The Decline Of The United States of America

[Exarch]

I have read few things that have demonstrated a greater lack of understanding of US society than "Social mores are dictated by the government". If you read my responses to Cope you will see my points about how Americans are more free to believe unofficial narratives than any other time I am aware of. We Americans can literally go shopping for our narratives.

But social mores are dictated by the government via regulators and the education departments; they decide what gets shown on media and what gets approved to air.

Only a decade ago homosexuality was openly mocked on US media and ppl coming out was still a big thing despite the political correctness of the 90s; if i recall, this was humorously demonstrated in the first 21 Jump St film- or how you could mock someone and say "that's so gay!!" even as recent as 2010.
You can't do the anymore because the social mores have changed thanks to the regulators and media who are themselves dictated by the USG Elites. You're really not as free as you think.

Not so sure on that I think we are a bit deluded in America by the nostalgia of the Cold war and what it both papered over in that present to present a unified USA to the USSR and how it glossed over much of us history to make it seem so such a group effort -...e

Exactly, there's a positive portrayal and marketing image of US life that is geared for the outside and/or to keep the population docile and safe not unlike say Bollywood films that always show a upper middle class life whilst the rest of india is mired in poverty and slums.

What's changed these past few years is really the culmination of all those years of US government waste and excesses of its Elites going as far back as 2008 with the GFC when the US Elites were bailed out but the american ppl were stiffed;

AMERICA IS HAVING A MORAL CONVULSION

Levels of trust in this country—in our institutions, in our politics, and in one another—are in precipitous decline. And when social trust collapses, nations fail. Can we get it back before it’s too late?

Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...merica/616581/

Small wonder so many Americans were prepared to storm the capitol on Jan. 6th

[EmperorBatman999]

The journalists and contributors for The Atlantic are the biggest drama queens in American publishing. They hardly write news but over-exaggerated OpEds, they get their readership from their stewing pit of hyperbole and pessimism they cloak in pseudo-intellectualism.

[conon394]

Exactly, there's a positive portrayal and marketing image of US life that is geared for the outside and/or to keep the population docile and safe not unlike say Bollywood films that always show a upper middle class life whilst the rest of india is mired in poverty and slums.

You missed the point is America has never particular docile nor comfortable and has teetered or tipped of the rails quite often in big an small ways. Its message has always been creative chaos really and it works mostly some times. Its not China nor Europe. RE Bollywood: Last I checked you can find a as many American movies showing the same.

[Exarch]

The journalists and contributors for The Atlantic are the biggest drama queens in American publishing. They hardly write news but over-exaggerated OpEds, they get their readership from their stewing pit of hyperbole and pessimism they cloak in pseudo-intellectualism.

Considering that the entirety of the american press tend to hail from privileged upper middle class white liberal america, is it any wonder that the quality has fallen as far as it has?
No different to the effete and unmanly and christian Roman nobility.
Only today, it is effete, unmanly and of the new religion of BLM or 'woke-ism'.

You missed the point is America has never particular docile nor comfortable and has teetered or tipped of the rails quite often in big an small ways. Its message has always been creative chaos really and it works mostly some times. Its not China nor Europe. RE Bollywood: Last I checked you can find a as many American movies showing the same.

America could only really keep its ppl together if there were enough "gibs" ie enough resources and booty stolen from imperial wars overseas to keep them docile.

In a way, you could say that even without contenders like China, the end of the era of cheap oil meant the decline of the United States anyhow; america only works if there's cheap energy and an excess of resources for its ppl; when it doesn't, that's when things are going to get real ugly real fast.

Couple that with infrastructure decay from corruption and lead pipes causing brain damage



or call it climate change and God's disfavour, and it's clear the decline of the United States.

[conon394]

Considering that the entirety of the american press tend to hail from privileged upper middle class white liberal america, is it any wonder that the quality has fallen as far as it has?
No different to the effete and unmanly and christian Roman nobility.
Only today, it is effete, unmanly and of the new religion of BLM or 'woke-ism'.

I thought you were using citations like an academic paper. So first some citations for upper middle class what do you mean. Than of course racial breakdowns. And than any sources of where the majority of US media/press come would be nice.

No different to the effete and unmanly and christian Roman nobility.

Another non real reference to Rome that has basis in fact or references.

[chriscase]

Please note: If you make a claim which is subsequently challenged by your interlocutors, and you are unable to provide proper sourcing or justification for the claim, the appropriate action is to withdraw the claim and acknowledge it is not supported.

[Exarch]

I thought you were using citations like an academic paper. So first some citations for upper middle class what do you mean. Than of course racial breakdowns. And than any sources of where the majority of US media/press come would be nice. .

