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Thread: Ancient China, EBII Style

  1. #1

    Default Ancient China, EBII Style

    So this time I feel like doing something different. This is just my little write up on what a Chinese faction in EBII would look like. This is all purely for fun, I have no expectations for the addition of East Asia into the mod. Not all of what I'm going to write down here will be of a high standard of historical accuracy, hopefully over time I can improve it on a historical and fun basis.


    The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide. In the year 272 BCE, the very first of the cycles nears it's end. While the Makedones have begun to settle and draw their borders, the Romani are still preparing for wars in the greater Mediterranean world, and India would soon see the rule of Maharaja Ahsoka; another land is consumed by the flames of war. Ancient China nears the end of the Warring States period, the culmination of a long process of decay of the hallowed house of Zhou and the rise of new authorities based on centralized bureaucracy. And this particular point in time is an interesting one indeed, for it is in this epoch that the notorious generals Bai Qi, Lian Po, Wang Jian, and Li Mu fought massive battles that determined the fate of hundreds of thousands. While Wang Jian and Li Mu had yet to rise to notoriety, Bai Qi had already massacred myriads of men at the Battle of Qique; more recently he had seized the capital of the State of Chu, and in this year he is about to massacre another army at Huayang. His most notorious act, the mass murder of an entire generation of the State of Zhao, also has yet to come. That's not to say the rest of China has been peaceful. A few decades earlier, the last vestige of the ancient Shang, the State of Song, was extinguished by the State of Qi. Flushed with victory, Qi planned to divide China between itself and Qin as Di of the East and West. In turn they were nearly extinguished by the State of Yan and Yue Yi, being reduced to only two cities. They barely avoided extinction thanks to the ingenuity of Tian Dan. The State of Lu, which wrote much of the history of the preceding Spring and Autumn period (as a matter of fact, the name Spring and Autumn comes from Lu's Spring and Autumn Annals,) was also destroyed by the State of Chu.



    Faction Fundamentals








    China is split into Seven Warring States, with several lesser states managing to cling on, including the increasingly defunct Zhou Dynasty. By this time nearly all pretense of adhering to the order of the house of Zhou is gone. The former Dukes who ruled the regional states have all declared themselves Kings, and constantly seek to expand their dominion at the expense of other States. To this end they have all developed centralized bureaucracies, meritocratic ranking systems, the infamous long walls, and advanced military science. The first two will be a large part of what distinguishes a Chinese playthrough on the Campaign Map. At this time Chinese citizens were sorted according to a system of ranks in ascending order.1Climbing this system of ranks required feats in battle such as the slaying of enemies (proven by presenting decapitated heads,) and victory in the battlefield. Higher ranks conferred a number of benefits such as social prestige and a larger income stream, as such Chinese character holding high ranks are likelier to be Wealthy. There was also a split between civil and military principles, with some notable figures serving as military generals or scholars and ministers. While there was some degree of overlap, it seems like most Chinese characters choose to excel in one aspect or the other.


    Thus a Chinese faction would likely possess a system similar to the Druit/Kingetos system used by the Keltoi, encouraging Chinese characters to invest in a martial career, or an administrative one. This will be represented in a ChineseMilitary trait spelling out their military position and responsibilities, and a ChineseCivil trait that does the same for their civil career. Though they can increase their rank by progressing along both paths, increase in rank only corresponds to their highest position in one field. So a Chinese character who spent his entire career fighting battles now wishes to increase his rank through the civil path will now have to start from scratch and build up to an equivalent rank.


    Chinese Faction Leaders stand above this system, they have no need to personally administrate or command armies. Though they may have practical experience before their ascension, especially if the main branch is extinguished and the State is forced to look into the branch families for a ruler. Any rank or Civil/Military traits should be removed once crowned. Due to their ritual and administrative responsibilities, Chinese Faction Leaders rarely lead armies in the field, and doing so will likely attract discontent for the risk to the ruler's person.


