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Thread: Causes of Hitler and Nazi Germany; Its Relevance Today

  1. #1
    Miles
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    Default Causes of Hitler and Nazi Germany; Its Relevance Today

    Hello,

    There is little historical inquiry that has attracted so much debate as the direct causes of Hitler and the Nazi Party’s rise to power. Much scholarship has been written on the subject and far too much to master in one’s own lifetime. I was struck recently by Peter Watson’s contention in his book The German Genius that German cultural and intellectual achievement leading up to Nazi Germany far excelled its British and American counterparts. Five marks of modern German culture are given that give credence both to German excellence and its devastating fall:


    1. An Educated Middle Class
    2. “Inwardness” (Innerlichkeit)
    3. Bildung
    4. Research, the PhD, Scholarship and Modernity
    5. The Longing for a Redemptive Community


    Watson centers in on the concept of an educated, secular middle class:

    Quote Originally Posted by Page 840
    But the overwhelming reality is that, in the face of the advances being made by science, especially in the forty to fifty years before World War I, the educated middle classes in Germany, the traditionally educated middle classes, the “Bildung classes” as we can call them, suffered two crucial setbacks, setbacks that were exacerbated in the 1920s in the Weimar Republic. First, they lost status and influence, finding their traditional intellectual interests downgraded and marginalized in the newer, mass urban spaces, and then, in the great inflation, they found their economic interests decimated. Second, in Germany in particular, the traditionally educated Bildung class found itself estranged from- and replaced by- the scientifically educated middle classes. This was of crucial importance because, when it came to the crunch, when the Naxis began to flex their muscles, there simply was not in Germany a critical mass of educated people in positions of power and responsibility to provide any resistance.


    The failure of the educated middle class, Watson argues, is the crucial failure in leading to Hitler’s Germany.

    Although the above concepts do not appear in Richard Evans’ monumental The Third Reich trilogy, his exhaustive survey of the existing literature points to multiple theses. Early on, German historian Friedrick Meinecke “blamed the rise of the Third Reich above all on Germany’s growing obsession with world power from the late nineteenth century onward, beginning with Bismarck and getting more intense in the age of Kaiser Wilhelm II and the First World War.” (The Coming of the Third Reich, xxi). Others, like William Shirer and A.J.P. Taylor, say the democratic and human rights spirit never became an active force in German life, somewhat related to Thomas Mann’s belief of minimal interest in politics among Germans. Then of course, there is the upheaval of law and order brought about by defeat in the First World War and the subsequent Weimar hyperinflation. All of these causes have been proposed, with debates surrounding their level of relevance.

    What factors played the greatest role in the takeover of Hitler and the Nazis in Germany? And how can we relate to it in the twenty-first century?


  2. #2

    Default Re: Causes of Hitler and Nazi Germany; Its Relevance Today

    This was of crucial importance because, when it came to the crunch, when the Naxis began to flex their muscles, there simply was not in Germany a critical mass of educated people in positions of power and responsibility to provide any resistance.
    Provide persistence against what exactly? Acceptance of Anglo-French colonial imperialism and domination of the oil fields? Suppression of Jewish-led Bolshevik uprisings and not sharing the fate of Baltic Germans? Subservience to international finance?


    Also how were the "traditionally educated middle classes" different from the "scientifically educated middle classes"? Who were the former and who were the latter? Members of educated upper echelon of society did provide opposition to Nazism, as the examples of Ernst von Salomon or Ernst Jünger show, but these were the faces of an elitist conservatism and despised Nazis on grounds of their populism above anything else.
    "Blessed is he who learns how to engage in inquiry, with no impulse to hurt his countrymen or to pursue wrongful actions, but perceives the order of the immortal and ageless nature, how it is structured."
    Euripides

    "This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which drives to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which avails us nothing and which man should not wish to learn."
    Augustine

  3. #3

    Default Re: Causes of Hitler and Nazi Germany; Its Relevance Today

    The lesson of the rise of Hitler and the Nazis is that politicians need to address the frustrations and anger the mass od people are feeling, even if you don't see their frustration and anger being justified. Ignoring those frustrations leaves the door open to demagogues to exploit those feelings.