Look with your eyes, exhibit A, an out of touch NTY journalist displays his crass 'let them eat cake' attitude by getting angry that Target are refusing to allow mobs of the new religion of BLM to ransack their stores:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/30/b...-closings.html

Now please address the Atlantic article regarding the moral convulsion of America.

Another non real reference to Rome that has basis in fact or references

Negative, it is very appropriate considering how much America and its founding fathers wanted to emulate ancient Rome, down to copying the senate structure and building facades. It reminds me of the Ghiscari from Game of Thrones.

EDIT:
Secondly, the decline of the United States is also demonstrated by the failure in caring for its most vulnerable citizens, especially the elderly as the country swelters in undying heat:

Hundreds believed dead in heat wave in U.S. and Canada despite efforts to help

Source: https://news.cgtn.com/news/2021-07-0...aGs/index.html

Apparently the ruling class were using smart meters to adjust peoples' thermostats so as not to use too much power.

If the ruling class of the United States are resorting to sacrificing the elderly just to keep the lights on, can it be argued otherwise, that the United States is in decline? And not just morally, neither!

[conon394]

Negative, it is very appropriate considering how much America and its founding fathers wanted to emulate ancient Rome, down to copying the senate structure and building facades

Sort most Europe as well for you like ever. But the point was I failing to see evidence of "effete and unmanly and christian Roman nobility" A paper, a survey? And no Gibbon is not acceptable evidence.

Secondly, the decline of the United States is also demonstrated by the failure in caring for its most vulnerable citizens, especially the elderly as the country swelters in undying heat:

Yep nobody in China ever suffers in large adverse weather events. They did in 1936 and 1980 you want pick one of those for decline or stick with the current one.

[EmperorBatman999]

Yes, many of the Founders looked up to Rome, but the actual inspiration for America’s political structure was a combination of traditions dating back to the Anglo-Saxons and codified into British law, and the innovation of the political philosophers like John Locke, the Baron de Montesquieu, and Jean-Jacques Rousseau. While the early Romans were placed as an ideal, America’s political leaders sought to do more than make a direct repeat of Rome, and that meant being keenly aware of the newest and best ideas of their age, and by keeping in mind what worked for them as British subjects.

[Exarch]

Yes, many of the Founders looked up to Rome, but the actual inspiration for America’s political structure was a combination of traditions dating back to the Anglo-Saxons and codified into British law, and the innovation of the political philosophers like John Locke, the Baron de Montesquieu, and Jean-Jacques Rousseau. While the early Romans were placed as an ideal, America’s political leaders sought to do more than make a direct repeat of Rome, and that meant being keenly aware of the newest and best ideas of their age, and by keeping in mind what worked for them as British subjects.

The irony is that the ancestors of these Founding Fathers would have themselves been the Celts, Goths and Britons who warred with Rome and were enslaved by Romans and looked down upon by Romans as Uncultured Barbarians. This is exactly why i compared these Americans to the Ghiscari in Game of Thrones: a conquered people emulating and aping their conquerors for prestige.

america itself is an artificial state attempting to create a nation state founded on Liberty and Equality yet failing to do so since it cannot come to terms with its white anglo supremacist nature, and especially since its ruling class are like William Randolph Hearst in attempting to ape European nobility to say nothing of the inability to competently run a nation.

@Conon
You have yet to address my earlier article:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...merica/616581/

Please either address the argument with proof or accept that you have nothing and concede your position.

EDIT:

The decline of the United States economically is going to provide fodder for the growth of american socialism:



If the american oligarchs refuse to concede wealth and resources then there will be Revolution.

Secondly, the growing investment into Chinese Yuan means less money going into US debt, meaning the US is going to have to raise interest rates to compete with Chinese bonds.
Guess we now know why Biden and Blinken were so desperate for a meeting with President Xi

[conon394]

Really David Brooks.

Wait is he going to tell me the wold is flat and its the end of history based a conversation with a friking taxi driver again....

Defend Using David Brooks as a credible source. His predictions are more or less mostly wrong. He a hack.

"The Baby Boomers grew up in the 1950s and ’60s, an era of family stability, widespread prosperity"

You know it takes a privileged white male of David Brooks age to write that dreck without it to be meant to be sarcastic. A white male who attended first a private school and than his parents moved to at 12 one of top best public schools in Pennsylvania that I pretty sure was absoultly white when he attended and the neighborhood (in remains very very white). Yep it easy to see social cohesion from that view. I doubt he ever got that summer internship picking lettuce at the Texas boarder back than. Watch the Andy Griffith show much - easy to see social stability when the town is all white and no industry is busting unions, no dark people are being bused in and the cops are not acting like an occupying army.

