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Thread: Ancient China, EBII Style

  1. #1

    Default Ancient China, EBII Style

    So this time I feel like doing something different. This is just my little write up on what a Chinese faction in EBII would look like. This is all purely for fun, I have no expectations for the addition of East Asia into the mod. Not all of what I'm going to write down here will be of a high standard of historical accuracy, hopefully over time I can improve it on a historical and fun basis.


    The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide. In the year 272 BCE, the very first of the cycles nears it's end. While the Makedones have begun to settle and draw their borders, the Romani are still preparing to make their mark in the greater Mediterranean world, and India would soon see the rule of Maharaja Ahsoka; another land is consumed by the flames of war. Ancient China nears the end of the Warring States period, the culmination of a long process of decay of the hallowed house of Zhou and the rise of new authorities based on centralized bureaucracy. And this particular point in time is an interesting one indeed, for it is in this epoch that the notorious generals Bai Qi, Lian Po, Wang Jian, and Li Mu fought massive battles that determined the fate of millions. While Wang Jian and Li Mu had yet to rise to notoriety, Bai Qi had already massacred myriads of men at the Battle of Yique; more recently he had seized the capital of the State of Chu, and in this year he is about to massacre another army at Huayang. His most notorious act, the mass murder of an entire generation of the State of Zhao, also has yet to come. That's not to say the rest of China has been peaceful. A few decades earlier, the last vestige of the ancient Shang, the State of Song, was extinguished by the State of Qi. Flushed with victory, Qi planned to divide China between itself and Qin as Di of the East and West. In turn they were nearly extinguished by the State of Yan and Yue Yi, being reduced to only two cities. They barely avoided extinction thanks to the ingenuity of Tian Dan. The State of Lu, which wrote much of the history of the preceding Spring and Autumn period (as a matter of fact, the name Spring and Autumn comes from Lu's Spring and Autumn Annals,) was also destroyed by the State of Chu.



    Faction Fundamentals








    China is split into seven Warring States, with several lesser states managing to cling on, including the increasingly defunct Zhou Dynasty. By this time nearly all pretense of adhering to the order of the house of Zhou is gone. The former Dukes who ruled the regional states have all declared themselves Kings, and constantly seek to expand their dominion at the expense of other States. To this end they have all developed centralized bureaucracies, meritocratic ranking systems, the infamous Long Walls (of which the Great Wall of China is the most famous,) and advanced military science. The first two will be a large part of what distinguishes a Chinese playthrough on the Campaign Map. At this time Chinese citizens were sorted according to a system of ranks in ascending order.1 Climbing this system of ranks required feats in battle such as the slaying of enemies (proven by presenting decapitated heads,) and victory in the battlefield; or achievements in the civil field such as averting serious losses through diplomacy. Higher ranks conferred a number of benefits such as social prestige and a larger income stream, and the ability to trade in your rank to avoid punishment, as such Chinese character holding high ranks are likelier to be Wealthy. There was also a split between civil and military principles, with notable figures serving as military generals or scholars and ministers. While there was some degree of overlap, it seems like most Chinese characters choose to excel in one aspect or the other.


    Thus a Chinese faction would likely possess a system similar to the Druit/Kingetos system used by the Keltoi, encouraging Chinese characters to invest in a martial career, or an administrative one. This will be represented in a ChineseMilitary trait spelling out their military position and responsibilities, and a ChineseCivil trait that does the same for their civil career. Though they can increase their rank by progressing along both paths, increase in rank only corresponds to their highest position in one field. So a Chinese character who spent his entire career fighting battles now wishes to increase his rank through the civil path will now have to start from scratch and build up to an equivalent rank.


    Chinese Faction Leaders stand above this system, they have no need to personally administrate or command armies. Though they may have practical experience before their ascension, especially if the main branch is extinguished and the State is forced to look into the branch families for a ruler. Any rank or Civil/Military traits should be removed once crowned. Due to their ritual and administrative responsibilities, Chinese Faction Leaders rarely lead armies in the field, and doing so will likely attract discontent for the risk to the ruler's person.


    The Chinese also employ a system of colonization. We know that Qin historically migrated volunteers and convicts to both non-Chinese lands, and the lands of the rival states for the purpose of easing supply chains and providing military recruitment. They went so far as to remodel the settlement pattern and agricultural landscape of their core region of Guanzhong2. The Han Dynasty would also plant settlers into their various peripheral regions and the Tarim Basin. One peculiarity of Chinese colonization is that it also had a tendency to move peripheral populations into it's interior on a large scale. Certainly other nations practiced using foreign peoples as garrisons and political guards and hostages; but Qin and Han moved thousands of households, if not more, into the metropolitan region of Guanzhong.


    Reforms





    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    A New Age is Inaugurated

    Every one of the six states have been exterminated, their lands reformed into commanderies under your majesty's command. You have personally toured your new domain and inscribed your will on the mountains. The unification of All Under Heaven, and the standardization of it's measures and laws are complete. A new era has dawned, the old title of Wang no longer suits he who rules All Under Heaven. Behold he who surpasses the Five Emperors, Shi Huang Di!

    This represents the historical transition from the Warring States to the Qin Dynasty. This is the bulk of the player's work in the early game, and is necessary for the creation of a unified Chinese empire. It's not just conquest, but laying the administrative, legal, and economic framework necessary for such a monumental transition.


    Requirements:


    • Absolute destruction of rival Chinese factions
    • Establishing direct bureaucratic control over their core territories (building Commandery or County level governments)
    • Faction Leader must visit and spend a season in each former capital region to proclaim their rule to the regional elite
    • You must migrate the elite population of the former capitals to your own capital region


    Results:


    • Faction Leader title is changed from "Wang" () to "Huang Di" (皇帝)
    • Trade bonuses in Capital region from migration of elite population
    • Faction Leader can now undertake tours of the empire from the Capital for Authority and Public Order bonuses
    • Trade bonuses across all Chinese territories from standardization of laws and language
    • Construction of Mausoleum Towns enabled
    • Don't think it's smooth sailing from now! There will be mass civil disruption from sweeping changes and lingering resistance



    The New Son of Heaven


    Historically the Qin Dynasty fell apart thanks to court infighting, mass unrest, and the Qin administration's unwillingness to cease it's relentless mobilizations. However, I don't believe Medieval II allows your faction to simulate an internal rebellion like Empire: Total War and it's Revolution mechanic. Thus I will have to assume that any route to establishing a Chinese Empire involves the successful survival of the conquering Dynasty. That having been said, it isn't outside of the realm of possibility that the Qin Dynasty would shift into something akin to the Han Dynasty's style of administration, as the Han Dynasty borrowed many things such as the law code or literal palace foundations from Qin, and had undergone several ideological shifts over the course of it's history.