    Trump won, for example, not because of Russia but because politicians of both US political parties ignored the frustrations and concerns many Americans had, and Trump least acknowledge those concerns, which is a lot more than you can say for Hillary, which is why she lost. Rust Belt states like Illinois and Michigan, which have seen large number of good paying manufacturing jobs leave the state, voted for Trump when last time states like Michigan voted for Obama. Yet Hillary and the Democrats are clueless why lost instead blaming Russia because.they lack the courage to admit the problem laid within themselves.

    If you won't control the violence in the cities, you may wake up one day to find someone in charge who will deal with the problems and you might not like their solutionm



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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Causes of Hitler and Nazi Germany; Its Relevance Today

    Trump least acknowledge those concerns
    Rather you mean both candidates acknowledged the problem but only one side promised magic pony power to fix the issue. Which you are right flipped just enough votes to win the EC. But did nothing to fix the problem and than in fact implemented policies to basically walk us into the new second gilded age.
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    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: Causes of Hitler and Nazi Germany; Its Relevance Today

    The rise of the Nazi Party was ver specific to certain demographics. It won mostly with the protestants, who at that time had the majority of the population, and it won there in specific demographics as well.
    E.g. My hometown and surrounding areas were for historical reasons either entirely Catholic, or entirely Protestant. In the last elections that were held, the NSDAP won more than 90% of the votes in the protestant areas, and less than 10% in the Catholic areas. It gets more specific than that in terms of demographics.

    The financial crisis of the thirties had harsh consequences for the people, forcing them to the fringes. The NSDAP capitalised on that, by also having a social message. By having a broad list of demands, they managed to unite many behind them.

    Anyway, what I'm saying, is that this is way more complicated than usually portrayed. To say that the Nazis won because of the uneducated, as claimed by the quote in the OP, is a stretch, if not entirely wrong. The Nazis constantly referred to such figures as Richard Wagner and Friedrich Nietzsche.
    The former was already dead, the latter unhappy about being dragged into this, but he couldn't stop them from reframing and abusing his claims to their liking. Wagners music and Nietzsches books weren't for the uneducated masses.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Causes of Hitler and Nazi Germany; Its Relevance Today

    In the election which gave the Nazis their foothold in government isn’t the true the majority of their voters were not the intelligentsia. Similar to Trump in the US. The majority of his mostly white supporters are the lower class and/or less educated ones while the vast majority of Highly educated Americans do not support him.

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    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: Causes of Hitler and Nazi Germany; Its Relevance Today

    The aristocracy disliked Hitler, but for entirely different reasons than the social democrats and other parties did.

    Trump won because Hillary and the DNC screwed up repeatedly, because she wasn't offering an alternative, and most importantly, because she neglected the swing states.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Causes of Hitler and Nazi Germany; Its Relevance Today

    Its silly to equate Trump with Hitler. There's not much relevance in Hitler's rise to power in the 1930's to today's world.

    Trump is a reality TV star fronting and entrenched party. He's politically clueless but toes the line of his allies in Congress who can remove him. he has very little real popularity, and took power legally through the Byzantine mess of US politics that keeps two party stasis in perpetual motion. Trump satisfies a small stupid sector of the electorate (and enrages a slightly larger equally stupid sector) by reality TV blather and keeps the power players that got him elected (above all the evangelicals) by rigidly obeying their orders. There's no existential threat to the US so he appeals to lazy stereotypes only morons would find frightening, and shows himself incredibly unfit for international diplomacy by getting rolled (at least in appearances) by Saudis, Russians and north Koreans every time he sets foot outside the US.

    Trumps not intrinsically evil (or no more evil than most in Washington), he's an actor who took a job like Reagan. he may do evil things but Presidents in the US don;t get in the door if they don't satisfy a s small electorate of billionaires whose ethics are not the same as the rest of us. Clinton was better friends with Epstein than Trump was, either he raped kids too or (more likely) had to do business with child rapists. As nice as Obama is as a person, he didn't get Epstein and did do plenty of rotten things.

    Hitler led a violent illegal takeover of German politics at the head of his own party that owed him fanatical loyalty. He was able to destabilise politics to the extent he broke the system and had to be given the Chancellorship, however the genuine (possibly existential) threat of Communism also played into his hands here. He was a brilliant mesmerising speaker that bluffed more than one foreign leader on more than one occasion. He was also so evil he was beyond belief, he even fooled Stalin at one stage (the rotten bastard couldn't believe Hitler would actually pull the Barbarossa suicide play).