    The Chinese also employ a system of colonization. We know that Qin historically migrated volunteers and convicts to both non-Chinese lands, and the lands of the rival states for the purpose of easing supply chains and providing military recruitment. They went so far as to remodel the settlement pattern and agricultural landscape of their core region of Guanzhong2. The Han Dynasty would also plant settlers into their various peripheral regions and the Tarim Basin. One peculiarity of Chinese colonization is that it also had a tendency to move peripheral populations into it's interior on a large scale. Certainly other nations practiced using foreign peoples as garrisons and political guards and hostages; but Qin and Han moved thousands of households, if not more, into the metropolitan region of Guanzhong.


    Reforms





    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    A New Age is Inaugurated

    Every one of the six states have been exterminated, their lands reformed into commanderies under your majesty's command, you have personally toured your new domain and inscribed your will on the mountains. The unification of All Under Heaven, and the standardization of it's measures and laws are complete. A new era has dawned, the old title of Wang no longer suits he who rules All Under Heaven. Behold he who surpasses the Five Emperors, Shi Huang Di!

    This represents the historical transition from the Warring States to the Qin Dynasty. This is the bulk of the player's work in the early game, and is necessary for the creation of a unified Chinese empire. It's not just conquest, but laying the administrative, legal, and economic framework necessary for such a monumental transition.


    Requirements:


    • Absolute destruction of rival Chinese factions
    • Establishing direct bureaucratic control over their core territories (building Commandery or County level governments)
    • Faction Leader must visit and spend a season in each former capital region to proclaim their rule to the regional elite
    • You must migrate the elite population of the former capitals to your own capital region


    Results:


    • Faction Leader title is changed from "Wang" to "Huang Di"
    • Trade bonuses in Capital region from migration of elite population
    • Faction Leader can now undertake tours of the empire from the Capital for Authority and Public Order bonuses
    • Trade bonuses across all Chinese territories from standardization of laws and language
    • Construction of Mausoleum Towns enabled
    • Don't think it's smooth sailing from now! There will be mass civil disruption from sweeping changes and lingering resistance




    The New Son of Heaven


    Historically, the Qin Dynasty fell apart thanks to court infighting, mass unrest, and the Qin administration's unwillingness to cease it's relentless mobilizations. However, I don't believe Medieval II allows your faction to simulate an internal rebellion like Empire: Total War and it's Revolution mechanic. Thus I will have to assume that any route to establishing a Chinese Empire involves the successful survival of the conquering Dynasty. That having been said, it isn't outside of the realm of possibility that the Qin Dynasty would shift into something akin to the Han Dynasty's style of administration, as the Han Dynasty borrowed many things such as the law code or literal palace foundations from Qin, and had undergone several ideological shifts.


    Requirements:


    • Survive loyalist rebellions and wave of unrest, including historical rebels like Xiang Yu and Liu Bang
    • Prevent a single school of thought from gaining a supermajority (75%)


    Results:


    • Can now build Kingdoms instead of Commanderies in the most valuable (most populous, wealthy, academic, etc.) regions
    • Unrest caused by the New Age reform fades away



    Those Who Ride Horses

    Through extensive preparation and warfare with the Hu, All Under Heaven has realized that chariot forces cannot meet the demands of warfare in the vast barbarian lands. Thus, under the Son of Heaven's sage guidance, we have procured numerous horses and horsemen from the Hu and turned them to our own use. Now even if bandits seek refuge in mountain heights and wide rivers, they cannot escape the reach of our swift soldiers.


    Requirements:


    • Possess several Long Walls in Pastoral Regions outside the initial sphere of Chinese influence (existing Long Walls and currently subjugated Pastoral Regions count)
    • Fight several large battles against armies with 10+ Cavalry Units


    Results:


    • Chariot pool vastly reduced, though not removed. Chariots still saw use as mobile fortifications and artillery platforms
    • Existing pool of light cavalry vastly increased (This is not simply repurposing Chariot horses to a new arm, the historical reforms dedicated vast resources to the construction of new stables and massive expansion of horse herds available to the Son of Heaven.)