    Requirements:


    • Survive loyalist rebellions and wave of unrest, including historical rebels like Xiang Yu and Liu Bang
    • Prevent a single school of thought from gaining a supermajority (75%)


    Results:


    • Can now build Kingdoms instead of Commanderies in the most valuable (most populous, wealthy, academic, etc.) regions
    • Unrest caused by the New Age reform fades away



    Those Who Ride Horses

    Through extensive preparation and warfare with the Hu, All Under Heaven has realized that chariot forces cannot meet the demands of warfare in the vast barbarian lands. Thus, under the Son of Heaven's sage guidance, we have procured numerous horses and horsemen from the Hu and turned them to our own use. Now even if bandits seek refuge in mountain heights and wide rivers, they cannot escape the reach of our swift soldiers.


    Requirements:


    • Possess several Long Walls in Pastoral Regions outside the initial sphere of Chinese influence (existing Long Walls and currently subjugated Pastoral Regions count)
    • Fight several large battles against armies with 10+ Cavalry Units


    Results:


    • Chariot pool vastly reduced, though not removed. Chariots still saw use as mobile fortifications and artillery platforms
    • Existing pool of light cavalry vastly increased (This is not simply repurposing Chariot horses to a new arm, the historical reforms dedicated vast resources to the construction of new stables and massive expansion of horse herds available to the Son of Heaven.)



    Acquisition of the Heavenly Horse

    Our brave soldiers have punished the barbarians of the furthest Western Regions. We have truly proven that our might is beyond the comprehension of the Hu, or even those barbarians that are closer to our palette. Now even the formerly insolent Western Regions understand the awe inspiring might of Your Majesty, and eagerly offer themselves to the common good of All Under Heaven.

    Requirements:


    • Conquer a region of Central Asia (Alexandria Eschate, Baktria, Kangha, Nisaya, etc.)


    Results:


    • Trade bonuses thanks to the acquisition and trade of Heavenly Horses
    • Heavy cavalry pool increased



    An August Age

    Last reform, I promise. While the image of a centralized Han Dynasty is mostly associated with Han Wudi, recent scholarship has demonstrated that even after his reign the Han Dynasty underwent further reforms to increase centralization. By the reign of Han Chengdi, the Chinese emperor no longer needed to travel across the empire to maintain order, all the necessary rituals could be performed within the Guanzhong region. The capital itself also reached it's height in development, poems were written praising the grandeur and wealth held within even after it lost it's status as the main residence of the Han emperors. This period in time also had historical significance in that several pivotal works both during and before the Han Dynasty were archived and proliferated by the court.3

    Requirements:


    • At least a hundred years must pass from The New Son of Heaven reform, if it isn't possible to count turns from a reform then it must be anchored to the specific point in time where the Han Dynasty reached this state, around 57 BCE
    • Faction Leader must be Sharp/Charismatic/Vigorous


    Results:


    • Faction Leader's tours take less time and have less reduction to private security (Qin Shi Huangdi was nearly assassinated on one such tour,) instead of touring across the empire they can now perform the necessary ritual from the safety of the capital region
    • The proliferation of several ancient and recent works (likely as ancillaries,) historically this period saw the Shiji rise to popularity and the archiving of ancient books found in Han Dynasty tombs
    • Further trade bonuses to the capital region representing the ludicrous urbanization from hundreds of years of transplanting wealthy and influential provincials into Mausoleum Towns





    Military





    As a result of hundreds of years of ever-escalating warfare, China has developed numerous military innovations and militarization has seeped deeply into the fabric of Warring States society. Shang Yang famously reorganized the State of Qin along militarized lines, believing that States who failed to tend to Agriculture and War "will certainly be dismembered." The military forces themselves were organized from squads of five to army units of 10,000. In previous centuries the States had only recruited from their capital regions and from the well off. By 272 BCE, the Chinese bureaucracies had utilized the entirety of their resources and population, and now soldiers from the entire state can be called to fight. While conscripts made up the bulk of Warring States armies by far, they also made use of penal soldiers and volunteer soldiers. The State of Wei in particular made use of enlisted soldiers that could march forty kilometers in full armor, a crossbow with fifty bolts, and three days worth of rations.


    The Chinese employed a wide variety of weapons. Aside from the expected shields, spears, swords, and bows; they had a unique fondness for the crossbow and halberd. As a matter of fact, you could say they were the quintessential Chinese weapons of the era. In the Six Secret Teachings of Taigong, one formula for an army of 10,000 had 6000 men wield crossbows, and supposedly the Han Dynasty's Donghai arsenal held 500,000+ crossbows. The influence of the crossbow went beyond bulk and numbers, Sun Wu (famously known as Sun Tzu) compared strategic power to a drawn crossbow and the use of crossbows were often used to distinguish Chinese arms from barbarian forces. A variety of tactics were developed with the crossbow, from laying ambushes with crossbow units to developing a method of fire and advance. That's not to say bows are irrelevant, they held practical military and ritual significance in China. Bows have a mythological origin in being invented by the Yellow Emperor, and were used as ritual gifts and symbols of office by the Zhou kings. Chinese cavalry around this time were also horse archers using bows, as it isn't possible to reload a military-grade crossbow on horseback (though there are depictions and literary evidence of crossbowmen firing while mounted on horses, they just can't reload them on horseback.) With the prevalence of bows and crossbows, Chinese factions should be one of the most firepower-centric factions in the game, with only the Nomadic factions and Sabai being able to compete.





    On the other hand, the Chinese seemed to be rather single minded when it came to their armor. By far the most popular type of armor is lamellar, though
    one-piece arm guards and helmets have been found. Despite the fact that bronze and iron armor dating to this period has been found, and numerous bronze artifacts demonstrate significant skill with metalworking, the few references to the production of armor near this period refer to cutting leather. The lamellar suits worn by the Terracotta Army also seem to be modeled after leather. It is safe to assume that leather was the primary material for armor in this period. These suits have different levels of coverage, with suits of armor that do not cover the back, the most iconic terracotta suit that covers the shoulders and entire torso, and suits for charioteers that have the most extensive coverage including cheires and hand guards.


