098 teaser: ROADS - some overhaul + ideas for future

[Jurand of Cracow]

Guys,
While working on the steppes and Grasslands buildings certain thoughts came to my mind concerning roads and their possible modifications. I’ve translated them into a following overhaul project:

• Three levels of roads are kept in game since they’re partially hardcoded. However, the use of roads will be extended, especially for the third level (currently it is buildable only by the ERE).
• Names: instead of Dirt Roads – Paved Roads – Highways, there’ll be:
  
  • Dirt Roads – Gravel Roads – Paved Roads
  
  
• Availability (see the map):
  
  • Dirt Roads – can be built everywhere.
  • Gravel Roads – cannot be built in the deep steppes, in the deserts and in the northern forests.
  • Paved Roads – can be built only in certain provinces that are either conducive to such projects or had some highways in the (Roman) past. “Paved” might be a slightly misleading adjective but it gives the gist of some work done to make them a bit more durable (propose other adjective, it you think something is better).
  
  
• Conditions for building them:
  
  • Dirt Roads – each basic settlement (perhaps from the level of a town?), each faction. Takes some time to build but cost very little.
  • Gravel Roads – population > 1500/2000 (large town / castle). Logging camp is required. Not compatible with upper level of nomadic herds.
  • Paved Roads – population > 12500/15000 (minor city / fortress). Stonemason is required. Not compatible with grasslands.
  
  
• Effects: Dirt Roads will have only the hardcoded effects, while upper levels will additionally impact on trade.
• Technically:
  
  • Provinces get new hidden resources “gravel_roads” and “paved_roads” (descr_region.txt and EDB) / or maybe "steppes" (instead of HR cumans), "deep_forests" (might be useful also for other purposes), "paved_roads"
  • Conditions with hidden resources in EDB are added, while other requirements lowered.
  • Textual changes are made.
  • Pics and icons are possibly adjusted.
  • The visuals on the map stay the same (unless some modder of the graphics would make a submod – I’m pleading for help!), while pic info should be changed.
  • The changes in the initial situations (descr_strat.txt) are made.

EDIT: some of the changes are included in the ver. 098. Paved Roads are still only for the Byzantines, though, and there's no such a neet distinction as shown in the map. To be modded in the future.

[officialdeo]

While this sounds interesting, it seems to favour the highly packed settlements in Western and Central Europe. I currently don't even bother building roads since the benefits are minuscule compared to investing on naval power for coastal factions.

[Jurand of Cracow]

While this sounds interesting, it seems to favour the highly packed settlements in Western and Central Europe. I currently don't even bother building roads since the benefits are minuscule compared to investing on naval power for coastal factions.

It's partly true. This is also to provide the historical flow of history: Europe started with very low level of urbanization (1,2% iirc), while the Muslim-ruled world (plus some other parts, like Byzantium) had it much higher (5%). Then the urbanization was much faster in Europe than elsewhere.
So in the SSHIP we've got big cities in the Muslim world + and very small cities in Europe, but bigger potential is on the European side.
For a article on this subject see this book.

And I hope that the benefits of the roads (I plan to move some +population from the walls to the roads) will make them attractive to build.

[Just let me post]

And I hope that the benefits of the roads (I plan to move some +population from the walls to the roads) will make them attractive to build.

I would add another benefit to increase the incentive - how about roads reducing future building times? (by 10-20%?)

It could be justified by materials being easier to transport and engineer specialists having easier access to the area. Roads have really long build times so that would be a great payoff.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I don't think any further bonus is needed. I find the opinion of officialdeo quite rare, as the roads are usually regarded as providing great benefits for the faction and are the first to be built.
Furthermore, this is a kind of circular logic: given that every province will have roads, we need to accommodate it in setting the building times for all buildings up the building chains.

[Belovèse]

While this sounds interesting, it seems to favour the highly packed settlements in Western and Central Europe. I currently don't even bother building roads since the benefits are minuscule compared to investing on naval power for coastal factions.

Would it be possible to reflect the different organisations of different coutry by traits? for exemple arabic generals could get a "familiar with desert" or something trait, giving movement bonus. This could make harder to invade in terrains your civilisation is not used to, like invading deserts or slavic countries with huge plains. Maybe depending on upbringing, so the triger would fire at the coming of age?
This way the high level of road would be double-edged: invading armies also profit from them, but if you invade russian plain you're on your own (multiple exemple inhistory!).