    Acquisition of the Heavenly Horse

    Our brave soldiers have punished the barbarians of the furthest Western Regions. We have truly proven that our might is beyond the comprehension of the Hu, or even those barbarians that are closer to our palette. Now even the formerly insolent Western Regions understand the awe inspiring might of Your Majesty, and eagerly offer themselves to the common good of All Under Heaven.

    Requirements:


    • Conquer a region of Central Asia (Alexandria Eschate, Baktria, Kangha, Nisaya, etc.)


    Results:


    • Trade bonuses thanks to the acquisition and trade of Heavenly Horses
    • Heavy cavalry pool increased




    An August Age

    Last reform, I promise. While the image of a centralized Han Dynasty is mostly associated with Wu Di, recent scholarship has demonstrated that even after his reign the Han Dynasty underwent further reforms to increase centralization. By the reign of Han Cheng Di, the Chinese emperor no longer needed to travel across the empire to maintain order, all the necessary rituals could be performed within the Guanzhong region. The capital itself also reached it's height in development, poems were written praising the grandeur and wealth held within even after it lost it's status as the main residence of the Han emperors. This period in time also had historical significance in that several pivotal works both during and before the Han Dynasty were archived and proliferated by the court.3


    Requirements:


    • At least a hundred years must pass from The New Son of Heaven reform, if it isn't possible to count turns from a reform then it must be anchored to the specific point in time where the Han Dynasty reached this state, around 57 BCE
    • Faction Leader must be Sharp/Charismatic/Vigorous



    Results:


    • Faction Leader's tours take less time and have less reduction to private security (Qin Shi Huangdi was nearly assassinated on one such tour,) instead of touring across the empire they can now perform the necessary ritual from the safety of the capital region
    • The proliferation of several ancient and recent works (likely as ancillaries,) historically this period saw the Shiji rise to popularity and the archiving of ancient books found in Han Dynasty tombs
    • Further trade bonuses to the capital region representing the ludicrous urbanization from hundreds of years of transplanting wealthy and influential provincials into Mausoleum Towns





    Military





    As a result of hundreds of years of ever-escalating warfare, China has developed numerous military innovations and militarization has seeped deeply into the fabric of Chinese society. Shang Yang famously reorganized the State of Qin along militarized lines, believing that States who failed to tend to Agriculture and War "will certainly be dismembered." The military forces themselves were organized from squads of five to army units of 10,000. In previous centuries the States had only recruited from their capital regions and from the well off. By 272 BCE, the Chinese bureaucracies had exhaustively taken stock of their resources and population, and now soldiers from the entire state can be called to fight. While conscripts made up the bulk of Warring States armies by far, they also made use of penal soldiers and volunteer soldiers. The State of Wei in particular made use of enlisted soldiers that could march forty kilometers in full armor, a crossbow with fifty bolts, and three days worth of rations.


    The Chinese employed a wide variety of weapons. Aside from the expected shields, spears, swords, and bows; they had a unique fondness for the crossbow and halberd, as a matter of fact, you could say they were the quintessential Chinese weapons of the era. One formula for an army of 10,000 had 6000 men wield crossbows, supposedly the Han Dynasty's Donghai arsenal held 500,000+ crossbows. The influence of the crossbow went beyond bulk and numbers, Sun Wu (famously known as Sun Tzu) compared strategic power to a drawn crossbow and the use of crossbows were often used to distinguish Chinese arms from barbarian forces. A variety of tactics were developed with the crossbow, from laying ambushes with crossbow units to developing a method of fire and advance. That's not to say bows are irrelevant, they held practical military and ritual significance in China. Bows have a mythological origin in being invented by the Yellow Emperor, and were used as ritual gifts and symbols of office by the Zhou kings. Chinese cavalry around this time were also horse archers using bows, as it isn't possible to reload a military-grade crossbow on horseback. With the prevalence of bows and crossbows, Chinese factions should be one of the most firepower-centric factions in the game, with only the Nomadic factions and Sabai being able to compete.