    By the beginning of EBII's time frame, chariots were one of the primary Chinese weapon systems. The strength of a state in this period was traditionally judged by the number of chariots it possessed, and according to Chao Cuo the Han Dynasty needed to swap out their chariots for cavalry when faced with fighting the Xiongnu. However, cavalry was known around our time frame. King Wuling of Zhao famously adopted Hu clothing to better suit cavalry operations4; Zhang Yi refers to both a chariot arm, and a cavalry arm when describing the Qin army5; Li Mu also mobilized both chariots and cavalry to fight the Xiongnu6. Our knowledge of the use of chariots is vague, with Chinese military texts claiming that a few chariots can defeat many infantrymen, but advises them to avoid treacherous terrain. Given that a chariot crew of three has both a bowman and halberdier mounted alongside the driver, it might be that chariots are multi-purpose. As recorded in the Donghai Military Inventory and the Six Secret Teachings of Taigong, there are also different types of chariots. They also have unique functions historically, such as dragging up a dust cloud at the Battle of Chengpu, or forming improvised defenses as advised by Sun Bin.


    Taking all this together, the Chinese way of war would form a distinct experience in Europa Barbarorum II. With their emphasis on bows and crossbows, as well as the usage of chariots which are slower and clumsier than cavalry, the Chinese would likely be defensively oriented on the tactical map. A player would need to concern themselves with making sure their ranged units have proper defenses against sudden assaults, and would need to allow more time for their chariots to properly form up and orient themselves. But don't think they're lacking in good offensive options. The chariots are tough units, and given their high durability on an individual unit basis in the mod, will likely be vital in taking the offensive against hostile Chinese forces and soaking up countless arrows and bolts. The multiple melee arms deployed by a Chinese force also allows them a variety of answers against enemy soldiers, and some of your ranged units are fully capable of fighting in melee. You also have horse archers, which are some of the most swift and flexible units in the game, though it's unlikely many of them will do well in melee.

    China at this time was highly militarized, and possessed complex military science. Military texts often discuss discipline (including military drills) and the qualities of officers. Contrary to the common view of human waves (which in itself is taken too literally) and tossing peasants into meat grinders (the agrarian population was the core of most armies in history, including the famous Legiones,) the Chinese were fully capable of fielding highly trained and well equipped soldiers. That having been said, with the sheer amount of conscription employed by the Warring States, there'll be plenty of sub par units to be found.


    No matter which State they choose, the player would have much to do before they can achieve victory. Though Qin has already empowered themselves through the reforms of Shang Yang, and possess a skilled roster of generals commanding disciplined and motivated troops, topped off by the military legend Bai Qi; they are far from their ultimate victory. Whether you wish to see history through or turn it's tide, you must make use of the many powerful tools granted to you. Shake Heaven and Earth with your awesomeness, and create an empire of ten thousand years!





    References:


    • 1. http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History...hidengjue.html
    • 2. Frank Leeming, 1980. Official Landscapes in Traditional China, p.153-204 & Mark Lewis, 1990. Sanctioned Violence in Early China, p.63
    • 3. Chang'an 26 BCE: An Augustan Age in China.
    • 4. Zhan Guo Ce, 19.
    • 5. Shiji, 70.2293.
    • 6. Shiji, 81.2249-5.
    Last edited by BailianSteel; August 08, 2020 at 02:34 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Neat proposition, but least you'd do something like Takshashila (a related satelite state further East, don't think China got anything that'd apply though), I think the Maurian Empire would come first, in account of being closer.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Interesting idea.

    At least one faction could be added in the north of korea (a sort of proto-Koguryŏ kingdom) and three rebels region on the south to represent the future three confederations of Mahan, Jinhan and Byeonhan.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    Neat proposition, but least you'd do something like Takshashila (a related satelite state further East, don't think China got anything that'd apply though), I think the Maurian Empire would come first, in account of being closer.
    This isn't a game pitch or practical proposal to put China in the actual mod. As someone who dabbles in game dev I am vaguely aware of the thousands of man-hours it would take to actually make something like this, and that's assuming there's a team with the skills and dedication to work on it without a professional salary. I'm posting this in the EBII sub-forum because the idea's based off of the EBII mod. I might write something up for a completely distinct Total War later on.

    Closest thing I can think of to organically incorporating China into EBII is to make a Han Dynasty Invasion event where they try to invade Central Asia. Historically they got as far as the Ferghana Valley, which is a part of Alexandria Eschate in-game.

    I imagine fleshing out Taksashila more (even if it's just adding in names and descriptions) is somewhere in EBII's pipeline, I'm looking forward to seeing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by torf View Post
    Interesting idea.

    At least one faction could be added in the north of korea (a sort of proto-Koguryŏ kingdom) and three rebels region on the south to represent the future three confederations of Mahan, Jinhan and Byeonhan.
    Thanks. In this hypothetical East Asia mod, there'd absolutely be distinct factions for the proto-Korean and proto-Vietnamese nations. One of the more disappointing things about TW:3K is that there's no non-Chinese factions, when those were some of the biggest campaigns in the actual book.

  5. #5
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Ancient China would be great of course, but there are so many factions that are already left out of the mod (such as Syracuse) that it would be crazy to add those factions so far from the main map.

    It would be a great mod or submod.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    So many many cultures and kingdoms along the Silk Road, if only a mod could incorporate all of them...


    Although the Chinese dynasties of the era usually were in good terms with the parties holding the Westernmost parts of these routes.


    But even if a supermod of this size would be possible with this many regions... I think the biggest challenge would be to make it realistically impossible for factions to stretch too far. Player empires in TW mods can already become much bigger that it was realistically possible with the technology of the periods they cover.
    Last edited by Satapatiš; June 23, 2020 at 08:53 AM.
    Furthermore, I believe that Rome must be destroyed.


  7. #7

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    State of Qi





    Difficulty:

    Moderate. Qi starts in a position of weakness and needs to recover from their near destruction at the hands of Yan and Yue Yi. However, they have a long history of innovation and prosperity. The capital of Qi, Linzi, possesses several natural advantages. Lastly, they are one of most geographically distant States from Qin, and should have a good amount of time before Qin attempts their conquest of Qi.


    Roster:

    Vast armies in the Chinese fashion wielding a variety of melee and ranged weapons, such as the crossbow and halberd. Qi specializes in attack, and under direction of a skilled general like Sun Bin they can divide into multiple columns to attack an enemy. Yet thanks to wealth and social inequality the majority of Qi forces have comparatively low morale. They are bolstered by small number of non-Chinese auxiliaries (likely the Yi and Di in this case.) Chariots are initially one of the primary arms of the roster, but cavalry will dramatically increase after expansion to the north and west. These two, and the professional soldiery are the best trained soldiers in the State and the true measure of a State's might.


    Introduction:

    [WIP]
    Last edited by BailianSteel; June 26, 2020 at 03:32 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Quote Originally Posted by BailianSteel View Post
    Thanks. In this hypothetical East Asia mod, there'd absolutely be distinct factions for the proto-Korean and proto-Vietnamese nations. One of the more disappointing things about TW:3K is that there's no non-Chinese factions, when those were some of the biggest campaigns in the actual book.
    I'm completly agree. It's very disappointing to have no non-chinese factions on TW:3K.

