Begginer's question

[Solomasoko]

Hello,

I conquered an illyrian town (Delminium) as Epeiros and wanted to make it and allied democracy but to my surprise i can't : after establishing a tributary state only the oligarchy is present in the building menu. I didn't had this problem with other regions until now so i don't know what is causing it. The game doesn't specify anything on this subject in the descriptions, at first glance there's no building requirement and such for the democracy governement so don't know what to do, i really want that badass barbarian heavy infantry in my army

[Electricity]

I think it's because that settlement is a nomad camp and they can only get the oligarchic client state building for some reason.

[RodriguesSting]

If I remember correctly, Delminium is the Camp of the Dalmatians. Camps can only be turned into Oligarchies. As I don't think it can provide satisfactory numbers of cavalry on its own, consider instituting a Laarchia or whatever the Native factional government of Epeiros is, after the place is stable enough.

If you really want badass barbarian infantry in your Epeirote armies, consider going to the barbaric region of "Italy" and putting native governments there to tap into their plentiful savage warriors to bolster your forces.

[Satapatiš]

I'm not sure if I'd use a predominantly Illyrian settlement for a badass barbarian infantry. I'd rather look for Celtic settlements.

[RodriguesSting]

The only greek faction that can institute a factional native government in celtic lands is KH. Yeah, even Epeiros can't. Your westwards expansion is not meant to go much further than Italy.

[Satapatiš]

Supervised native governments and allied governments can get you enough combined recruitment from a few settlements.

I mean, not that there's a reason for doing so because Epeiros still gets much better Italian options. Trying to use Celts as infantry is actually downgrading for this faction.

[Solomasoko]

Thanks for all the responses

I also have a question regarding Laarchia. If i understood it correctly according to the in game descriptions Laarchia is the one and only form of governement that gives us an access to the "local military colonisation" building chain, right ? And besides that what advantages does it have over the allied state administration, do we get more economical buildings ?

@Satapatiš

Might sound corny but by "badass infantry" i actually meant only one unit (Kondamantes) they look cool and have decent stats but i don't even know if they are that tough.

[Satapatiš]

Kondamantes are Celtic. The easiest way of getting them as Epirus is to establish a client democracy in either Medilanon or Gorsissa. Or any other Celtic settlement that would be, otherwise, in the Boioi sphere of influence. You'll have to get Medilanon anyway to keep the Italian provinces secured.

[RodriguesSting]

Allied Governments have two main disadvantages. Not only they (usually, depends on fation) won't allow the highest level buildings, they also impose a penalty to the global settlement income by reducing farming production and having a malus on most Trade boosting buildings (effectively reducing their bonus, on the highest levels). Furthermore, these settlements will only accept Client Governors - anybody but them will cause unrest and have reduced government efficiency via a negative trait.

The native colony will do wonders to boost the local recruitment. I was getting absolutely ludicrous numbers in Italy. Laarchia (and other Hellenistic native governments) are a bonus, it is not just because you can shove a Hellenistic colony everywhere that you *should*. Hellenistic recruitment is, at best, mediocre, even at the highest levels of colony and poleis - large variety of troops, but small pools, and low replenishment. Laarchia + Native Colony will not only solve this, but will get around some of your factional weaknesses (like hard trouble getting good cavalry *in good numbers*).

[Satapatiš]

You have to weight when the allied governments end more profitable on the level of the entire player-controlled kingdom and when they're not. Epeiros and Makedon can't use other forms of government in Greek cities without suffering serious public order penalties. Eventually what you can get from trade improvements ends eaten by the garrisons needed for keeping the Greek population obedient or by having to throw costly festivals to keep the people placated. On the other hand, if you give them allied democracies then you can at least crank the taxes up a bit, they'll shut up and pay.

I had to pacify Sparta two times before finally razing the goddamn place for the last time but this giving them allied democracy. At least now the city of Pyrrhia gives me more income.

[RodriguesSting]

That, of course, is an issue caused more or less exclusively by the unique building League city states have. One eats away Happiness, the other eats away Law, and most of the League cities have both. That said, I didn't have much trouble keeping the cities in Hellas in order. My real problem, even with KH, was Syracuse. Eventually the place becomes unsustainable without an allied government. Luckily, with a successor state, you can set up colonies there and then switch to allied, keeping some nice bonuses.

[Hellenikon]

An allied government wouldn't allow foreign military settlers, so the whole strategy of building something then switching government once it's done is ahistorical and a game exploit. I think the dev team should look into giving these buildings heavy penalties to law and unrest when under a different government that the intended one. Or empty all recruitment pools so they become useless unless it is under the government that fits the criteria for building it.

[Satapatiš]

All Greek settlements with the Autonomy and the Stasis features eventually reach the point of not being sustainable without the allied governments at the higher population levels... Given how higher tiers of mining and industry also give public order penalties.

But that's ok, I don't care if the ethnic Greeks are the people hating the enlightened Panhellenism the most. I only need them to shut up and to pay. Naturalized Sabellian and Thracian Hellenes are more loyal and better at building Hellenism anyway.

[RodriguesSting]

An allied government wouldn't allow foreign military settlers, so the whole strategy of building something then switching government once it's done is ahistorical and a game exploit.

Case point, Indogreek Guilds that I can't build anywhere in India because of the lack of Eastern Imperial culture. That I can only get up to accept levels with Native Colonies.

So, as things are right now, do what you gotta do.

