Curia and Modders - should be a central part of the site, but how?

**Tacticalwithdrawal** · January 24, 2007, 05:03 AM

Traditionally the modding community has avoided the Curia like the plague, not really that surprising when you consider:

The bulk of modders just want a stable site with a good membership to showcase their mods
They are far too busy trying to understand why, for example, the two-handed animation is so glitchy to bother posting in a forum which seems to spend its entire time arguing the minutiae of some document called the Syntagma

However, let me give you a little history lesson of the last week or so's activity. There was only one reason that ON gave imb TWC and it wasn't the arguments/protests etc in the Curia. Now please don't get me wrong, the membership of the site did play a huge part in the successful transition of power, but TWC could have survived quite happily in ON if the whole CC was closed.

The key to the whole handover was the fact that a large number of the mods had made it known that they would be leaving TWC for the new site. Without the mods TWC dies, ON knew that and knew the war was lost (and thankfully Eric had the grace and courage to realise that and handover the site so that the communtiy wouldn't be damaged - something he will never get enough credit for).

Anyway, the question I am asking here is quite simple, how do we get the modders more involved in the Curia? What do we need to change so it becomes a central par of the site, the place where all citizens can help shape what direction the site goes in and what is required from it?

Please would all modders take time to have a look at this thread and give suggestions, what do you want? and how can the Curia adapt to that?

Other monologues - please contribute to them:

What is the Curia good for? an appeal.... http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...93#post1467293
Curia scope - what should we be doing, and how? http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...63#post1467363
Curia and Staff - what should we elect? http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80550

**gigagaia** · January 24, 2007, 05:14 AM

I think, to be honest, one thing that keeps modders away is the fact that the curia does nothing.
There are two reasons why this is not conducive to attracting the modders to building TWC.
#1) When the curia sits on its behind and navel-gazes about legislation to regulate how we legislate, we also get into a lot of politics, conflicts and instability. If I were a modder, I would not only find this a waste of time, but potentially harmful.
#2) Modders may also see the curia as somewhere where they won't be heard. The key here being, "If a modder posts in the curia and no admin really cares to consider the post, did the modder waste 20 minutes of their time?"

What will solve this problem, I think, is an empowerment of the curia, in making decisions and getting those decisions implemented and carried out. When a modder raises an idea or an issue, the curia should be able to follow through with it, so that the curia is seen as a productive and useful place for them to come and develop the community in.

I don't want to hijack this thread too much as it does have a specific aim of attracting modders back to the curia, but also remember Tac, that TWC is a symbiotic place. Both the TWc and Cc have contributed to the long-term success and development of TWC... As the saying goes, "come for the TW, stay for the debates..."

**Tacticalwithdrawal** · January 24, 2007, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by gigagaia

I don't want to hijack this thread too much as it does have a specific aim of attracting modders back to the curia, but also remember Tac, that TWC is a symbiotic place. Both the TWc and Cc have contributed to the long-term success and development of TWC... As the saying goes, "come for the TW, stay for the debates..."

agreed totally - and I have another monoluge in production on that subject

**the Black Prince** · January 24, 2007, 07:33 AM

i agree totally with gigs point no.1

but part of that has been caused by Sullas reforms of the Curia long ago... site policy was moved to the staff, and the curia got given the power to elect staff, and we were quite happy with the exchange, percieving then a site hierarchy that went from member at the bottom to triumvir at the top...

i think that hierarchy is erronerous. that there are three seperate hierarchies here. the most important is the one that goes from member to patrician

the other two are subsidiary to that. the staff hierarchy is taken from those who reach certain ranks on the main hierarchy, and is there to serve the main hierarchy, going moderator, administrator, site owner. the second is purely honourary and therefore possibly shouldn't be considered a hierarchy at all, and includes Senatorii Divus and Opifex, as special honorary titles for services rendered

now the Curia seems to be getting back its powers over policy, we have an opportunity to show that the Curia benefits all the site, and doesn't just work to regukate itself as a pointless little distraction.

**Muizer** · January 24, 2007, 12:25 PM

Concerning getting the Curia to foster activity on the site I've expressed my opinions elsewhere. There is one core princinple that should IMHO be at the basis of whatever we decide:

Whatever projects are set up through the Curia, the responsibility for them needs to rest with the individuals who are to be the driving force behind them. A curial ratification may serve as quality control and perhaps to recruit personnel. Staff will have to consent if the projects will make demands on their time and other forum resources. After that the projects should run autonomously without relying on or being in any other way tied to the Curia for anything.