    Have you planed to have a slightly larger map to add a bigger part of Japan ? Like this you could also have a proto-Wa faction of the yayoi period.

    The reconstitution of a yayoi period village :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  9. #9
    Cohors_Evocata's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    A very interesting proposal indeed. Time to mess that up.

    (Seriously, I don't mean to be a spoilsport, but I think there's two potential big issues I see with a hypothetical EB II-style mod set in East Asia in the same time period. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong)


    • Names. All the names we use for the various Chinese states, characters and such are based on modern Mandarin pronunciation of the respective characters and that problem gets even worse when trying to reconstruct the autonyms of non-Chinese people recorded in Chinese texts. For example, the nowadays rather (in)famous Yuezhi derive their name from the modern pronunciation of the characters 月氏. Wiktionary's reconstruction of their Old Chinese pronunciation becomes *ŋod-kje and even then the question remains how accurately the OC name preserves the hypothetical endonym, if at all. Consider this, but for most of the named characters in the mod (admittedly, the Chinese characters would be easier themselves)
    • Sources: I don't think we have any written sources for whatever states may have existed for most of Indochina or Japan during this period. That severely limits the geographic scope the mod can have, as I imagine archaeology alone won't tell you enough about the existence of potential factions. Yayoi-period Japan is mentioned upthread, but I don't think we have evidence for the existence of specific named states in the Japanese archipelago until the third century CE...


    Having said that, I feel it's a very big shame neither Rome 2 nor Imperator: Rome had the guts to expand their map all the way into the North China Plain. I imagine they could have used Terra Incognita to deal with the areas for which we don't have enough information and left a potential connecting route with the "conventional" world of antiquity through the Tarim Basin. Heck, Imperator's map seems set up to do that eventually...
    Last edited by Cohors_Evocata; June 25, 2020 at 04:21 PM.
    I tend to edit my posts once or several times after writing and uploading them. Please keep this in mind when reading a recent post of mine. Also, should someone, for some unimaginable reason, wish to rep me, please add your username in the process, so I can at least know whom to be grateful towards.

    My thanks in advance.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Quote Originally Posted by torf View Post
    I'm completly agree. It's very disappointing to have no non-chinese factions on TW:3K.

    Have you planed to have a slightly larger map to add a bigger part of Japan ? Like this you could also have a proto-Wa faction of the yayoi period.
    I'm afraid I have no real plans to make an actual mod, my hands are full for the forseeable future. I'd have no problems having the proto-Wa if the information's there (though to my limited knowledge Japan kept to itself until Himiko sent an emissary to Cao Wei.) Feel free to write a profile for the factions you want, though each civilization deserves it's own thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    A very interesting proposal indeed. Time to mess that up.

    (Seriously, I don't mean to be a spoilsport, but I think there's two potential big issues I see with a hypothetical EB II-style mod set in East Asia in the same time period. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong)


    • Names. All the names we use for the various Chinese states, characters and such are based on modern Mandarin pronunciation of the respective characters and that problem gets even worse when trying to reconstruct the autonyms of non-Chinese people recorded in Chinese texts. For example, the nowadays rather (in)famous Yuezhi derive their name from the modern pronunciation of the characters 月氏. Wiktionary's reconstruction of their Old Chinese pronunciation becomes *ŋod-kje and even then the question remains how accurately the OC name preserves the hypothetical endonym, if at all. Consider this, but for most of the named characters in the mod (admittedly, the Chinese characters would be easier themselves)
    • Sources: I don't think we have any written sources for whatever states may have existed for most of Indochina or Japan during this period. That severely limits the geographic scope the mod can have, as I imagine archaeology alone won't tell you enough about the existence of potential factions. Yayoi-period Japan is mentioned upthread, but I don't think we have evidence for the existence of specific named states in the Japanese archipelago until the third century CE...


    Having said that, I feel it's a very big shame neither Rome 2 nor Imperator: Rome had the guts to expand their map all the way into the North China Plain. I imagine they could have used Terra Incognita to deal with the areas for which we don't have enough information and left a potential connecting route with the "conventional" world of antiquity through the Tarim Basin. Heck, Imperator's map seems set up to do that eventually...
    Is this a Roman invasion of Chinese airspace? Come at me bro!



    (I couldn't find an appropriate image of the pose from a quick search, so here's an imitation.)


    Anyways, my main goal here is to distill my knowledge of Chinese history applicable to this time period, to a faction design doc. If nothing else happens aside from the thread being written, I'll be satisfied with that. The points you raised are good (and provides some historical info,) so no harm done.

    Truth be told, Old Chinese was one of my biggest writer's-blocks when I was writing the OP. I was also skeptical of Daqin/Roma meaning Great Qin. At the very least netizens that don't understand East Asian languages are probably judging it from the latinization alone, which is a mistake. I'm hoping that one day I'd learn enough Old Chinese to edit in the period-accurate names later.

    Info on larger Indochina and Japan is pretty sparse, but I believe we have enough knowledge to stretch the map down to Yunnan.


    I wouldn't be surprised if Paradox puts China in Imperator. They put all of East Asia in EU4. Though honestly I didn't like the way Ming was done in EU4. It seems like there's a pretty big wall between the companies who want Asian audiences, and the people who are passionate about Asian history and culture.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Quote Originally Posted by BailianSteel View Post
    I'm afraid I have no real plans to make an actual mod, my hands are full for the forseeable future. I'd have no problems having the proto-Wa if the information's there (though to my limited knowledge Japan kept to itself until Himiko sent an emissary to Cao Wei.) Feel free to write a profile for the factions you want, though each civilization deserves it's own thread.
    Sorry, my knowledge is limited too. The only writen source about Japan are scarses chinese sources. The main sources of information is archeology. We know that, during the EBII timeframe, hierarchical structures appears in society, and that they have contacts with Korea and China.

  12. #12
    Cohors_Evocata's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Quote Originally Posted by BailianSteel;15928942
    Is this a Roman invasion of Chinese airspace? Come at me bro!

    [IMG
    https://i.redd.it/okwcf3upd7751.jpg[/IMG]

    (I couldn't find an appropriate image of the pose from a quick search, so here's an imitation.)

    Anyways, my main goal here is to distill my knowledge of Chinese history applicable to this time period, to a faction design doc. If nothing else happens aside from the thread being written, I'll be satisfied with that. The points you raised are good (and provides some historical info,) so no harm done.