    Of course Hitler was to an extent a prisoner of circumstances: I think WWII was almost inevitable given the messy end to WWI but Hitler took positive steps to make it as bad as possible. Genocide, declarations of war left right and centre, slave labour and monumentally evil war goals, he almost screwed Germany as bad as the Thirty Years War in five years. He is only exceeded by Mao and Stalin for his bodycount and they had decades longer in power.

    Trump is a symptom like a rash: if you have a problem with him its really a problem with the US system because he's done most things legally and he's even been treated unfairly by his political opponents and a lot of the press. I dislike him because he seems unfit for office and I like stable well led allies thanks, but on paper he was a better candidate than Clinton.

    Hitler was true evil. Its an insult to your own intelligence to mention them in the same breath.
    Last edited by Cyclops; August 12, 2020 at 05:11 AM.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  9. #9

    Default Re: Causes of Hitler and Nazi Germany; Its Relevance Today

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Its silly to equate Trump with Hitler. There's not much relevance in Hitler's rise to power in the 1930's to today's world.

    Trump is a reality TV star fronting and entrenched party. He's politically clueless but toes the line of his allies in Congress who can remove him. he has very little real popularity, and took power legally through the Byzantine mess of US politics that keeps two party stasis in perpetual motion. Trump satisfies a small stupid sector of the electorate (and enrages a slightly larger equally stupid sector) by reality TV blather and keeps the power players that got him elected (above all the evangelicals) by rigidly obeying their orders. There's no existential threat to the US so he appeals to lazy stereotypes only morons would find frightening, and shows himself incredibly unfit for international diplomacy by getting rolled (at least in appearances) by Saudis, Russians and north Koreans every time he sets foot outside the US.

    Trumps not intrinsically evil (or no more evil than most in Washington), he's an actor who took a job like Reagan. he may do evil things but Presidents in the US don;t get in the door if they don't satisfy a s small electorate of billionaires whose ethics are not the same as the rest of us. Clinton was better friends with Epstein than Trump was, either he raped kids too or (more likely) had to do business with child rapists. As nice as Obama is as a person, he didn't get Epstein and did do plenty of rotten things.

    Hitler led a violent illegal takeover of German politics at the head of his own party that owed him fanatical loyalty. He was able to destabilise politics to the extent he broke the system and had to be given the Chancellorship, however the genuine (possibly existential) threat of Communism also played into his hands here. He was a brilliant mesmerising speaker that bluffed more than one foreign leader on more than one occasion. He was also so evil he was beyond belief, he even fooled Stalin at one stage (the rotten bastard couldn't believe Hitler would actually pull the Barbarossa suicide play).

    Of course Hitler was to an extent a prisoner of circumstances: I think WWII was almost inevitable given the messy end to WWI but Hitler took positive steps to make it as bad as possible. Genocide, declarations of war left right and centre, slave labour and monumentally evil war goals, he almost screwed Germany as bad as the Thirty Years War in five years. He is only exceeded by Mao and Stalin for his bodycount and they had decades longer in power.

    Trump is a symptom like a rash: if you have a problem with him its really a problem with the US system because he's done most things legally and he's even been treated unfairly by his political opponents and a lot of the press. I dislike him because he seems unfit for office and I like stable well led allies thanks, but on paper he was a better candidate than Clinton.

    Hitler was true evil. Its an insult to your own intelligence to mention them in the same breath.
    I agree with what you say. Trump is not evil, he is not like Hitler, Trump is not truly evil like Hitler.

    My only point in bringing up Trump in the discussion is that he, like Hitler, was a symptom, a by product of failure of others to address the issues. Hitler in many ways was also a symptom as well, just a much, much worse rash, more like melanoma. The point is that the progressives who despise Trump so much are the very people who helped get him elected. It is not that these progressives are not addressing the concerns of the millions of Americans who elected Trump, the progressives refuse to acknowledge the concerns in the first place. I don't like Trump, I think he is a school bully, but he was better than Hillary, and given a choice, I still vote for him over her. What is really sad and bad is that the left in this lastcountry still really don't understand why Trump won. I read Hillary's book, and she is clueless why she really lost - the answer to the book's title "What Happened" is, as my friends joke, Hillary's picture on the front cover.