This, I think, is vital if the Curia is going to be a home not just for people with an interest in forum administration. Beyond administering its membership, the Curia should not lead anything from the top. It should offer support to the initiative of members as a way for good ideas to gain momentum. These ideas could come from anywhere really, be they members of staff, citizens or normal members.

**Teleklos Archelaou** · January 25, 2007, 01:11 PM

Is there a way to have a reputation system for modding contributions? Things like tutorials or actual mod contributions contributing to something like reputation? Generally people in modding forums do not think about giving reputation much, and anyway the ones (rep points) that count only come from certain ranks, which also don't visit the modding forums as much as they do places like the curia or alternate topics forums. I see people like Adherbal, Nero666, Uranos, Prometheus, khelvan, Prof, Epistolary Richard, killerxguy, Zarax, DimeBagHo, HemilcoBarca, KALI, Caesar2345, Monkwarrior, Narses, DaVinci, Ramon Gonzales y Garcia, Aymar de Bois Mauri, Ludens, Cheexsta, Shqiponja_Hayabusa with no reputation (An unknown quantity at this point) - all of these are on mod teams, though some are much better known than others, and not all bear the artifex badge. In the interest of full disclosure, I am in this bunch too.

And people like lt1956, Count Zimoa of Flanders, sephodwyrm, FleigerAD, and Stuie with one star (Off to a Good Start).

Some guys like repman, Zhuge_Liang, Kull, Swabian, King Louise Assurbanipal, dragases1453, WImPyTjeH, and Darth Vader have cut the system off, but I wonder if it isn't out of irritation at having contributed so much, and having no "reputation" on a site like this, compared to people who post in debate forums mostly with very large reputations. I consider it something of an embarrassment to have a lot of those names with one star, or most with none, replying to questions about their mods to people with stacks of stars and medals, posting tutorials or guides or giving previews and posting updates - all with no one thinking to actually give rep to the things that really matter here in my personal opinion. I keep mine turned on to prove the point, though I've carried the self-bestowed title "sine existimatione" ("without reputation") here for a while now also because of this.

**Garbarsardar** · January 25, 2007, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

Is there a way to have a reputation system for modding contributions? Things like tutorials or actual mod contributions contributing to something like reputation? Generally people in modding forums do not think about giving reputation much, and anyway the ones (rep points) that count only come from certain ranks, which also don't visit the modding forums as much as they do places like the curia or alternate topics forums. I see people like Adherbal, Nero666, Uranos, Prometheus, khelvan, Prof, Epistolary Richard, killerxguy, Zarax, DimeBagHo, HemilcoBarca, KALI, Caesar2345, Monkwarrior, Narses, DaVinci, Ramon Gonzales y Garcia, Aymar de Bois Mauri, Ludens, Cheexsta, Shqiponja_Hayabusa with no reputation (An unknown quantity at this point) - all of these are on mod teams, though some are much better known than others, and not all bear the artifex badge. In the interest of full disclosure, I am in this bunch too.

And people like lt1956, Count Zimoa of Flanders, sephodwyrm, FleigerAD, and Stuie with one star (Off to a Good Start).

Some guys like repman, Zhuge_Liang, Kull, Swabian, King Louise Assurbanipal, dragases1453, WImPyTjeH, and Darth Vader have cut the system off, but I wonder if it isn't out of irritation at having contributed so much, and having no "reputation" on a site like this, compared to people who post in debate forums mostly with very large reputations. I consider it something of an embarrassment to have a lot of those names with one star, or most with none, replying to questions about their mods to people with stacks of stars and medals, posting tutorials or guides or giving previews and posting updates - all with no one thinking to actually give rep to the things that really matter here in my personal opinion. I keep mine turned on to prove the point, though I've carried the self-bestowed title "sine existimatione" ("without reputation") here for a while now also because of this.

As giga said, the modding awards could carry some rep benefit too. I always try to give rep in the modding fora especially for helpful answers to mod-ignoramus like myself.

**Sinuhet** · January 25, 2007, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

Is there a way to have a reputation system for modding contributions? Things like tutorials or actual mod contributions contributing to something like reputation? Generally people in modding forums do not think about giving reputation much, and anyway the ones (rep points) that count only come from certain ranks, which also don't visit the modding forums as much as they do places like the curia or alternate topics forums. I see people like Adherbal, Nero666, Uranos, Prometheus, khelvan, Prof, Epistolary Richard, killerxguy, Zarax, DimeBagHo, HemilcoBarca, KALI, Caesar2345, Monkwarrior, Narses, DaVinci, Ramon Gonzales y Garcia, Aymar de Bois Mauri, Ludens, Cheexsta, Shqiponja_Hayabusa with no reputation (An unknown quantity at this point) - all of these are on mod teams, though some are much better known than others, and not all bear the artifex badge. In the interest of full disclosure, I am in this bunch too.