    On the other hand, the Chinese seemed to be rather single minded when it came to their armor. By far the most popular type of armor is lamellar, though
    one-piece arm guards and helmets have been found. Though bronze and iron armor dating to this period has been found, and numerous bronze artifacts demonstrate significant skill with metalworking, the few references to the production of armor near this period refer to cutting leather. The lamellar suits worn by the Terracotta Army also seem to be modeled after leather as well. These suits have different levels of coverage, with suits of armor that do not cover the back, the most iconic terracotta suit that covers the shoulders and entire torso, and suits for charioteers that have the most extensive coverage including cheires and hand guards.


    By the beginning of EBII's time frame, chariots were one of the primary Chinese weapon systems. The strength of a state in this period was traditionally judged by the number of chariots it possessed, and according to Chao Cuo the Han Dynasty needed to swap out their chariots for cavalry. However, cavalry was known around our time frame. King Wuling of Zhao famously adopted Hu clothing to better suit cavalry operations4; Zhang Yi refers to both a chariot arm, and a cavalry arm when describing the Qin army5; Li Mu also mobilized both chariots and cavalry to fight the Xiongnu6. Our knowledge of the use of chariots is vague, with Chinese military texts claiming that a few chariots can defeat many infantrymen, but advises them to avoid treacherous terrain. Given that a chariot crew of three has both a bowman and halberdier mounted alongside the driver, it might be that chariots are multi-purpose. As recorded in the Donghai Military Inventory and the Six Secret Teachings military text, there are also different types of chariots. They also have unique functions historically, such as dragging up a dust cloud at the Battle of Chengpu, or forming improvised defenses as advised by Sun Bin.



    Taking all this together, the Chinese way of war would form a distinct experience in Europa Barbarorum II. With their emphasis on bows and crossbows, as well as the usage of chariots which slower and clumsier than cavalry, the Chinese would likely be defensively oriented. A player would need to concern themselves with making sure their ranged units have proper defenses against sudden assaults, and would need to allow more time for their chariots to properly form up and orient themselves. But don't think they're lacking in good offensive options. The chariots are tough units, and given their high durability on an individual unit basis in the mod, will likely be vital in taking the offensive against hostile Chinese forces. The multiple melee arms deployed by a Chinese force also allows them a variety of answers against enemy soldiers, and some of your ranged units are also fully capable of fighting in melee. You also have horse archers which are some of the most swift and flexible units in the game, though it's unlikely many of them will do well in melee.

    China at this time was highly militarized, and possessed complex military science. Military texts often discuss discipline (including military drills) and the qualities of officers. Contrary to the common view of human waves (which in itself is taken too literally) and tossing peasants into meat grinders (the agrarian population was the core of most armies in history, including the famous Legiones,) the Chinese were fully capable of fielding highly trained and well equipped soldiers. That having been said, with the sheer amount of conscription employed by the Warring States, there'll be plenty of sub par units to be found.


    No matter which State they choose, the player would have much to do before they can achieve victory. Though Qin has already empowered themselves through the reforms of Shang Yang, and possess a skilled roster of generals commanding disciplined and motivated troops, topped off by the military legend Bai Qi; they are far from their ultimate victory. Whether you wish to see history through or turn it's tide, you must make use of the many powerful tools granted to you. Shake Heaven and Earth with your awesomeness, and create an empire of ten thousand years!