But OK you didn't warn me he does do I met this women in Russia and now I can blather on.

Great so White males in 50/60s felt we had a unified culture based on an amazing situation - the relative decline WW2 imposed on everyone else + plus than the Communist block taking itself to its own private Idaho (and doing it poorly re Mao). And if like Brooks you grew up never seeing a black man or a union striker being replaced by a scab or sitting humiliatingly as day laborer to wait for a truck to pick you up or the girl in steno pool pressured to provide sex to her boss. Also re voter suppression I mean if mostly just White men vote things seem cool to them.

That is about all I have to say to Brooks fantasy world. If he had honestly even talked about the 50/60s or set his net back to the founding I would waste more of my time. Find me a commentator and not white hagiography about white privilege in the US when he grew up in a privileged family and dissent was suppressed and maybe I'll be interested.

[EmperorBatman999]

The irony is that the ancestors of these Founding Fathers would have themselves been the Celts, Goths and Britons who warred with Rome and were enslaved by Romans and looked down upon by Romans as Uncultured Barbarians. This is exactly why i compared these Americans to the Ghiscari in Game of Thrones: a conquered people emulating and aping their conquerors for prestige.

america itself is an artificial state attempting to create a nation state founded on Liberty and Equality yet failing to do so since it cannot come to terms with its white anglo supremacist nature, and especially since its ruling class are like William Randolph Hearst in attempting to ape European nobility to say nothing of the inability to competently run a nation.

Huh? This ethnic argument makes no sense and doesn’t stand to historical scrutiny. First, Celts and Britons are one and the same, with the Britons being only the subsection of the Celts living in the British Isles. Secondly, Britain’s political system and culturally identity stems from the Anglo-Saxons, who conquered the remainder of Roman Britain, rather than bring themselves a conquered people. Even after the Norse and Normans invaded Britain during the early Middle Ages, the Saxon political system remained remarkably intact, with the Norman lords embracing English Common Law rather than importing Roman Law from the continent. Institutions like a jury of peers during legal trials is one of the most recognizable aspects of this tradition.

Actually, you could make a similar comparison to China: the Yuan and Qing had to embrace Han Chinese traditions and ceremony, rather than imposing the traditions of the Mongols or Manchus.

Furthermore, the English never really identified with the Celtic history of the British Isles, indicated by the long history of warfare between the English and the Celtic Welsh, Irish, and Scots. On the other hand, I’ve read arguments that the Scots benefited from identifying with the English and adopting the language and culture of those who had really effectively conquered them and merged with them in political union. At the start of the 18th century, Scotland was one of the poorest and most underdeveloped places in Europe, but after Scottish political and cultural leaders came to adopt English ways, the Scots unlocked their fullest potential to create some of the most gifted scientists, writers, national leaders, and soldiers in the entire British Empire.

I know you like to use the example of W.R. Hearst, but his era ended half a century ago, and I don’t think we’ve seen something so grandiose and ostentatious since him. If anything, his life is best remembered through its critique in the film Citizen Kane, and his “castle” is seen only as an example of pride and hubris. Meanwhile the closest thing to the landed aristocracy of Europe, the southern planter class, no longer exists due to the dismantling of slavery and industrialization.

[Exarch]

Really David Brooks.

Wait is he going to tell me the wold is flat and its the end of history based a conversation with a friking taxi driver again....

Defend Using David Brooks as a credible source. His predictions are more or less mostly wrong. He a hack.

"The Baby Boomers grew up in the 1950s and ’60s, an era of family stability, widespread prosperity"

You know it takes a privileged white male of David Brooks age to write that dreck without it to be meant to be sarcastic. A white male who attended first a private school and than his parents moved to at 12 one of top best public schools in Pennsylvania that I pretty sure was absoultly white when he attended and the neighborhood (in remains very very white). Yep it easy to see social cohesion from that view. I doubt he ever got that summer internship picking lettuce at the Texas boarder back than. Watch the Andy Griffith show much - easy to see social stability when the town is all white and no industry is busting unions, no dark people are being bused in and the cops are not acting like an occupying army.

But OK you didn't warn me he does do I met this women in Russia and now I can blather on.

Great so White males in 50/60s felt we had a unified culture based on an amazing situation - the relative decline WW2 imposed on everyone else + plus than the Communist block taking itself to its own private Idaho (and doing it poorly re Mao). And if like Brooks you grew up never seeing a black man or a union striker being replaced by a scab or sitting humiliatingly as day laborer to wait for a truck to pick you up or the girl in steno pool pressured to provide sex to her boss. Also re voter suppression I mean if mostly just White men vote things seem cool to them.

That is about all I have to say to Brooks fantasy world. If he had honestly even talked about the 50/60s or set his net back to the founding I would waste more of my time. Find me a commentator and not white hagiography about white privilege in the US when he grew up in a privileged family and dissent was suppressed and maybe I'll be interested.

Effectively by exhibiting your distaste for the privileged white journalistic elite ie the North Easter/New Englander types who go to the same school and end up nepotistically helping each other out in the media world, you've just demonstrated how out of touch these upper class elites really are.

How many of these journalists are Jimmy Dore or Max Blumenthal? Honest journalists willing to risk life, limb and reputation for the truth? What you do have are government stenographers who benefit from selling out for the truth because they themselves identify with the same ruling class elites of America. Case eg The Young turks and the massive crap they're in for being hilary clinton propagandists and who tried to go after jimmy Dore and Aaron Mate.

Or you take the 'let them eat cake' attitude that government stenographer matthew yglesias had where he advocated america import a billion more africans and coloureds to compete with China, little realising that China's strength doesn't come from its number, but from the Communist Party of China. What Yglesias would have gotten would have been america as another India or Brazil, favelas and all.

(come to think of it, Yglesias physically resembles the typical northeastern liberal journalist: low T, neckbeard, begs for sex from his wife and has to sit disappointed as his wife's boyfriend comes over and rails her)

Huh? This ethnic argument makes no sense and doesn’t stand to historical scrutiny. First, Celts and Britons are one and the same, with the Britons being only the subsection of the Celts living in the British Isles. Secondly, Britain’s political system and culturally identity stems from the Anglo-Saxons, who conquered the remainder of Roman Britain, rather than bring themselves a conquered people. Even after the Norse and Normans invaded Britain during the early Middle Ages, the Saxon political system remained remarkably intact, with the Norman lords embracing English Common Law rather than importing Roman Law from the continent. Institutions like a jury of peers during legal trials is one of the most recognizable aspects of this tradition.

Actually, you could make a similar comparison to China: the Yuan and Qing had to embrace Han Chinese traditions and ceremony, rather than imposing the traditions of the Mongols or Manchus.

The Yuan were a mongol occupation force which became sinocised under Kublai Khan but still enforced a caste system which discriminated against Han Chinese, which was one of the reasons the Yuan are amongst the shortest lived Dynasties in China's history; the Qing (Manchu) on the other hand successfully integrated steppe culture with Han culture which is the reason Manchus today more commonly identify as a Han subgroup as opposed to mongolians as well as the fact that the Qing could only succeed with the aid of Han warlords who turned their cloaks. Eventually the Qing would decline much as the Americans are declining today- with arrogance about their place in the world- and even compromising the nation for selfish purposes eg CiXi infamously using the naval funds for her own palace buildings.

Finally, you have the trauma of the Century of Humiliation which shook Chinese ppl to the core and made them re-assess and re-examine every aspect of their culture and civilisation, discarding the outdated and retaining the useful and reforging that with ideas and science from the West. This is why China of today- or rather, the CPC- like the Qing initially-successfully merged both worlds to succeed to where it is today.

In the case of America, america's leaders are taking the mongol route where anglos are the topmost caste and other european nations below them and everyone else who isn't white european are below them and simply have to accept that Chain of Being. Racial supremacy is at the core of US culture and it is tearing the nation apart. Unless America experiences its own Century of Humiliation or some equivalent traumatising historical event which forces every american to reassess themselves, what they know about the world et al, America will not remain a contiguous nationstate before the end of this century.

Look at this for eg:

A Fourth of July Symbol of Unity That May No Longer Unite

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/03/n...arization.html

Furthermore, the English never really identified with the Celtic history of the British Isles, indicated by the long history of warfare between the English and the Celtic Welsh, Irish, and Scots. On the other hand, I’ve read arguments that the Scots benefited from identifying with the English and adopting the language and culture of those who had really effectively conquered them and merged with them in political union. At the start of the 18th century, Scotland was one of the poorest and most underdeveloped places in Europe, but after Scottish political and cultural leaders came to adopt English ways, the Scots unlocked their fullest potential to create some of the most gifted scientists, writers, national leaders, and soldiers in the entire British Empire.

About languages, i would still say that America still resembles the Ghiscari as the Ghiscari in ASOIAF spoke Valyrian, the language of their conquerors and dint know their own Ghiscari glyphs; outside of the Vatican, how many ppl speak latin conversationally or use latin script or Roman numerals outside of official capacity?
I can pick up a text from the Han Dynasty and read a Classical Chinese text and whilst it would sound poetic and flowery much as Shakespearean english sounds poetic, flowery and verbose, i would still recognise the characters and the intent of the author. Most Chinese ppl today can do the same as well. I'd hazard a guess very, very few Britons or Scots today would understand runes, but at least the Irish are bringing back Gaelic.

Looking even at how the white anglo supremacists cite ancient Rome and Greece, well the Greeks got everything from the African Egyptians:


and as Dr Stewart noted, this myth that the Greeks came up with everything and the white europeans got everything from the Greeks came about to justify white european supremacist racism. In effect, no different to the Ghiscari from ASOIAF as Martin himself likened the Ghiscari to the antebellum myth of an idyllic South.

I know you like to use the example of W.R. Hearst, but his era ended half a century ago, and I don’t think we’ve seen something so grandiose and ostentatious since him. If anything, his life is best remembered through its critique in the film Citizen Kane, and his “castle” is seen only as an example of pride and hubris. Meanwhile the closest thing to the landed aristocracy of Europe, the southern planter class, no longer exists due to the dismantling of slavery and industrialization.

Hearst exemplifies the white american ruling class, his castle was and is tacky and he'll always be remembered for being synonymous with yellow jouranlism- even today; look at how much Trump supporters tried to portray his family as a dynasty, likening Ivanka Trump to a European princess and look at how prissy US ambassadors get when they demand vassals bend the knee to them:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[conon394]

and as Dr Stewart noted, this myth that the Greeks came up with everything and the white europeans got everything from the Greeks came about to justify white european supremacist racism. In effect, no different to the Ghiscari from ASOIAF as Martin himself likened the Ghiscari to the antebellum myth of an idyllic South.

Err they did not never trust a PhD in mathamatics drifting a bit too far out of his field into stuff he don't know. Critically you know the Egyptian elite (under the Persian boot) were quite happy to tell tourists like Herodotus a lot cool sounding stuff. Probably made them feel a little better about that loosing to Persia thing.

[Exarch]

The decline of the United States, its stagflation, the rising COVID indian strains and now....Russia cuts USD reserves to ZERO.

Russia’s sovereign wealth fund cuts US dollar reserves to ZERO

Source: https://www.rt.com/business/528563-r...itches-dollar/

Notably, shares of Chinese yuan and euros have increased.

[conon394]

The decline of the United States, its stagflation, the rising COVID indian strains and now....Russia cuts USD reserves to ZERO.


Source: https://www.rt.com/business/528563-r...itches-dollar/

Notably, shares of Chinese yuan and euros have increased.

Gasp however will the US survive the actions of an economy only a tiny bit bigger than Australia.

[Knight of Heaven]

As i see it, the problem isn't in the decline of America. The problem is in the rise of China, and potentially the rise and prevalence of similar social political models around the world.

[The spartan]

People are getting frustrated with Democratic systems that they keep jumping on, harder and harder, but doesn't move their political situation in the direction they want it to go. Anti-democratic values are on the rise as the single-party state looks all the more appealing as they don't have to deal with all this "opposition" BS. If anything it speaks to how effective China is at censoring the news that escapes their nation to give people the impression that a single-party state is anything other than a garbage form of government.

[Exarch]

As i see it, the problem isn't in the decline of America. The problem is in the rise of China, and potentially the rise and prevalence of similar social political models around the world.

It's only a problem if you're a white anglo elite who's now under pressure to perform and deliver better results to the american people.

China with its towering skyscrapers, spaceships and advanced tech acts as an alternative that other nations and peoples can turn towards and away from the apartheid white united states.

People are getting frustrated with Democratic systems that they keep jumping on, harder and harder, but doesn't move their political situation in the direction they want it to go. Anti-democratic values are on the rise as the single-party state looks all the more appealing as they don't have to deal with all this "opposition" BS. If anything it speaks to how effective China is at censoring the news that escapes their nation to give people the impression that a single-party state is anything other than a garbage form of government.

You have it backwards, the USG failed to perform, failed to deliver results to its people whereas the Chinese expect and get leaders who are competent and decisive.

The US- indeed any white anglo liberal democracy- is actually a feudal apartheid oligarchy, otherwise ppl would not get so frustrated with democratic systems that go nowhere and simply change the facade of leadership rather than actual change.

[conon394]

You have it backwards, the USG failed to perform, failed to deliver results to its people whereas the Chinese expect and get leaders who are competent and decisive.

Competent and decisive just push the poverty rate down at locked in 2011 levels of Somalia to make it vanish.

rather than actual change.

Ahh rather than China were Hong Kong gets one state one system, clearly the Chinese oligarchy is more effective.