And people like lt1956, Count Zimoa of Flanders, sephodwyrm, FleigerAD, and Stuie with one star (Off to a Good Start).

Some guys like repman, Zhuge_Liang, Kull, Swabian, King Louise Assurbanipal, dragases1453, WImPyTjeH, and Darth Vader have cut the system off, but I wonder if it isn't out of irritation at having contributed so much, and having no "reputation" on a site like this, compared to people who post in debate forums mostly with very large reputations. I consider it something of an embarrassment to have a lot of those names with one star, or most with none, replying to questions about their mods to people with stacks of stars and medals, posting tutorials or guides or giving previews and posting updates - all with no one thinking to actually give rep to the things that really matter here in my personal opinion. I keep mine turned on to prove the point, though I've carried the self-bestowed title "sine existimatione" ("without reputation") here for a while now also because of this.

Well, the system for modders reputation is good idea. However, how to solve the problem with reputations connected inehrently, i.e. that it is more about popularity and stronger are more and more stronger and beggars are always beggars .... I inclidned alwys to create some system of custom titles, maybe also with badges, for hiearachical structure of modders as for their respective contribution to modding only. We have artifex, but I liked more the original idea of artifex. Now, the artifex is already not purely modder "qualities" title, but it is to some extent always "political" by definition the way of becoming citizen (i.e. also Artifex). Opifex is good in this to the extent if it would be only for modders. It is functioning nicely as for selection only the few ones, but it is not the purely modders title in any way, still less than artifex in fact ....

So, quick and effective solution is a sytem of some special custom titles for modders only ....

On the other hand, there is huge area for modders to be more autonomous in decision making about features of TWC important for only them ... But this is dependnet on the starting to be active in the Curia and/or similar structures (councils etc.). But average modder have aversy to "politics" in the Curia .... So we should start with demythisation of the Curia and this colud give some influx of average modders, which avoid the Curia completely now, but they ahve some potential to be active members of community also in some toher than purely modding aspects .... The redefintion of politics based in the Curia is the key then, in my opinon. To stop the previous "culture" of average curial member - "I am wating to the post in the staff ...". I think that it is possible to be in the Curia without this mentality too, and I think that I am the one person for good example ... As for modders, I am hyperactive in the Curia, otherwise only average member of it, and as for power games clearly on the edge ... But this should be an ideal model for modders participating in the Community not only by creating their mods ...

**Teleklos Archelaou** · January 25, 2007, 02:00 PM

You guys are funny.

More rep points in ten minutes on one post than I've ever gotten in all my posts combined. Thanks I suppose, but it does prove my point also. Modders aren't given any rep for their mods/tutorials/responses/previews/etc., but they are for posts in places like the Curia or Thema Devia. That one post probably has more rep points in it than all EB directors have ever had in all their combined posts.

**makanyane** · January 25, 2007, 02:37 PM

You guys are funny. More rep points in ten minutes on one post than I've ever gotten in all my posts combined. Thanks I suppose, but it does prove my point also. Modders aren't given any rep for their mods/tutorials/responses/previews/etc., but they are for posts in places like the Curia or Thema Devia. That one post probably has more rep points in it than all EB directors have ever had in all their combined posts.

Sorry one of them was me, hadn't thought about it spoiling the point of your original post / user title. I'd agree with the first post though, from personal experience. After a year or so trying to be helpful around the modding workshop section, the only valid rep I ever got was from within own dev. forum or from entirely non-modding areas. I have a few nice comments attached to green dots from the workshop areas though - so perhaps minimum post limits aren't too kind to modders?

**Simetrical** · January 25, 2007, 03:54 PM

Note that any member can give rep. (Edit: As long as they have 50 posts or more, we had some problems with duplicate accounts.) Presumably for some reason people who post in the modding forums don't think to give it, while people in the debating forums do. I dunno why.

**Felixion** · January 25, 2007, 07:53 PM

Perhaps the modding awards could grant winners increased advertisment, perhaps on the front page.

**makanyane** · January 31, 2007, 02:28 PM

Err, bump...

Originally Posted by Tacticalwithdrawal

Please would all modders take time to have a look at this thread and give suggestions, what do you want? and how can the Curia adapt to that?

to try and widen some of the discussion I put references to Tac's threads in Q&S:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80866
I'm taking liberty of quoting repman's reply as I think it is worth further investigation here...