    References:


    • 1. http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History...hidengjue.html
    • 2. Frank Leeming, 1980. Official Landscapes in Traditional China, p.153-204 & Mark Lewis, 1990. Sanctioned Violence in Early China, p.63
    • 3. Chang'an 26 BCE: An Augustan Age in China.
    • 4. Zhan Guo Ce, 19.
    • 5. Shiji, 70.2293.
    • 6. Shiji, 81.2249-5.
    Last edited by BailianSteel; June 26, 2020 at 05:26 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Neat proposition, but least you'd do something like Takshashila (a related satelite state further East, don't think China got anything that'd apply though), I think the Maurian Empire would come first, in account of being closer.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Interesting idea.

    At least one faction could be added in the north of korea (a sort of proto-Koguryŏ kingdom) and three rebels region on the south to represent the future three confederations of Mahan, Jinhan and Byeonhan.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    Neat proposition, but least you'd do something like Takshashila (a related satelite state further East, don't think China got anything that'd apply though), I think the Maurian Empire would come first, in account of being closer.
    This isn't a game pitch or practical proposal to put China in the actual mod. As someone who dabbles in game dev I am vaguely aware of the thousands of man-hours it would take to actually make something like this, and that's assuming there's a team with the skills and dedication to work on it without a professional salary. I'm posting this in the EBII sub-forum because the idea's based off of the EBII mod. I might write something up for a completely distinct Total War later on.

    Closest thing I can think of to organically incorporating China into EBII is to make a Han Dynasty Invasion event where they try to invade Central Asia. Historically they got as far as the Ferghana Valley, which is a part of Alexandria Eschate in-game.

    I imagine fleshing out Taksashila more (even if it's just adding in names and descriptions) is somewhere in EBII's pipeline, I'm looking forward to seeing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by torf View Post
    Interesting idea.

    At least one faction could be added in the north of korea (a sort of proto-Koguryŏ kingdom) and three rebels region on the south to represent the future three confederations of Mahan, Jinhan and Byeonhan.
    Thanks. In this hypothetical East Asia mod, there'd absolutely be distinct factions for the proto-Korean and proto-Vietnamese nations. One of the more disappointing things about TW:3K is that there's no non-Chinese factions, when those were some of the biggest campaigns in the actual book.

  5. #5
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Ancient China would be great of course, but there are so many factions that are already left out of the mod (such as Syracuse) that it would be crazy to add those factions so far from the main map.

    It would be a great mod or submod.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    So many many cultures and kingdoms along the Silk Road, if only a mod could incorporate all of them...


    Although the Chinese dynasties of the era usually were in good terms with the parties holding the Westernmost parts of these routes.


    But even if a supermod of this size would be possible with this many regions... I think the biggest challenge would be to make it realistically impossible for factions to stretch too far. Player empires in TW mods can already become much bigger that it was realistically possible with the technology of the periods they cover.
    Last edited by Satapatiš; June 23, 2020 at 08:53 AM.
    Furthermore, I believe that Rome must be destroyed.




  7. #7

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    State of Qi





    Difficulty:

    Moderate. Qi starts in a position of weakness and needs to recover from their near destruction at the hands of Yan and Yue Yi. However, they have a long history of innovation and prosperity. The capital of Qi, Linzi, possesses several natural advantages. Lastly, they are one of most geographically distant States from Qin, and should have a good amount of time before Qin attempts their conquest of Qi.


    Roster:

    Vast armies in the Chinese fashion wielding a variety of melee and ranged weapons, such as the crossbow and halberd. Qi specializes in attack, and under direction of a skilled general like Sun Bin they can divide into multiple columns to attack an enemy. Yet thanks to wealth and social inequality the majority of Qi forces have comparatively low morale. They are bolstered by small number of non-Chinese auxiliaries (likely the Yi and Di in this case.) Chariots are initially one of the primary arms of the roster, but cavalry will dramatically increase after expansion to the north and west. These two, and the professional soldiery are the best trained soldiers in the State and the true measure of a State's might.