    The BLM protests are another manifeststion of the same factor. The BLM have bee hijacked by others to promote their own agenda, but there are legitimate real concerns that were driving these protesters. But just like Hitler hijacked some of the legitimate concerns the Germans had, Antifa groups have exploited the legitimate concerns of the BLM to promote their own agenda.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; September 22, 2020 at 04:39 PM. Reason: correct typo

  10. #10

    Default Re: Causes of Hitler and Nazi Germany; Its Relevance Today

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    The aristocracy disliked Hitler, but for entirely different reasons than the social democrats and other parties did.

    Trump won because Hillary and the DNC screwed up repeatedly, because she wasn't offering an alternative, and most importantly, because she neglected the swing states.
    And a host of other reasons. My statement of fact wasn't why Trump won. It was the highly educated did not cast their votes for him (fact) and I thought it was the same for the Nazis in the election that gave Hitler his foothold in government.

  11. #11
    Miles
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    Default Re: Causes of Hitler and Nazi Germany; Its Relevance Today

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Anyway, what I'm saying, is that this is way more complicated than usually portrayed. To say that the Nazis won because of the uneducated, as claimed by the quote in the OP, is a stretch, if not entirely wrong. The Nazis constantly referred to such figures as Richard Wagner and Friedrich Nietzsche.
    The former was already dead, the latter unhappy about being dragged into this, but he couldn't stop them from reframing and abusing his claims to their liking. Wagners music and Nietzsches books weren't for the uneducated masses.
    Could you expand on this idea (that the Nazis were not the party of the uneducated)? Or at least back up with quotes/data from reputable sources.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Causes of Hitler and Nazi Germany; Its Relevance Today

    The idea that the NSdAP was the party of the uneducated is a convenient narrative peddled by modern day Germany's upper classes, in order to justify their racist hatred against the native lower class and various non-democratic measures that are in place, such as the ludicrously overpriced "public" broadcasting services that are somehow impossible to get rid of by legal means.
    I'm sure if you look up who voted for what, you'll find that Hitler had voters and supporters from all backgrounds, including plenty of academics. That's always been my impression anyway, when looking at the time period and its primary sources.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duptar View Post
    Could you expand on this idea (that the Nazis were not the party of the uneducated)? Or at least back up with quotes/data from reputable sources.
    You're asking him to prove a negative.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Causes of Hitler and Nazi Germany; Its Relevance Today

    Quote Originally Posted by Duptar View Post
    Could you expand on this idea (that the Nazis were not the party of the uneducated)? Or at least back up with quotes/data from reputable sources.
    Research of party membership has shown that the plurality were middle class, both lower and upper. Working class people accounted for slightly less, but still constituted a large chunk of the party. All in all, Nazi party membership was fairly representative of German society as a whole, though slightly skewed towards the more prosperous end. Class, gender, education don't seem to have been a factor. Interestingly, religion was: Catholics were extremely underrepresented in the party, despite Hitler being raised an Austrian Catholic and jump-starting his political career in Bavaria.

    Here's a fairly recent study on the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric
    The idea that the NSdAP was the party of the uneducated is a convenient narrative
    Pretty much, and a very modern one to boot. The historiographical view on the Nazi party for many decades was that it was a very (upper) middle class movement, a position that's been nuanced over the last years because of studies like the one above, which've found that the proletariat was hardly that underrepresented among the ranks of the Brownshirts.

    Trying to ascribe the rise of the Nazis to something akin to a minor Dark Age in culture is rather silly, and frankly a bit delusional and arrogant. It reeks of the old dismissal of the rise of Hitler as an aberration caused by a societal spell of madness, or by a quirk of those backwards and desperate Germans; something that would never happen in a rational, civil society like [insert your own here]! It's a lot easier than having to confront and explain the rather uncomfortable fact that a nation of rational actors purposefully chose to elect such a figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
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    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

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  14. #14
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Causes of Hitler and Nazi Germany; Its Relevance Today

    @Dr. Croccer: Thanks for the informed insight. It confirms a lot of the suspicions i have.

    Given that there was an elevated level of racism and nationalism as an omnipresent 'affliction' during the time, how would you estimate Germany in comparison?

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