Originally Posted by repman

A proposal from a modder:

It would be nice to have a Concurrent Versions System (CVS) running on the website.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concurrent_Versions_System
There exists open source software which can be installed on the TW Server:
Features: different modder can work on the same project together as a collaboration workplace, file version control, projectmanagement
----> quick, professional mod development

Examples of free (some you have to pay) Platforms: sourceforge, berlios, cvsdude, subversion, groove.....

We at DLV mod are using a system for our project

If you set up such a system here at TWcenter it would benefit the mod community and bind the modders to the center..
repman

I think this sort of system was mentioned during the recent discussions of the possibility of moving to new site. Although I admit to not understanding full implications, as a modder it sounds like a very appealing idea. I would be grateful if we could look at this in two ways,

a. actually as a serious proposal, assuming anyone else agrees it has benefits.

b. regardless of the above to use it as an interesting test case.

How can / could the curia help to take such an idea forward. As I see it we'd need mechanism to gauge level of support / need from other modders. Possibly mechanism for investigating technical details and definitely procedure for consultation with Hex / owner over cost-benefit analysis. As it would I suspect have some sort of cost effect, either regarding software or bandwidth, I'm sure the owners decision would have to be final, but what imput could the Curia and modding community have to influence that?

Regarding all above I'm not aiming at any of those 'mechanisms' being enshrined in complex legislation, just that individuals know what approaches are possible.

**Professor420** · January 31, 2007, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by makanyane

Err, bump...
to try and widen some of the discussion I put references to Tac's threads in Q&S:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80866
I'm taking liberty of quoting repman's reply as I think it is worth further investigation here...

I think this sort of system was mentioned during the recent discussions of the possibility of moving to new site. Although I admit to not understanding full implications, as a modder it sounds like a very appealing idea. I would be grateful if we could look at this in two ways,

a. actually as a serious proposal, assuming anyone else agrees it has benefits.

b. regardless of the above to use it as an interesting test case.

How can / could the curia help to take such an idea forward. As I see it we'd need mechanism to gauge level of support / need from other modders. Possibly mechanism for investigating technical details and definitely procedure for consultation with Hex / owner over cost-benefit analysis. As it would I suspect have some sort of cost effect, either regarding software or bandwidth, I'm sure the owners decision would have to be final, but what imput could the Curia and modding community have to influence that?

Regarding all above I'm not aiming at any of those 'mechanisms' being enshrined in complex legislation, just that individuals know what approaches are possible.

And I've taken the liberty of starting a new thread for talk about it; it is a damn good idea and one that would draw modders to TWC and give us more reputation as developer-house instead of a promotional platform, something we spoke about for the new site, and now its fallen a bit by the wayside.

**imb39** · February 01, 2007, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Professor420

And I've taken the liberty of starting a new thread for talk about it; it is a damn good idea and one that would draw modders to TWC and give us more reputation as developer-house instead of a promotional platform, something we spoke about for the new site, and now its fallen a bit by the wayside.

I only bought the site yesterday!

I would also like to point out that we need a permamnet new home. Sim and I are getting some further info. Of course, once these critical issues are out of the way then ideas such as this should be implemented if feasible. This is more than feasible, it seems.

**Halie Satanus** · January 31, 2007, 04:36 PM

Curia and Modders - should be a central part of the site, but how?

Annex the Curia, put the Registry and the Mod university in there, have the registrar and the uni hierarchy elected offices of the Curia, Put a Q&S section in there as well so that TW related Q&S are asked directly in their own forums.

Elect a committee of Artifex to organise the modding awards and propose Artifex candidates (not vote on but propose), also as a think tank to thrash out any ideas that come up, six is a nice number.

There should be at least one possibly two recognised modders on Hex, since Modding is the centre of the sites success and there isn't any (to my knowledge) now Archer and Lusted have both left, Not saying the current guys don't have the modding communities interests at heart, but better the devil you know.

Slap the whole lot right between the RTW and MED 2 forums and let those who want to, get on with it, i guarantee you'll see a lot more modders getting involved than will ever come to the Curia.

Basically take the whole Curial circus out of the TW incentives process, modders tend to get things done in half the time with a quarter of the fuss, the COW proved that. (Apart from Hegemonia,

).

Then in about a year, when things calm down, shift the whole thing into the Capitol.

The Curia is far to introspective to leave the running of the TW in it's hands, Bahh, i can skin a twenty unit faction in the time it takes just to draw up list for the awards.

As the TW is in the middle of an explosion right now we need to think about it's future and play a long game, i see this as a possible start, and hopefully, later these people will find their own way to the Curia under their own steam.

I'm not saying that people who don't why you should never touch anything in {}, or the average difference in vertex between a high poly Lod and Low poly Lod shouldn't have a say.....Oh actually i am saying that.