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Thread: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

  1. #61
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Since we both acknowledge how small and unsubstantial a thing changing these usages are.

    Why bother being bothered by it?
    1. Because Microsoft also knows that it is insubstantial thing and does that because it's effortless virtue signaling to tell the world "see how awesome we are!??!" and score points while MS has MUCH more power to deal with Systemic racism. And I am talking anything from using money to invest in poor neighborhoods to use their influence to make lawmakers (some of which are honestly trying but coming short of ideas or money) to help.

    2. I am not that bothered with is. MS is a private company. They can do whatever they want with the language they use. I am just irked that they use cheap tricks to play the heroes. Real activism takes guts. They are just pandering with the easy, the very easy and not risky stuff.
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  2. #62

    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    Guts are a rarer thing than we are taught in my experience. Something is better nothing is the second law of capitalism after exploit everyone at every opportunity. If this small change makes the oppressed feel the world wants them to belong a little more than it did yesterday. Who loses?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    1. Because Microsoft also knows that it is insubstantial thing and does that because it's effortless virtue signaling to tell the world "see how awesome we are!??!" and score points while MS has MUCH more power to deal with Systemic racism. And I am talking anything from using money to invest in poor neighborhoods to use their influence to make lawmakers (some of which are honestly trying but coming short of ideas or money) to help.

    2. I am not that bothered with is. MS is a private company. They can do whatever they want with the language they use. I am just irked that they use cheap tricks to play the heroes. Real activism takes guts. They are just pandering with the easy, the very easy and not risky stuff.

  3. #63
    Cookiegod's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Who loses?
    Those striving for actual change, for one. Secondly, those wanting to hear or see reasoned arguments, rather than vacuous virtue signalling and political "correctness" stifling debate. Thirdly, those who prefer to decide for themselves what words they do or do not want to use, rather than have them forced upon them by, vacuous people who are more about personal gain and the kick they get from policing others than about the cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
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  4. #64

    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Those striving for actual change, for one. Secondly, those wanting to hear or see reasoned arguments, rather than vacuous virtue signalling and political "correctness" stifling debate. Thirdly, those who prefer to decide for themselves what words they do or do not want to use, rather than have them forced upon them by, vacuous people who are more about personal gain and the kick they get from policing others than about the cause.
    How do those people lose? Unless this action matters a whole lot more than anyone here is arguing I don’t think those seeking real change are going to call it a day. Nor the racists trying to stop them. Debate doesn’t seem to be stifled. The racists are louder and prouder than they have been for decades.

    For me as a libertarian private companies have the right to do what they want. That’s not policing. Whining about it is whining though.

  5. #65
    Cookiegod's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    for me there's something racist about the notion that black people are children that need protection from words. Obviously that's just me saying that knowing some black programmers who cringed because of this and didn't appreciate being presented that way. Not that the upper management of Microsoft would know, since
    According to Microsoft's 2019 diversity report, 3.3% of its tech employees were Black in the U.S., up from 2.4% in 2016. More than 70% of its overall workforce was male, down slightly from 2016.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-black-hiring
    You might enjoy it and like it "as a libertarian" that a corporation presents itself as something it is not and white saviour a demographic from mean words that aren't mean except to those who can't even print('Hello World'). I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  6. #66
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    To pretend the intersubjective doesn’t affect us or that the power of language, a fluid thing not set in stone from its origins, isn’t important is a choice. Not a wise one though. Technically the word for a bundle of sticks shouldn’t offend anyone. But it does.
    Yes, words can organically attract connotations over time and I am not saying these should be ignored, because these accruing meanings are common knowledge and therefore effectively communicated. What should be opposed is the manufacturing of connotations with simplistic rules of thumb. Even if this is a well intentioned attempt at neurolinguistic programming on a societal scale, that doesn't take away the fact that it's a non-fact-based brainwashing strategy. Rejecting factuality is diametrically opposed to engaging with people who do not agree with you. This kind of tactic puts those employing it in the same category as a growing host of anti-establishment movements that likewise reject (scientific) facts and scientific authority.
    Last edited by Muizer; August 12, 2020 at 04:21 AM.
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  7. #67
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    Foolishly giving credence to those who would misuse these words for political gain, further dividing an already divided populace.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
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  8. #68

    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    I agree with a lot of this. What I disagree with is that the words are as benign as you believe. Much more essential to the greater cause, I fundamentally disagree that engaging with all groups of people has value. A minority of all populations can not be swayed. The more their belief systems are based on things like absolutism, anti science, supernatural dogma and a host of other things means the only solution is to crush their spirits, destroys their means or remove them from the equation some other way. Staunch opposition to nearly meaningless changes like this help identify such subjects.