    Truth be told, Old Chinese was one of my biggest writer's-blocks when I was writing the OP. I was also skeptical of Daqin/Roma meaning Great Qin. At the very least netizens that don't understand East Asian languages are probably judging it from the latinization alone, which is a mistake. I'm hoping that one day I'd learn enough Old Chinese to edit in the period-accurate names later.

    Info on larger Indochina and Japan is pretty sparse, but I believe we have enough knowledge to stretch the map down to Yunnan.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Paradox puts China in Imperator. They put all of East Asia in EU4. Though honestly I didn't like the way Ming was done in EU4. It seems like there's a pretty big wall between the companies who want Asian audiences, and the people who are passionate about Asian history and culture.
    Do not mistake me for some cheap conjurer of Romanophilia! I have disputed the need for Lorica Segmentata many times and will continue to do so in the future!

    Yeah, I imagine you could probably go down south as far as the Red River valley and Hainan, east into North Korea and perhaps even as far as Kyushu, even if I don't think a fleshed-out faction there would be feasible (we know a state the Chinese referred to as "Na" existed in 57 CE, likely in the area around Fukuoka, and that's about it until the 3rd century). The Xiongnu in Mongolia make a fairly natural northern limit, but I have no idea what factions you could have directly to the west of Qin... in effect, roughly the ancient Sinosphere. If you wanted to include India as well, you'd stumble into the Indochina conundrum...

    Out of curiousity, what makes you doubt the Daqin interpretation? To my knowledge, it's the same character used for the Qin dynasty and Daqin, isn't it? Learning Old Chinese would be cool, but I don't think we even have a universally accepted reconstruction yet...
    Last edited by Cohors_Evocata; June 28, 2020 at 04:09 PM.
    I tend to edit my posts once or several times after writing and uploading them. Please keep this in mind when reading a recent post of mine. Also, should someone, for some unimaginable reason, wish to rep me, please add your username in the process, so I can at least know whom to be grateful towards.

    My thanks in advance.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    I'll toast to that.

    To the direct west of Qin, I believe there lies the Quanrong (or "Dog Rong" as they are called in Oriental Empires) and Qiang peoples. As far as I know they weren't in much of a position to build empires in EBII's time frame and up until the Tang era. They still posed a military threat to the historical capital region (Guanzhong) and warranted a few military expeditions from the Han. Oriental Empires places the Dingling north of the Xiongnu, but that game is pretty fuzzy with it's time scale. Han campaigns against the Xiongnu and Xianbei reached pretty far north.

    I did see that that the characters for Daqin do correspond to "Great Qin," I was skeptical for some time because at one point the sensationalist thing was to search for links between China and Greece and Rome that weren't there.

    Didn't know that there's not a universally accepted reconstruction for Old Chinese. That's a bit of a downer, but there are books that can get me started. I'll just have to source where I learnt it from and roll with what happens.

    I realize how overconfident I sound. "Oh, I'll just learn this long lost, niche language and be spitting fire poetry like a dragon." I plan on keeping this post going for the long haul, updating it over years of time.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Braves and Worthies


    Generals


    Bai Qi(白起): This man needs no introduction, Bai Qi is one of China's greatest generals and most notorious mass murderers. The recorded amount of people killed by Bai Qi numbers 790,000 in his most famous battles alone, causing revulsion and skepticism for over a thousand years. His actual military feats are undeniably impressive. Within his first year of service, he defeated a joint army of the State of Han and the State of Wei at Yique, supposedly claiming 240,000 heads, 5 cities, and a hostage in Gongsun Xi. From this, he jumped from the 12th rank to the 16th rank within a few years. Over a decade later, he claimed the capital of the State of Chu and forced it's king into flight, incorporating the region into the growing Qin power as a Commandery. From this, he claimed a lordship, one of the highest honors of ancient Chinese society. By the time EBII starts, he's already a top candidate for the greatest general in the world. Having served for two decades he is likely at the pinnacle of experience, and is at the very least a skilled besieger, having spent a good chunk of his service claiming cities. Bai Qi was also appointed supreme commander fairly early in his career, and that Qin went from strength to strength in this period should demonstrate Bai Qi's skills.

    Of course, his career was not remotely done by 272 BCE. A decade later he would commit his most infamous act, the massacre of Changping. Now leaving aside the questionable figure of 400,000 people being buried alive, the State of Zhao was clearly weakened by this defeat, as they suffered several attacks afterwards. Bai Qi sought to destroy the State of Zhao outright after Changping, and five years later Zhao was attacked by the State of Yan seeking to exploit their losses.1 Ultimately, Changping would be Bai Qi's final legacy. After being denied his opportunity to extinguish Zhao by the jealous courtier Fan Ju, Bai Qi's relations with the King rapidly deteriorated, and he committed suicide. As unimaginably bloody as his tenure was, Bai Qi is widely regarded as one of China's greatest generals, and would be a beast on EBII's battlefields.


    References:

    1 https://classical-chinese.blogspot.c...o-and-lin.html
    (CTRL+F, then type in "Li Fu")

    https://classical-chinese.blogspot.c...f-qin-was.html
    (CTRL + F, then type in "Bai Qi")

    http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History...sonsbaiqi.html



    Lian Po(廉頗): The iconic old soldier of China, Lian Po was famed for his valor and long service. He served the State of Zhao for at least 283 BCE, where his biography in Shiji starts, to 244 BCE, the year before Li Mu is appointed to wage war on the State of Yan. Considering that his first appearance was his conquest of the State of Qi's Yanjin city, being promoted to Senior Minister as a result, his service certainly extends beyond the recorded 39 years of his biography. Shortly before 272 BCE he was quite active, having waged three campaigns against Qi and Wei. He seized the cities of Ji, Fanling, and Anyang; as well as destroyed a Qi outpost. His most famous battle was his participation in the years-long Battle of Changping, having been appointed general and sent to rescue Zhao forces from the brink of destruction. Though it was the State of Zhao's most infamous defeat, Lian Po performed well. Despite the Zhao force losing many smaller encounters before his arrival, Lian Po managed to hold his positions until King Xiaocheng replaced him with Zhao Gua. The State of Qin also suffered heavy losses from Changping, perhaps we can attribute that to Lian Po.

