the form of elite phalangites, named " bronze shields " and equipped similarly to other phalangites, but with superior training and weapons. King Pharnakes I who ruled pontus from 190 b.c. to 155 b.c. had this kind of troops in order to face the phalangites that the diadochoi fielded.

    We already have elite phalanxes, these would use two unit slots without adding anything new. Not only that, by the time of the game start, all of Alexander's veterans are long dead.

  5. #5

    Default Re: New historically accurate units that could be added

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleitus the Pink View Post
    As far as I know, the veteran Silver-Shields of Alexander's anabasis were killed off by Antigonos when he sent them on suicide mission to the east. There is no possibility of recreating a unit of veterans that was the result of a decade long campaign across the world (casually). Moreover, as you can imagine, recruiting a unit that was intentionally wiped out is rather ahistorical. As for the Bronze-Shields, I'm pretty sure the Agema Basilikon of Pontos already represents this unit.
    Well, yeah they were sent by antigonos to one of his allies with the order to kill them in dangerous missions because together they formed a force that could not be defeated, they were also treacherous soldiers who sold themselves to the highest bidder. So they could not exist in EB2 timeframe, ok. As for the bronze shields, they could replace agema basilikon for pontos, with different textures i guess, but ok, they are similar units.

    Another unit that could be present: according to caesar himself, some of the germans fought in a tight shield wall similar to hoplite phalanx and the legionnaires had trouble breaking them. They also had a peculiar fighting formation in the form of a charging wedge, where the toughest men were placed in the front of the wedge, and behind all the rest... this proved very effective until caesar arrived with his superior strategy and soldiers and wiped them out. They also ( the germans ) had light foot troops that ran together with horsemen by grapping themselves to the horse's hair in order to run faster, throw javelins then retreating fast.

    There could be room for some kind of dismounted cataphracts, as the eastern kingdoms lacked in heavy infantry and the noblemen probably dismounted to assault a city. I wish knights and such could dismount before battle like in the old MTW, it makes the game more realistic and fun.

    Another one could be roman sagitarii auxilia, archers with tough training and superior armament.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: New historically accurate units that could be added

    Quote Originally Posted by randy_cat View Post

    Another one could be roman sagitarii auxilia, archers with tough training and superior armament.
    Or you can just recruit the archers from the provinces that you want and call them sagitarii auxilia.

  7. #7

    Default Re: New historically accurate units that could be added

    A few more units.

    Eastern macemen: since infantry was at a disadvantage against the fully armoured noblemen, it is likely that some foot troops wielded maces in order to beat down the armoured foes, as swords and spears were ineffective agains heavy armor. Even if i didn't find historical references, wood maces with metal heads have been found from that era.

    Agriani light infantry: i'm not sure if they were still present after alexander's death, but it is likely that they still served makedonian kings for some time, as we already know they were superior light infantry with javelins and maybe axes for melee. Their main role was harassing, flanking and assault fortifications.

    Iberian/African heavy cavalry: as far as we know Hannibal relied a lot on his cavalry to win battles, and at Cannae it is mentioned that the iberian horsemen routed the romans quite easily. Since it is unlikely that light cavalrymen like the numidians could assault and rout other cavalry, it makes sense that a core of elite heavy cavalry was present at the battle. So it is likely that iberians and probably africans too, either equipped with their own armour or with stolen stuff from the dead romans from previous battles ( it is in fact mentioned that Hannibal's soldiers looted and re-equipped themselves with panoply stolen from corpses ), fought as heavy cavalry.

  8. #8

    Default Re: New historically accurate units that could be added

    Quote Originally Posted by randy_cat View Post
    Agriani light infantry: i'm not sure if they were still present after alexander's death, but it is likely that they still served makedonian kings for some time, as we already know they were superior light infantry with javelins and maybe axes for melee. Their main role was harassing, flanking and assault fortifications.
    Do not get stuck up on the name. Agriarians were just one of many Thracian tribes, and they were most at hand due to their proximity to Macedonia. These troops are represented ingame as Peltenai and Skaplinai, and if used properly they fill the same role with same efficiency. Don't be fooled by their low melee attack, they have AP weapons and have excellent terrain modifiers. Just make sure they don't have guard mode on and don't let them defend a spot. Always issue an attack order to make them bunch up.

    Quote Originally Posted by randy_cat View Post
    Iberian/African heavy cavalry: as far as we know Hannibal relied a lot on his cavalry to win battles, and at Cannae it is mentioned that the iberian horsemen routed the romans quite easily. Since it is unlikely that light cavalrymen like the numidians could assault and rout other cavalry, it makes sense that a core of elite heavy cavalry was present at the battle. So it is likely that iberians and probably africans too, either equipped with their own armour or with stolen stuff from the dead romans from previous battles ( it is in fact mentioned that Hannibal's soldiers looted and re-equipped themselves with panoply stolen from corpses ), fought as heavy cavalry.
    Eh, no. Cavalry often fought in loose order against other cavalry, breaking up into scattered melee and skirmishing. Iberians and Numidians were known to be quite proficient in such combat, during which javelins were used as much or more than spears and swords and agility was more useful than armour.
    Last edited by Sar1n; January 17, 2022 at 10:12 AM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: New historically accurate units that could be added

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Eh, no. Cavalry often fought in loose order against other cavalry, breaking up into scattered melee and skirmishing. Iberians and Numidians were known to be quite proficient in such combat, during which javelins were used as much or more than spears and swords and agility was more useful than armour.
    He does have a point here actually. We know that Hannibal's army equipped itself with Roman gear after Lake Trasimene and that at Cannae, the left wing of the Carthaginian army which consisted of Iberian and Punic horsemen charged the Roman left as heavy cavalry would and routed it after a short melee. It was the right Numidian wing that continued to skirmish with hit-and-run attacks. As to whether such re-equipped Iberian and Punic horsemen would be viable units to add in the game, I don't know. But it's definitely a worthy suggestion.

  10. #10

    Default Re: New historically accurate units that could be added

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleitus the Pink View Post
    He does have a point here actually. We know that Hannibal's army equipped itself with Roman gear after Lake Trasimene and that at Cannae, the left wing of the Carthaginian army which consisted of Iberian and Punic horsemen charged the Roman left as heavy cavalry would and routed it after a short melee. It was the right Numidian wing that continued to skirmish with hit-and-run attacks. As to whether such re-equipped Iberian and Punic horsemen would be viable units to add in the game, I don't know. But it's definitely a worthy suggestion.
    There's already Punic lancers in game - but I don't believe there's any Iberian cavalry without javelins at present. There's some pretty strong stuff over there mind.

  11. #11

    Default Re: New historically accurate units that could be added

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Do not get stuck up on the name. Agriarians were just one of many Thracian tribes, and they were most at hand due to their proximity to Macedonia. These troops are represented ingame as Peltenai and Skaplinai, and if used properly they fill the same role with same efficiency. Don't be fooled by their low melee attack, they have AP weapons and have excellent terrain modifiers. Just make sure they don't have guard mode on and don't let them defend a spot. Always issue an attack order to make them bunch up.

    Eh, no. Cavalry often fought in loose order against other cavalry, breaking up into scattered melee and skirmishing. Iberians and Numidians were known to be quite proficient in such combat, during which javelins were used as much or more than spears and swords and agility was more useful than armour.
    Dunno exactly, but since they were so effective in Alex's campaign, it is likely agrianians became a part of the makedonian army later when Alex died. Peltenai fulfill the same role ok, yet they are not exactly the same unit. Maybe there is room for another unit of picked light infantry that serves under makedonian rulers, something between peltenai and makedonian peltastai in terms of strength.

    As for the cavalry, we know Hannibal brought with him the numidian horsemen, who fought with just javelins and maybe sword and shield but it is unlikey they routed the roman cavalry by themselves even if romans were kind of weak horsemen. So there was some sort of medium/heavy cavalry that broke the roman's left wing and allowed Hannibal to flank and surround the romans. If they were numidians or iberians that re-equipped themselves with looted gear, or they already had their own panoply, i don't know for sure. There could be room for some sort of iberian/african heavy cavalry who supported cathaginian armies, like in EB1.

  12. #12

    Default Re: New historically accurate units that could be added

    Quote Originally Posted by randy_cat View Post
    Dunno exactly, but since they were so effective in Alex's campaign, it is likely agrianians became a part of the makedonian army later when Alex died. Peltenai fulfill the same role ok, yet they are not exactly the same unit. Maybe there is room for another unit of picked light infantry that serves under makedonian rulers, something between peltenai and makedonian peltastai in terms of strength. There's also hellenized Thracian infantry that serves as middle ground between these (Katoikoi Thraikes).

    As for the cavalry, we know Hannibal brought with him the numidian horsemen, who fought with just javelins and maybe sword and shield but it is unlikey they routed the roman cavalry by themselves even if romans were kind of weak horsemen. So there was some sort of medium/heavy cavalry that broke the roman's left wing and allowed Hannibal to flank and surround the romans. If they were numidians or iberians that re-equipped themselves with looted gear, or they already had their own panoply, i don't know for sure. There could be room for some sort of iberian/african heavy cavalry who supported cathaginian armies, like in EB1.
    Peltenai are not exactly the same unit only because they represent troops from all Thracian tribes, not just Agriarians. Otherwise, they're the same thing.

    And I think you're too stuck up on the concept of heavy cavalry as was practiced in the east. Numidians and Iberians didn't have the horses for that. Oh, and in case you missed it...there are Iberian and Numidian cavalry units ingame already that have some armour (especially with reforms) and can beat the crap out of Roman Polybian cavalry in melee.

  13. #13

    Default Re: New historically accurate units that could be added

    Quote Originally Posted by randy_cat View Post
    Well, yeah they were sent by antigonos to one of his allies with the order to kill them in dangerous missions because together they formed a force that could not be defeated, they were also treacherous soldiers who sold themselves to the highest bidder. So they could not exist in EB2 timeframe, ok. As for the bronze shields, they could replace agema basilikon for pontos, with different textures i guess, but ok, they are similar units.
    The point was that Agema Basilikon is already in the game, hence no need for an additional bronze shield unit.