    Introduction:

    [WIP]
    Last edited by BailianSteel; June 26, 2020 at 03:32 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Quote Originally Posted by BailianSteel View Post
    Thanks. In this hypothetical East Asia mod, there'd absolutely be distinct factions for the proto-Korean and proto-Vietnamese nations. One of the more disappointing things about TW:3K is that there's no non-Chinese factions, when those were some of the biggest campaigns in the actual book.
    I'm completly agree. It's very disappointing to have no non-chinese factions on TW:3K.

    Have you planed to have a slightly larger map to add a bigger part of Japan ? Like this you could also have a proto-Wa faction of the yayoi period.

    The reconstitution of a yayoi period village :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  9. #9
    Cohors_Evocata's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    A very interesting proposal indeed. Time to mess that up.

    (Seriously, I don't mean to be a spoilsport, but I think there's two potential big issues I see with a hypothetical EB II-style mod set in East Asia in the same time period. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong)


    • Names. All the names we use for the various Chinese states, characters and such are based on modern Mandarin pronunciation of the respective characters and that problem gets even worse when trying to reconstruct the autonyms of non-Chinese people recorded in Chinese texts. For example, the nowadays rather (in)famous Yuezhi derive their name from the modern pronunciation of the characters 月氏. Wiktionary's reconstruction of their Old Chinese pronunciation becomes *ŋod-kje and even then the question remains how accurately the OC name preserves the hypothetical endonym, if at all. Consider this, but for most of the named characters in the mod (admittedly, the Chinese characters would be easier themselves)
    • Sources: I don't think we have any written sources for whatever states may have existed for most of Indochina or Japan during this period. That severely limits the geographic scope the mod can have, as I imagine archaeology alone won't tell you enough about the existence of potential factions. Yayoi-period Japan is mentioned upthread, but I don't think we have evidence for the existence of specific named states in the Japanese archipelago until the third century CE...


    Having said that, I feel it's a very big shame neither Rome 2 nor Imperator: Rome had the guts to expand their map all the way into the North China Plain. I imagine they could have used Terra Incognita to deal with the areas for which we don't have enough information and left a potential connecting route with the "conventional" world of antiquity through the Tarim Basin. Heck, Imperator's map seems set up to do that eventually...
    Last edited by Cohors_Evocata; June 25, 2020 at 04:21 PM.
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    My thanks in advance.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Quote Originally Posted by torf View Post
    I'm completly agree. It's very disappointing to have no non-chinese factions on TW:3K.

    Have you planed to have a slightly larger map to add a bigger part of Japan ? Like this you could also have a proto-Wa faction of the yayoi period.
    I'm afraid I have no real plans to make an actual mod, my hands are full for the forseeable future. I'd have no problems having the proto-Wa if the information's there (though to my limited knowledge Japan kept to itself until Himiko sent an emissary to Cao Wei.) Feel free to write a profile for the factions you want, though each civilization deserves it's own thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    A very interesting proposal indeed. Time to mess that up.

    (Seriously, I don't mean to be a spoilsport, but I think there's two potential big issues I see with a hypothetical EB II-style mod set in East Asia in the same time period. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong)


    • Names. All the names we use for the various Chinese states, characters and such are based on modern Mandarin pronunciation of the respective characters and that problem gets even worse when trying to reconstruct the autonyms of non-Chinese people recorded in Chinese texts. For example, the nowadays rather (in)famous Yuezhi derive their name from the modern pronunciation of the characters 月氏. Wiktionary's reconstruction of their Old Chinese pronunciation becomes *ŋod-kje and even then the question remains how accurately the OC name preserves the hypothetical endonym, if at all. Consider this, but for most of the named characters in the mod (admittedly, the Chinese characters would be easier themselves)
    • Sources: I don't think we have any written sources for whatever states may have existed for most of Indochina or Japan during this period. That severely limits the geographic scope the mod can have, as I imagine archaeology alone won't tell you enough about the existence of potential factions. Yayoi-period Japan is mentioned upthread, but I don't think we have evidence for the existence of specific named states in the Japanese archipelago until the third century CE...