    The ultimate testimony to Lian Po's loyalty to Zhao came after his dismissal from command at Changping. Through no fault of his own, he was disgraced and abandoned by his clientele. In that day and age it was common for generals, administrators, and even lords to transfer allegiances to other States based on their fortune and whatever rewards the other State has prepared. Yet Lian Po remained in Zhao; and when the State of Yan attacked to exploit Zhao's losses, Lian Po was once again appointed general. He demonstrated his strength and destroyed the Yan forces, pushing them back to their capital. In the end, Yan had to offer five cities to call a ceasefire. The magnitude of his accomplishments were demonstrated by his extensive rewards: a fief in Weiwen, the title Lord of Xinping, and the position of vice prime minister. As a reminder of the fickle nature of the times, Lian Po's clientele returned to him, excusing their behavior by pointing out how common it was to abandon those suffering misfortune. This good fortune would not last, as Lian Po was once again removed from command by King Daoxiang. This finally broke Lian Po's loyalty and caused him to leave for the State of Wei. Though he would seek command in the initial years of exile, including an attempt to reinstate himself in Zhao, he lost his passion for warfare and died in service to the State of Chu.

    Lian Po had quite the colorful personality, his conflict with Lin Xiangru and eventual close bond with him is a famous episode in Chinese history. He seemed to lack respect for men of the pen, as part of what started his conflict with Lin Xiangru was his lack of military service and commoner origins, though it should be pointed out that Lin Xiangru was promoted to a higher post than Lian Po within a few years of service to King Huiwen. Similarly, when King Huiwen found himself personally threatened by Qin when obligated to sign a ceasefire in Qin territory, Lian Po asked for permission to enthrone the Crown Prince to prevent Qin from using Huiwen as a hostage.

    Lian Po would likely be one of the most useful generals to start a campaign with. He is brave, talented in command, especially skilled in defense, not at all bad at attacking, and most importantly, he is loyal.

    References:

    https://classical-chinese.blogspot.c...o-and-lin.html

    http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History...onslianpo.html



    Li Mu (李牧): One of the most famous underdogs of Chinese history, Li Mu has made his mark on history through his exploits against the Xiongnu and his resistance against the State of Qin. Originally posted to the State of Zhao's northern frontier to guard against the Xiongnu, Li Mu's peculiar tactics seem to have attracted the most attention out of any famous general in the Shiji. He effectively oversaw every military and civilian aspect of Dai and Yanmen, having the power to appoint officials, draining all the tax income of the towns to pay the soldiers, directed military feasts and training exercises, and maintained the beacon towers as a warning system. His most notable command was this: “Should the Xiongnu come rampaging, hurry back to the fortifications and defend them, those who will take prisoners will be executed." Whenever the Xiongnu would come to raid the area, the beacon towers would send an alert, and the Zhao soldiers would withdraw to their fortifications. This would go on for several years, with no casualties, and cause both the Xiongnu and Zhao to think Li Mu was a coward. Finding this situation intolerable, the King of Zhao replaced Li Mu. The new general (who is not even named in the Shiji) matched the Xiongnu's aggression, but this only plunged the region into warfare and prevented the people from farming or herding. After a year of this had passed, the King of Zhao insisted on reappointing Li Mu, which Li Mu only accepted when he extracted a promise that he could resume his old method. Thus the original state of affairs resumed for several years. Only then was he prepared to strike.

    Upon ensuring that his men were eager for battle, he gathered his army and ensured they were properly drilled and disciplined. The count given for his army is 1300 Chariots, 13,000 horsemen, 50,000 officers from families possessing over 100 talents of gold, and 100,000 archers. Li Mu lured in the Xiongnu with cattle and farmers, and sacrificed a few thousand men to them. This would attract the attention of the Xiongnu Shanyu, and he brought a large army for invasion. Having drawn in the Xiongnu, the Zhao army encircled them on the left and right, and annihilated the host. Li Mu killed 100,000 Xiongnu, destroyed Chanlan, defeated both the Eastern and Forest Hu, and sent the Shanyu into flight. The Xiongnu would not approach Zhao again for 10 years.

    Unfortunately, we do not have as much detail on Li Mu's battles against Qin or the other States. He was appointed general by King Daoxiang in 243 BCE, after Lian Po left for Wei. Li Mu fought the State of Yan, taking Wusui and Fangcheng. Nine years afterwards, Qin had killed general Hu Zhe and 10,000 men. In response Zhao named Li Mu general in chief. Despite the grievous losses Zhao had sustained from the Battle of Changping, Li Mu was able to grant Zhao a brief resurgence. He divided the Qin force in two by baiting them with a fortified camp at Feidi. Once Qin sent a force to attack it, Li Mu attacked Qin in Yi'an and defeated them, sending general Huan Yi into flight. This earned Li Mu a reward of a fief, and the title of Lord of Wu'an, the same title granted to Bai Qi. Like his countryman Lian Po, Li Mu's good fortune would not last. Years later, Wang Jian set out to destroy Zhao, and Li Mu and Sima Shang set out to meet him. Yet Qin convinced the Zhao king that Li Mu and Sima Shang were planning to rebel, and Zhao tried to replace them. Refusing to submit, Li Mu was executed by the nation he tried to save. Within three months, Wang Jian defeated the replacements Zhao Cong and Yan Ju, killing Zhao Cong, taking Yan Ju and the Zhao King Qian prisoner, and destroyed the State of Zhao.

    Li Mu is certainly a worthy addition to the roster of EBII's generals. That he maintained and implemented a strict set of orders in the face of an aggressive enemy for years on end indicates that he was a skilled disciplinarian. Given his fondness for baiting out the enemy and playing the long game, we can say that Li Mu was a skilled strategist and ambusher. He might be a skilled administrator as well, amongst this roster he seemed to be unique in his responsibilities in Dai and Yanmen, and these territories ceased to profit Zhao when Li Mu's replacement pursued a combative approach to the Xiongnu. Li Mu caused much trouble for Qin even after they won the Battle of Changping and besieged Handan, making their ultimate victory seem inevitable. This indicates extreme loyalty and intense dedication to resist the odds. There is a problem in that Li Mu appears in the historical record in 265 BCE, 7 years after the starting date. Given that he already pursued his strategy then, we can assume that he had military experience before that year, but putting Li Mu in the game around the start date will have to be based on assumption. Even so, Li Mu would certainly be worth the compromise.

    References:

    http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History...rsonslimu.html

    https://classical-chinese.blogspot.c...o-and-lin.html
    (CTRL+F, then type in "Li Mu")



    Tian Dan (田單): The unexpected savior of the State of Qi. Before Qi was nearly wiped out by the State of Yan and Yue Yi, Tian Dan was a was a man of no note. He did not even serve in a military capacity, despite being related to the royal Tian clan, but worked as the supervisor of the market at the capital, Linzi. He lived under the reign of the militaristic King Min, who sought to declare himself Di of the East, with King Zhaoxiang of Qin being Di of the West; helped Zhao destroy the State of Zhongshan; and conquered the State of Song. King Min had eventually brought the wrath of all of China down on Qi, and Yue Yi led a coalition that destroyed the Qi army. Afterwards Yan had managed to sack Linzi and occupy the vast majority of the country. King Min initially fled to the State of Wei, but was driven out. The State of Chu sent Nao Chi to aid Qi, but thanks to a personal grudge he killed King Min and occupied the Qi-Chu border. At the very least, Nao Chi did repulse the Yan force sent to conquer Min's refuge of Ju. By this point, only the cities of Jimo and Ju continued to resist.