[Satapatiš]

Pity no one explained it to Mardonius that he wasn't supposed to switch between allied oligarchies and allied democracies after the Ionian Revolt. That was far too game-y.
Perhaps Romans should't be doing government switches as well.
And those cheaty Parthians going forth and back on philohellenism...

[Hellenikon]

I don't know what you're going on about, this isn't about government switchment. What is an exploit is making use of recruitment buildings that have prerequisites that you no longer fulfill, because you destroyed those annoying suboptimal buildings that were on the way. If you have no issues with gaming the system like that and even make up an explanation for it, then good for you.

[BailianSteel]

I'm not sure if I'd use a predominantly Illyrian settlement for a badass barbarian infantry. I'd rather look for Celtic settlements.

Bah, I say the glint of Margianian steel blinds you. If we're talking about the baddest of the bad, then head towards the lands of the Thraikians and Dacians. I've never been impressed by the line infantry of "barbarian nations" outside of the Iberians, but their elite often stands out. Rompaianai stand at the very top of the food chain, if you can get them to melee in good health and keep them safe from cavalry charges, then I can't think of a single unit that can best them. The Basternai Draugai used to be as powerful, but were nerfed. They are still quite deadly and have a place of honor in my Boioi host. The Markaridai make a decent bridge in between the excellent Eporeda Donnoi and the unimpressive Epatoi Londoi.

Thanks for all the responses

I also have a question regarding Laarchia. If i understood it correctly according to the in game descriptions Laarchia is the one and only form of governement that gives us an access to the "local military colonisation" building chain, right ? And besides that what advantages does it have over the allied state administration, do we get more economical buildings ?

@Satapatiš

Might sound corny but by "badass infantry" i actually meant only one unit (Kondamantes) they look cool and have decent stats but i don't even know if they are that tough.

It sounds like you're playing 3.5 if you're calling the Boioi Retainers Kondamantes. As of 3.5, they have been buffed to the higher tiers of infantry strength (my go to metric for this is whether they can best a unit of Hoplitai 1v1, and I know that's not how war works...but in a worst case scenario that's what it can come down to.) To put it this way, a unit of Kingetos Uisuparanon, Uextias, or Galathraikes stands no chance against the Cohort-Legions (Marian-reform Romani) in a siege battle. A unit of Kondamantes can hold them at bay, though by the time the Cohort-Legions roll around the Kondamantes benefit from having their armor upgraded twice.

The Pannonian plain to the north of Delminium (Segestika, Singidunon, and Gorsissa) offers a decent amount of Kondamantes. If you really want to go balls-to-the wall with Kondamantes though, play Boioi and install Colonies. If you invest in Felsina/Bononia, then you get a pool of 3 Kondamantes right off the bat. After a decade's worth of investment (and be sure to put a Uatis/Druits as governor,) you can fight the Romani with Kondamantes comprising a good chunk of your infantry.


That having been said, I've always found Arkoi more cost-efficient. Despite the smaller size of the unit, they're tough enough to fully compensate; they are cheaper to begin with in terms of recruitment and upkeep; and if you're using Allied Governments then you won't have to sacrifice the possibility of mustering the Eporeda Donnoi, which is without a doubt the jewel of the Keltoi roster.


I believe the Strategia (2-turn/1200 mnai Military Administration) grants you access to the lowest rung of the Local Colony, but it's not something I bother with often outside of role playing purposes. Laarchia grants you a combination of good local unit recruitment, happiness bonuses to the subjugated population, and the capacity for direct governance. The advantage isn't in the economy (a decent client governor can make up for lost income), it's in allowing you to train up an FM in the art of governance, being cheaper and faster to install than Allied Governments, and allowing you to further expand your pool through Local Colonies. The highest tier of Local Colony often grants access to an elite unit, and in rare cases even simple colonies can do the same. A simple colony in Tolosa and/or Iliberri can grant you 2 units of the elite Salduria...I'm pretty sure that's unintended.

[Satapatiš]

I don't know what you're going on about, this isn't about government switchment. What is an exploit is making use of recruitment buildings that have prerequisites that you no longer fulfill, because you destroyed those annoying suboptimal buildings that were on the way. If you have no issues with gaming the system like that and even make up an explanation for it, then good for you.

Kindly consider stepping down off this high horse. It's a game, not an exact simulation.


Even if, military colonies represent grants of land to the people moving there along with their families. This population isn't going to magically disappear because somewhere in the capital someone decided that locals will calm down because they were given a thinly veiled imitation of independence. Foreign military colonies already create unhapiness, clash with poleis and reduce farming.

[RodriguesSting]

Well, that said, further maluses could be implemented for having colonies with allied governments, easily moddable, as other buildings that have detrimental effects with it. As a game, and not exactly a trivial one, we will always end up min-maxing and power gaming to get the most advantage possible out of any situation. And I don't think it is unhealthy for the development of the game. If the devs decide to patch something they feel like a exploit up, the search for the next advantage starts once again. This is a way to stay invested.

[Satapatiš]

Well, that said, further maluses could be implemented for having colonies with allied governments, easily moddable, as other buildings that have detrimental effects with it. As a game, and not exactly a trivial one, we will always end up min-maxing and power gaming to get the most advantage possible out of any situation. And I don't think it is unhealthy for the development of the game. If the devs decide to patch something they feel like a exploit up, the search for the next advantage starts once again. This is a way to stay invested.

They could be causing an additional unrest if they're present in a settlement with an allied government for the same reason Family Members are causing it.

It's taking the land from locals and distributing it to your foreign cronies thus effectively reminding the populace that they're not really independent.