    Having said that, I feel it's a very big shame neither Rome 2 nor Imperator: Rome had the guts to expand their map all the way into the North China Plain. I imagine they could have used Terra Incognita to deal with the areas for which we don't have enough information and left a potential connecting route with the "conventional" world of antiquity through the Tarim Basin. Heck, Imperator's map seems set up to do that eventually...
    Is this a Roman invasion of Chinese airspace? Come at me bro!



    (I couldn't find an appropriate image of the pose from a quick search, so here's an imitation.)


    Anyways, my main goal here is to distill my knowledge of Chinese history applicable to this time period, to a faction design doc. If nothing else happens aside from the thread being written, I'll be satisfied with that. The points you raised are good (and provides some historical info,) so no harm done.

    Truth be told, Old Chinese was one of my biggest writer's-blocks when I was writing the OP. I was also skeptical of Daqin/Roma meaning Great Qin. At the very least netizens that don't understand East Asian languages are probably judging it from the latinization alone, which is a mistake. I'm hoping that one day I'd learn enough Old Chinese to edit in the period-accurate names later.

    Info on larger Indochina and Japan is pretty sparse, but I believe we have enough knowledge to stretch the map down to Yunnan.


    I wouldn't be surprised if Paradox puts China in Imperator. They put all of East Asia in EU4. Though honestly I didn't like the way Ming was done in EU4. It seems like there's a pretty big wall between the companies who want Asian audiences, and the people who are passionate about Asian history and culture.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Quote Originally Posted by BailianSteel View Post
    I'm afraid I have no real plans to make an actual mod, my hands are full for the forseeable future. I'd have no problems having the proto-Wa if the information's there (though to my limited knowledge Japan kept to itself until Himiko sent an emissary to Cao Wei.) Feel free to write a profile for the factions you want, though each civilization deserves it's own thread.
    Sorry, my knowledge is limited too. The only writen source about Japan are scarses chinese sources. The main sources of information is archeology. We know that, during the EBII timeframe, hierarchical structures appears in society, and that they have contacts with Korea and China.

  12. #12
    Cohors_Evocata's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Quote Originally Posted by BailianSteel;15928942
    Is this a Roman invasion of Chinese airspace? Come at me bro!

    [IMG
    https://i.redd.it/okwcf3upd7751.jpg[/IMG]

    (I couldn't find an appropriate image of the pose from a quick search, so here's an imitation.)

    Anyways, my main goal here is to distill my knowledge of Chinese history applicable to this time period, to a faction design doc. If nothing else happens aside from the thread being written, I'll be satisfied with that. The points you raised are good (and provides some historical info,) so no harm done.

    Truth be told, Old Chinese was one of my biggest writer's-blocks when I was writing the OP. I was also skeptical of Daqin/Roma meaning Great Qin. At the very least netizens that don't understand East Asian languages are probably judging it from the latinization alone, which is a mistake. I'm hoping that one day I'd learn enough Old Chinese to edit in the period-accurate names later.

    Info on larger Indochina and Japan is pretty sparse, but I believe we have enough knowledge to stretch the map down to Yunnan.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Paradox puts China in Imperator. They put all of East Asia in EU4. Though honestly I didn't like the way Ming was done in EU4. It seems like there's a pretty big wall between the companies who want Asian audiences, and the people who are passionate about Asian history and culture.
    Do not mistake me for some cheap conjurer of Romanophilia! I have disputed the need for Lorica Segmentata many times and will continue to do so in the future!

    Yeah, I imagine you could probably go down south as far as the Red River valley and Hainan, east into North Korea and perhaps even as far as Kyushu, even if I don't think a fleshed-out faction there would be feasible (we know a state the Chinese referred to as "Na" existed in 57 CE, likely in the area around Fukuoka, and that's about it until the 3rd century). The Xiongnu in Mongolia make a fairly natural northern limit, but I have no idea what factions you could have directly to the west of Qin... in effect, roughly the ancient Sinosphere. If you wanted to include India as well, you'd stumble into the Indochina conundrum...