    While the State of Qi crumbled around him, Tian Dan and his family struggled to survive. Once Linzi fell, he was forced to flee to Anping, but the forces of Yan besieged Anping too. Tian Dan advised his family to cut the axles of their chariots short and cover them with iron. Once the walls were breached, the people of Anping fled. Their chariots could not handle the stress and broke, leaving them to be captured by Yan forces. Tian Dan and his family were the only ones to make it to the stronghold of Jimo. After failing to conquer Ju, the Yan army instead decided to march on Jimo. The commander of Jimo sallied forth, but was defeated and killed. In desperation the people of Jimo turned to Tian Dan and proclaimed him general. “During the battle of Anping, all the family of Tian Dan escaped thanks to his axle-caps. This man is a strategist.”

    Tian Dan would finally receive a stroke of luck when King Zhao of Yan died, as his successor had a poor relationship with Yue Yi. Tian Dan employed rumor and deception extensively, using the former to trick the new King Hui into thinking Yue Yi coveted the throne of Qi. Upon hearing that he would be replaced as commander by Ji Jie, Yue Yi abandoned his army and fled to Zhao. Though this first blow was likely the most important, Tian Dan was not remotely done using rumor. He tricked the army of Yan into believing that spirits were with the people of Jimo. Then through rumor he made the Yan soldiers despoil graves and mutilate prisoners, infuriating the Qi populace. Despite a lack of experience and training, Tian Dan managed to conduct himself competently in his position as commander. He had his officers and soldiers share the same work, and did not exempt himself from labor. He would ease the stress of his men by having women serve food and drink to every five-man squad (Wu 伍.) By concealing his soldiers, posting the elderly on the walls, and bribing the Yan commander with gold levied from Jimo's populace, Tian Dan lured the army of Yan into complacency. His civilian character did show through when one of his soldiers wanted to desert during the spirit episode. Whereas many Chinese commanders would have beheaded or beaten the man, Tian Dan personally went after him and gave him a place of honor, all in exchange for silence on the matter.

    Finally, the time came for Tian Dan to break the Yan army. He had sally ports dug into the walls. He collected a thousand oxen from the people of the city. He dressed the oxen like dragons, with blades attached to their horns, and oiled reeds bound to their tails. At nighttime, the oxen had their tails set alight and released outside the city. They charged into the Yan army, throwing them into disarray. Five thousand Qi soldiers wearing gags in their mouths attacked the Yan in their disorder. The people of the city shouted and pounded drums and struck their pots. The Yan army besieging Jimo was put to flight and Ji Jie was killed. The rest of Qi revolted against Yan occupiers, and Tian Dan restored up to seventy cities to Qi. Once this was done, he went to Ju; where King Xiang of Qi was crowned after the death of King Min, and finally returned to Linzi. After all his accomplishments, Tian Dan leapt from a simple market supervisor to Counsellor-in-Chief (Xiang 相,) Lord of Anping, and commander of Yeyi.

    According Sima Qian's commentary, planning was required to deploy soldiers, but improvisation was needed to achieve victory. Tian Dan mastered both arts, and were able to employ them without end. It's clear that he was skilled at deception, and his maneuverings could affect the courts of his enemies under the right circumstances. As far as military men go, he was rather kind. The issue of his loyalty is an interesting one. He fought against incredible odds to save Qi from destruction, but eventually left Qi to serve in Zhao. Why this happened, we do not know. He's one of the more interesting characters of the times, and given that he served King Xiaocheng of Zhao, whose reign began in 265 BCE, we can guess that he's still alive and in service to Qi by the time EBII begins.


    References:

    http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History...nstiandan.html

    https://classical-chinese.blogspot.c...-tian-dan.html



    Yue Yi:


    Marquis Rang/Wei Ran:


    Administrators/Philosophers


    Lin Xiangru:




    Royalty/Nobility


    Lord Xinling/Prince Wuji of Wei:


    Lord Mengchang:


    Lord Pingyuan:
    Last edited by BailianSteel; August 08, 2020 at 02:12 AM.

  15. #15
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar I am your sovereign now
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    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Quote Originally Posted by BailianSteel View Post
    Thanks. In this hypothetical East Asia mod, there'd absolutely be distinct factions for the proto-Korean and proto-Vietnamese nations. One of the more disappointing things about TW:3K is that there's no non-Chinese factions, when those were some of the biggest campaigns in the actual book.
    I haven't played it yet, heard it was bad (like all the most recent TW titles), and this only reinforces that notion. The rebellion of the Qiang peoples in Liang province to the north, joined by the Lesser Yuezhi and even some ethnic Han Chinese, was nearly as consequential for Eastern Han China as the Yellow Turban Rebellion. Do they really ignore it altogether? Sad. For that matter Cao Cao led a massive campaign in the northeast into what is now Manchuria to fight the remaining members of the rival Yuan clan allied to the Wuhuan peoples. The defeat of the Wuhuan allowed for the rise of the Xianbei, who proved to be an even bigger threat to the Chinese. To remove these historical elements from the game seems obnoxious if not blasphemous to me as far as pedantic historical accuracy goes.

    Also, great work hashing together a Chinese-style EBII mod idea, so + rep.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Thanks. Feel free to write your own pitch if you'd like, I think you'd have a lot to contribute. I still have things I want to write up, such as government structure and the army roster.

    I haven't played TW:3K either, but I have been looking up the wider Total War community. Some of what I've heard is promising, and some of it is worrying. I was disappointed they chose the Three Kingdoms to begin with. I know that it's the economically sound decision, but that doesn't stop me from being disappointed at how...vanilla it is. Various hints like the complete lack of non-Chinese presence at launch (it took a few months for them to add in non-Chinese units in the roster,) using the counterweight trebuchet instead of the historically accurate traction trebuchet (something they got right for Shogun 2,) and the wannabe Dynasty Warrior/Warhammer system indicates that the dominant mindset was one that wanted to appeal to mass markets, not one that wanted to explore Three Kingdoms China. Worst of all, some of the higher ups might learn the wrong lessons from 3K and force more wannabe mechanics on future TW games.

    Also White Wolf Mountain was one of Cao Cao's most badass moments, real pity that it's not possible to recreate it in 3K. (Don't know about Zhuge Liang's historical campaigns to the south, but the one in the Romance is pretty cool.)

    On the other hand, there's apparently now a diplomatic and character interaction system more complex than just being targets to cut down, the latter of which was one of the biggest downgrades post Medieval 2. From what I hear the AI is better than ever, and the endgame mechanics are at their best in 3K. After the success of 3K they're not going to abandon the historical Total Wars to pursue Warhammer, and there's hope that they'll visit another period of China.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Governments


    [Chart & Icons WIP]




    [N]|-> Commandants for the Envoys/Shizhe xiaowei (使者校尉) ->The Temporary Headquarters/Wuji xiaowei (戊己校尉)
    |
    No Bureaucracy/Government (HERESY) -> 安諸-Anzhu-(Pacified Region) [Chinese Region?] [Y]-> 縣-Xian-(County) -> 郡-Jun-(Commandery) [Potential Capital Region?] [Y]-> [New Son of Heaven Reform?] [Y]-> 國-Princedom-(Guo)
    | |
    |_>Tributary State [No Explanation Needed] -> Vassal King [WIP] -> Allied Democracy or Oligarchy [N]|_> 國-Kingdom-(Guo)*


    *You can only have one of these, it's the royal seat. It will only become a construction option should you destroy or lose your Kingdom in your starting capital region.



    Pacified Region/ (安諸)


    [WIP, for one thing, I'm not sure if this is a historically authentic term.]


    County/Xian (縣)


    To create a farm, you must first plant a single seed. To create a city wall, you must first flatten a single pound of earth. To create an army, you must first train a single soldier. To create an empire, you must first create a single County. The elementary building block of civic government, even the capital itself will have the humble County as the foundation of it's administration. The term itself is as old as the glory days of Zhou, but we do not know as much on the administration of that bygone era.3 Once, the term Xian referred to the land outside a walled city which was inhabited by farm laborers and servants of the nobility. Already by late the Spring and Autumn period the Xian had become the primary source for recruitment. As the States sought to increase their available control and manpower, the Xian grew in importance until it was ubiquitous throughout China.1 A Commandery could consist of 15 to over 30 Counties.

    Even at this level, a complex system was used to govern a county. Being overseen by a Magistrate (Ling 令 or Xian Ling 縣令 or Se Fu 嗇夫,) he had an extensive staff with vice magistrates (Cheng 丞,) military commanders (Wei 尉,) cavalry commanders (Si Ma 司馬,) and construction officers (Si Kong 司空,) oh my!3 The many tasks a County must carry out are divided between Bureaus (Cao 曹) and Offices (Guan 官.) They are arranged according to the sexagenary "Heavenly Stems and Earthly Branches" cosmology. The basic personnel for this system was the Scribe (Shi 史.)


    Commandery/Jun (郡)


    With the mighty armies of the king and the employment of worthies, we have scoured this land of bandits and placed the people under wise governance, yet still this is not enough. For if a State cannot raise an army of ten thousand men from ten thousand families, if it cannot plant ten thousand convicts to provision the king's army, if it cannot implement the ordinances of the ministers and generals, it will surely perish! The way to benefit the people and the State is to sacrifice at the ancestral temple, grant a worthy man the implements of office, and create a Commandery to oversee the region.

    What was once a smaller subunit to the Xian, above only the Community/Bi (鄙), is now a critical element of the Warring States. As of 272 BCE, the Commandery is the largest unit of administration within the various States. They are also primary unit of administration used to govern new territories in Warring States practice, as demonstrated by Qin's conquest of Sichuan and Ying.3

    Overseen by single governor (called Shou or Tai Shou,) though he has an extensive roster of officials aiding him with matters of military, construction, and more; it could be said that he the leader of a Commandery was a king in miniature. The tale of Li Mu demonstrates that he had extensive autonomy in dictating military commands, controlling finances, and governing his territory. Feng Ting was Governor of Shangdang Commandery, and once he was cut off from the rest of the State of Han, made the fateful choice to submit to Zhao. This decision would bring about the chain of events that lead to the Battle of Changping.

    Later on, the Qin and Han Dynasties would split the responsibilities of the Governor into two civil and martial roles. The post of Governor was retained, but was now civil-oriented. Military responsibilities would fall upon a dedicated military official, Wei 尉 during Qin, and Du Wei 都尉 during Han. The Dynasties also implemented a variety of Inspectorates to survey the efficiency of the administration.


    Kingdom/Guo (國)


    Behold, Sage Ruler, the wondrous sight of your city, your palaces, and the ancestral temples. From here, you command armies that shake the earth, and cities of enough wealth to choke a river. This is where grand projects that will shape the very face of the Earth are conceived. This is where the King communes with the spirits of soil and grain, and puts the entire realm at ease. Should you lose this land, this may very well be where your State dies.

    Technically speaking this area is not what you refer to as a State or Kingdom, that refers to the entirety of the royal domain. But by Chinese practice, this region provides the name for the State as a whole. A capital region does have several differences between it's own administration and that of other Commanderies and Counties. It is the site of the royal tombs and temples, where the most important rituals are held. It is where the King resides, and constructs the majority of his palaces. The diplomatic missions of the greatest importance are conducted in this region, within the various palaces. Historically speaking, when a capital was lost, a State could be considered extinguished. When Zhao was forced from it's capital of Handan, it was considered extinguished and the royal family had to declare a new State from Dai. Wei is also referred to as Liang because they transferred their capital from Anyi to Daliang.


    Chinese Empire Established/New Son of Heaven Reform


    Princedom/Guo (國)




    Non-Chinese expansion/Protectorates


    Commandants for the Envoys/Shizhe Xiaowei (使者校尉)




    The Temporary Headquarters/Wuji Xiaowei (戊己校尉)






    References:

    For all matters relating to the Western Regions and Protectorates:
    http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Altera/xiyu.html
    http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History...jixiaowei.html
    1- Mark Edward Lewis. 2010, pg.33
    2- Sun Wenbo. 2018.
    3- http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History...rnmentdongzhou
    (CTRL + F, then type in "Commandery" for information on Commanderies, Counties are called "districts", but the Pinyin ("Xian") is the same)
    Last edited by BailianSteel; August 02, 2020 at 07:28 AM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    This is not a good font colour

  19. #19

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Bah, the bamboo I'm using for my scroll is messing with my ink.

    For some reason TWCenter is pretty screwy on my browser, it logs me out automatically after 15 minutes or something. This isn't even the version I meant to post, it was a draft.



    Well, my attempt at an ASCII chart failed. Good thing I posted that really rough draft of the government structure.
    Last edited by BailianSteel; August 02, 2020 at 06:09 AM. Reason: ASCII Fail

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