    Another unit that could be present: according to caesar himself, some of the germans fought in a tight shield wall similar to hoplite phalanx and the legionnaires had trouble breaking them. They also had a peculiar fighting formation in the form of a charging wedge, where the toughest men were placed in the front of the wedge, and behind all the rest... this proved very effective until caesar arrived with his superior strategy and soldiers and wiped them out. They also ( the germans ) had light foot troops that ran together with horsemen by grapping themselves to the horse's hair in order to run faster, throw javelins then retreating fast.
    Germanic "pikemen" are already in the game, they're just a late game unit. Otherwise, the Germanic roster already has a lot of javelin units, including skirmishers.


    Another one could be roman sagitarii auxilia, archers with tough training and superior armament.
    I wouldn't be surprised if a late game Roman auxiliary archer unit was already in the game; if not, it's either because they haven't gotten to it yet or because there's a good reason for omitting it.


    Quote Originally Posted by randy_cat View Post
    A few more units.

    Eastern macemen: since infantry was at a disadvantage against the fully armoured noblemen, it is likely that some foot troops wielded maces in order to beat down the armoured foes, as swords and spears were ineffective agains heavy armor. Even if i didn't find historical references, wood maces with metal heads have been found from that era.
    Lots of existing Iranian and other "Eastern" units have axes for melee, which count as armour-piercing in this mod. Have you checked the unit viewer whether there are macemen around? It's possible that an existing infantry unit has maces for secondary weapons.

  14. #14

    Default Re: New historically accurate units that could be added

    I think the only mace infantry are the Indian mace men, and some Cataphract horse troops. Maces are pretty rare for east factions, and a eastern mace unit would be pretty cool.

  15. #15

    Default Re: New historically accurate units that could be added

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Germanic "pikemen" are already in the game, they're just a late game unit. Otherwise, the Germanic roster already has a lot of javelin units, including skirmishers.
    I know sweboz can train a sort of weak pikemen in late game, i was talking about something different, a tight shieldwall-like unit that was difficult to break. Maybe they even had some sort of body armor and long spears i don't know, i know that the weapons of choice for the germans were the spear and the shortsword.

  16. #16

    Default Re: New historically accurate units that could be added

    Quote Originally Posted by moisesjns View Post
    I think the only mace infantry are the Indian mace men, and some Cataphract horse troops. Maces are pretty rare for east factions, and a eastern mace unit would be pretty cool.
    Lots of things would be cool (not just in your opinion but in mine as well), but the fact remains that this mod has a very high standard of proof when it comes to including military content, otherwise you'd see more tactically diverse rosters in several regions of the map instead of 501 flavours of spearmanii with javelins.


    Quote Originally Posted by randy_cat View Post
    I know sweboz can train a sort of weak pikemen in late game, i was talking about something different, a tight shieldwall-like unit that was difficult to break. Maybe they even had some sort of body armor and long spears i don't know, [...]
    See above; I assume you are using a primary source, probably Caesar's Gallic Wars, as a reference. The thing is that units that warrant inclusion into the mod have to be attested by more than a textual source (especially such a well-known one, which the team will already be familiar with, anyway). Like, what's the archaeological proof? Are there other, independent, texts or depictions that corroborate the existence of the unit? And if it existed, was it used over a relevant amount of time, or just a one-off experiment like the (IIRC) flaming pigs?


    i know that the weapons of choice for the germans were the spear and the shortsword.
    If by "shortsword" you mean the single-edged hewing sword, then yeah, sort of (also, don't forget javelins).

  17. #17

    Default Re: New historically accurate units that could be added

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    See above; I assume you are using a primary source, probably Caesar's Gallic Wars, as a reference. The thing is that units that warrant inclusion into the mod have to be attested by more than a textual source (especially such a well-known one, which the team will already be familiar with, anyway). Like, what's the archaeological proof? Are there other, independent, texts or depictions that corroborate the existence of the unit? And if it existed, was it used over a relevant amount of time, or just a one-off experiment like the (IIRC) flaming pigs?
    Damn i would have to read caesar's de bello gallico and plutarch all over to say something precise. I also read the life of alexander and hannibal. I remember for sure what caesar said more or less about the germans way of fighting: " they were large men, even taller than the gauls, and they saw battle as the only way to prove one's worth, cutting their hair only when they have slain their first foe and scarring themselves in ritual patterns. In battle they charged with furious roars and they were more ashamed of defeat than death "

    They didn't know a lot about metal working so their weapons were made almost entirely of wood. Among the barbarians tho, caesar said that some of them fought in a very disciplined way, overlapping shields and trying to crush the enemy in a wedge formation. These unit were probably the speudogordoz in EB1... i don't know why they are not present in EB2 since they were a cool addition to sweboz... They also had light cavalrymen who rode small but swift horses and threw javelins from afar, then retreating before the melee clash.
    Last edited by randy_cat; January 21, 2022 at 03:17 AM.

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