    Out of curiousity, what makes you doubt the Daqin interpretation? To my knowledge, it's the same character used for the Qin dynasty and Daqin, isn't it? Learning Old Chinese would be cool, but I don't think we even have a universally accepted reconstruction yet...
    Last edited by Cohors_Evocata; June 28, 2020 at 04:09 PM.
    I tend to edit my posts once or several times after writing and uploading them. Please keep this in mind when reading a recent post of mine. Also, should someone, for some unimaginable reason, wish to rep me, please add your username in the process, so I can at least know whom to be grateful towards.

    My thanks in advance.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    I'll toast to that.

    To the direct west of Qin, I believe there lies the Quanrong (or "Dog Rong" as they are called in Oriental Empires) and Qiang peoples. As far as I know they weren't in much of a position to build empires in EBII's time frame and up until the Tang era. They still posed a military threat to the historical capital region (Guanzhong) and warranted a few military expeditions from the Han. Oriental Empires places the Dingling north of the Xiongnu, but that game is pretty fuzzy with it's time scale. Han campaigns against the Xiongnu and Xianbei reached pretty far north.

    I did see that that the characters for Daqin do correspond to "Great Qin," I was skeptical for some time because at one point the sensationalist thing was to search for links between China and Greece and Rome that weren't there.

    Didn't know that there's not a universally accepted reconstruction for Old Chinese. That's a bit of a downer, but there are books that can get me started. I'll just have to source where I learnt it from and roll with what happens.

    I realize how overconfident I sound. "Oh, I'll just learn this long lost, niche language and be spitting fire poetry like a dragon." I plan on keeping this post going for the long haul, updating it over years of time.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Ancient China, EBII Style

    Braves and Worthies


    Generals


    Bai Qi (白起): This man needs no introduction, Bai Qi is one of China's greatest generals and most notorious mass murderers. The recorded amount of people killed by Bai Qi numbers 790,000 in his most famous battles alone, causing revulsion and skepticism for over a thousand years. His actual military feats are undeniably impressive. Within his first year of service, he defeated a joint army of Han and Wei at Yique, supposedly claiming 240,000 heads, 5 cities, and a hostage in Gongsun Xi. From this, he jumped from the 12th rank to the 16th rank within a few years. Over a decade later, he claimed the capital of Chu and forced it's king into flight, incorporating the region into the growing Qin power as a Commandery. From this, he claimed a lordship, one of the highest honors of ancient Chinese society. By the time EBII starts, he's already a top candidate for world's greatest general. Having served for two decades he is likely at the pinnacle of experience, and is at the very least a skilled besieger, having spent a good chunk of his service claiming cities. Bai Qi was also appointed supreme commander fairly early in his career, and that Qin went from strength to strength in this period should demonstrate Bai Qi's skills. Of course, his career was not remotely done by 272 BCE, a decade later he would commit his most infamous act at the massacre of Changping. Now leaving aside the questionable figure of 400,000 people being buried alive, the State of Zhao was clearly weakened by this defeat, as they suffered several attacks afterwards. Bai Qi sought to destroy Zhao outright after Changping, and five years later they were attacked by the State of Yan seeking to exploit their losses at Changping.1 Widely regarded as one China's greatest generals, Bai Qi would be a beast on EBII's battlefields.


    References:

    1 https://classical-chinese.blogspot.c...o-and-lin.html
    (CTRL+F, then type in "Li Fu")

    https://classical-chinese.blogspot.c...f-qin-was.html
    (CTRL + F, then type in "Bai Qi")

    http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History...sonsbaiqi.html


    Lian Po:


    Li Mu:


    Tian Dan:


    Yue Yi:


    Administrators/Philosophers



    Royalty/Nobility


    Prince Wuji of Wei:

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