Another idea: is it possible to give a bonus for moving along water, like in Civilization? I know all river were not navigable, but it could be tied to river ports or something else

[Jurand of Cracow]

Would it be possible to reflect the different organisations of different coutry by traits? for exemple arabic generals could get a "familiar with desert" or something trait, giving movement bonus. This could make harder to invade in terrains your civilisation is not used to, like invading deserts or slavic countries with huge plains. Maybe depending on upbringing, so the triger would fire at the coming of age?
This way the high level of road would be double-edged: invading armies also profit from them, but if you invade russian plain you're on your own (multiple exemple inhistory!).

Another idea: is it possible to give a bonus for moving along water, like in Civilization? I know all river were not navigable, but it could be tied to river ports or something else

Yes, it's possible to play with the traits.

Bonus along the river: in the HURB there was one, but I find it not convincing for the whole armies, especially that it worked to move in any direction, accros the mountains etc.
On the other hand, the rivers could be navigable but this would require changing the whole map and is equally unconvincing, imo.

[Belovèse]

Yes, it's possible to play with the traits.

Bonus along the river: in the HURB there was one, but I find it not convincing for the whole armies, especially that it worked to move in any direction, accros the mountains etc.
On the other hand, the rivers could be navigable but this would require changing the whole map and is equally unconvincing, imo.

Thanks, maybe I'll try a mini-mod after polishing my program. Just to be sure: does the army recognize the type of terrain it is on in the strategic map at all times, or would it be something with hidden resources and triggers? Anyway I'll look into it later.

For the rivers I agree with you, after reflection.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thanks, maybe I'll try a mini-mod after polishing my program. Just to be sure: does the army recognize the type of terrain it is on in the strategic map at all times, or would it be something with hidden resources and triggers? Anyway I'll look into it later.

I actually don't know. The HURB increases the movement through EDCT + hidden resources (perhaps with the script.txt help).

[Cephalophore]

There are places where people still drive on Roman roads apparently. I would imagine that in the middle ages many such roads were not in total disrepair. However, I am not learned in the histories of travel. The Sassanian Empire likely had roads too. Northern and Eastern Europe would be traversing along rivers, I suspect. The Normans, Rus, Slavs, etc got around...Roman Roads..

Images are from DARMC at Harvard's website.

[Elendil 03]

The approach is very reasonable. However, in the Middle Ages the trade routes were still quite different than in Antiquity. I suggest you use this map as a base. Roads should also not be the only way of representing overland trade. For example, I imagine Morocco, central Anatolia and Persia had similarly well-kept transportation networks, so there, an improved caravanserai building with effects similar to those of roads would make sense. And river ports on the Rhine, Danube, Dniepr, Volga, Nile and Euphrates should be upgradeable.

[Just let me post]

Hm, I admit it's true for the first two levels of roads.

However the third level (current Highways/future Paved roads) is 25 whole turns for not that much. -5% or -10% decreased built time bonus wouldn't hurt imho, plus these roads wouldn't be everywhere, so wouldn't hurt overall building meta much I think.

[j.a.luna]

Hello Jurand, your ideas and improvements in sship are so great! The idea for improve roads is logical and more inmersive for the game but in my opinion also would be good improve other "transport-related buildings "such as the caravensari for the desert areas and its last level of the silk road, and the river ports as Elendil said...

About your map for paved roads i know that in Spain the settlement of Badajoz also should have pave roads( Roman legacy) due to the famous roman road of the "Silver route", here the link for the information about this.
https://love2fly.iberia.com/2018/01/...-silver-route/

Thank for your hard and historical work!

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hi j.a., nice seeing you again!
I've got some ideas of improving the other builidings as well. But we'll need a 2D grapher to help with the pics for the info cards and icons. Eg. the Grassland chain is now with placeholder info cards' pics.
As usually with the games, it's the question what we want to convey as "paved roads". It's not just a road, but a network of them. But the Middle Ages was quite different from the Roman times as far as the roads and trade is concerned.
My knowledge of Badajoz province may concern the later times, but, in all respect, this was a really backwater province for centuries. Mountainous and relatively little populated. I don't think something like paved roads would be held there.