    The nature of that opposition does determine if a good faith effort should be made to engage. Wheels within wheels was always one of my favorites.

    Great argument though. Articulated better than I ever write anything. A final thought, as long as people insist on things like the Confederate Flag having meanings other than the obvious, there will those trying to police everything that might be malicious. When the world is always against you in fact, and others deny it, it is impossible not to see enemies everywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Yes, words can organically attract connotations over time and I am not saying these should be ignored, because these accruing meanings are common knowledge and therefore effectively communicated. What should be opposed is the manufacturing of connotations with simplistic rules of thumb. Even if this is a well intentioned attempt at neurolinguistic programming on a societal scale, that doesn't take away the fact that it's a non-fact-based brainwashing strategy. Rejecting factuality is diametrically opposed to engaging with people who do not agree with you. This kind of tactic puts those employing it in the same category as a growing host of anti-establishment movements that likewise reject (scientific) facts and scientific authority.

  9. #69
    Cookiegod's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    So on one hand you admit to language being fluid, and on the other you don't see the futility of legislating words regardless of context. Hmmm. But keep at it and the baddies will run out of mean words. It's not like they can make up/recontextualise new ones.

    I say we ban all words. A worthy price to pay since there's no better way to convince people to join one's side than by policing what words they may or may not use.

  10. #70
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    If language is fluid banning words is pointless.
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  11. #71
    Cookiegod's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    It's not pointless if you like bossing others around

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  12. #72
    Cope's Avatar 777777777777777
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    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    Reminds me of this:


  13. #73

    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    If language is fluid banning words is pointless.
    This site bans words. Do you feel the same level of outrage? Is banning the swastika, the confederate flag and other symbols of hate pointless and just bossing people around? Words are symbols too.

  14. #74
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    Comparing words to the swastika is silly and about as useful as comparing a helicopter to a dolphin. Not to mention that the swastika itself is no longer banned in most places, including Germany.

    This site does not ban any words, it censors swearwords so as to keep it pg-13 but you are allowed to ing swear.


    Banning words because racism and xenophobia is like trying to dig a hole in water with a pickaxe. The racists and xenophobes will find other words to use as innuendo, and all you end up doing is wasting energy on a fruitless endeavor.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; August 15, 2020 at 05:53 AM. Reason: Inflammatory.
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  15. #75

    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    I see. This site bans thoughts not words. That isn't as bad come to think of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Comparing words to the swastika is silly and about as useful as comparing a helicopter to a dolphin. Not to mention that the swastika itself is no longer banned in most places, including Germany.

    This site does not ban any words, it censors swearwords so as to keep it pg-13 but you are allowed to ing swear.


    Banning words because racism and xenophobia is like trying to dig a hole in water with a pickaxe. The racists and xenophobes will find other words to use as innuendo, and all you end up doing is wasting energy on a fruitless endeavor.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; August 15, 2020 at 05:57 AM. Reason: Continuity.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    It's funny how many Supreme Gentlemen are offended by a private company exercising free speech.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  17. #77
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    Censorship is not free speech
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  18. #78

    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    Crumbling corporate entities are virtue-signalling by starting and losing a fight with a couple of words, more at 7.

  19. #79
    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Censorship is not free speech
    Oh cry me a river. Since when do private companies have to allow freedom of speech in their language use policies?

    I swear, conservatives these days...


    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Crumbling corporate entities are virtue-signalling by starting and losing a fight with a couple of words, more at 7.
    Let's have a conversation about Microsoft's growth over time. What metric should we use? Every major company and government agency has a language use policy that suggests tone of voice, appropriate language etc. Even Fox News. Even Breitbart. You're throwing virtue signalling about as if it isn't something you do with that picture in your signature. We all do it. Everybody.
    Last edited by antaeus; August 19, 2020 at 08:27 PM. Reason: If you didn't think Justin Timberlake when I said 'Cry me a river' before, you now do.
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  20. #80
    Cope's Avatar 777777777777777
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    Default Re: Microsoft to replace industry standard terms like whitelist, blacklist and master on GitHub with politically correct "race neutral" words.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Oh cry me a river. Since when do private companies have to allow freedom of speech in their language use policies?

    I swear, conservatives these days...
    That depends on the company and the speech which is being restricted.

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