[j.a.luna]

Hi j.a., nice seeing you again!
I've got some ideas of improving the other builidings as well. But we'll need a 2D grapher to help with the pics for the info cards and icons. Eg. the Grassland chain is now with placeholder info cards' pics.
As usually with the games, it's the question what we want to convey as "paved roads". It's not just a road, but a network of them. But the Middle Ages was quite different from the Roman times as far as the roads and trade is concerned.
My knowledge of Badajoz province may concern the later times, but, in all respect, this was a really backwater province for centuries. Mountainous and relatively little populated. I don't think something like paved roads would be held there.

And for the placeholder info pics is possible add pictures or photos/images from internet or other mods?( As rome 1, Broken Crescent...) You would save more time and work.
About Badajoz maybe you are right, the middle ages was different from the Roman era, so those old roads could have worn down or dissipated and even disappeared. What is true is that the silver route was a very important route in Spain and even today It continues to be a highway.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hi Guys,
I occasionally come back to the idea of moding the road. In the TGC mod I've noticed a good naming for the intermediate level: Gravel roads.
So I've changed for 098 naming: Dirt Roads - Gravel Roads - Paved Roads. I think it's a better naming for the period.
At some point in the future I hope the TGC would allow use (some of) their assets so also the icon would be changed (they've already made that one).
As far as I know, in the Med2 engine we can have only three tiers of roads, so it will stay like this. The rest of the changes may be introduced in the future.
JoC

[AnthoniusII]

Hi Guys,
I occasionally come back to the idea of moding the road. In the TGC mod I've noticed a good naming for the intermediate level: Gravel roads.
So I've changed for 098 naming: Dirt Roads - Gravel Roads - Paved Roads. I think it's a better naming for the period.
At some point in the future I hope the TGC would allow use (some of) their assets so also the icon would be changed (they've already made that one).
As far as I know, in the Med2 engine we can have only three tiers of roads, so it will stay like this. The rest of the changes may be introduced in the future.
JoC

What assets? We have dirt roads from the start in all regions because people traveled for centuries...All factions can build paved roads exept Steppe ones. The only "unique" building is the pre-placed extra wide paved roads from Dyrachion to Constantinople as Via Egnatia and the main anatolikon road from Conntastinople ro Antiochea. Nottice that Tarsos and Antiochea belobg to Abbasids when TGC starts.

[RodriguesSting]

Just for the record navigable rivers will open a whole can of worms. Look at DAC and the Anduim problem.

That said a movement bonus from a fluvial infrastructure sounds really reasonable. Don't interpret it as the entire army sailing down river but rather the entire logistics and supply being optimized in the area due to the extensive usage of rivers for commercial and military shipping.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Just for the record navigable rivers will open a whole can of worms. Look at DAC and the Anduim problem.

That said a movement bonus from a fluvial infrastructure sounds really reasonable. Don't interpret it as the entire army sailing down river but rather the entire logistics and supply being optimized in the area due to the extensive usage of rivers for commercial and military shipping.

I don't think there's any plan to make the rivers navigable. Even a trait boosting movement (as it exists in HURB) is unlikely.
The rivers impact on fertility of farms and availability of an additional building: River Ports.

[VINC.XXIII]

Hi Guys,
As far as I know, in the Med2 engine we can have only three tiers of roads, so it will stay like this. The rest of the changes may be introduced in the future.
JoC

Sad, I worked on ancient roads in my region, its a fascinating subject but I will spare you the details, to summarize we still had paved roads, which were kept being built, but due to political fracturation no project like building a coherent 200 km paved route could be decided. As such you could divide the levels in more than 5 and It would follow centralization of power(under king of France or an appanagist). The roads reaching a modern standard of coherence way out of MTW2 time-frame, ofc.

Meanwhile, during feudal times, kings, bishops, cities, lords, kinda compensated their frustrations with new and monumental brigdes


To name a few Albi(150 meters, quite early like circa 1000), Poissy(400 meters, Philippe Augustus-Louis IX reigns, fortified, destroyed...but you can jugde how wholesome it was from 19th century pictures, as such, many were built between 1000 and circa 1250 but were renovated all way through centuries til now), Avignon(XII-XIIIth centuries). The latter was covered by french CNRS, they made a 3D thing about it.

While this brigde was too narrow to allow chariots to go like on modern 4-ways brigdes, it still allowed to tax more efficiently the waterway traffic. From this you understand better why despite looking modest by modern standards, brigdes were important back then.

https://vimeo.com/174343310

The best conserved brigde in France, I think, XIVth century, near Cahors.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: