CAN YOU ADD CUSTOM SKELETONS TO STRAT MAP MODELS simple yes or no is all I need

[Bu11seye00]

So can you add custom skeletons/bones to the strat map models? Everytime it try in milkshape GOAT won't let me convert it to .cas. I searched the forum and no one had ever tried this? LOL

[paleologos]

I never read a post by someone who did it.
And I hope you can forgive me for saying that demanding a "simple yes or no" type of answer is rather silly.

So here's a bit more nuanced answer:
One problem with CA models for M2TW is that the mesh and CAS files do not include skeleton data but they (inevitably) include bone weighting data.
Because milkshape cannot assign bone weights to a model that has no skeleton the conversion programs that exist add skeletons to the model during conversion.
It seems that GOAT does not recognize the bones to which the vertices of your milkshape model are weighted and gives you an error message - yes, no?

So, in theory, what you want is possible if you can create your own conversion program - or GOAT version - and add your custom skeleton in the appropriate files in the animations folder.

[Callistonian]

Yes.

But paleologos is correct and such an answer is entirely insufficient and quite useless to everyone concerned. Here is a more useful answer:

It is possible to make new strat skeletons and in fact the process is exactly the same as for making new battle skeletons so if you can do one you can do the other. The only difference being, as far as I can tell, that strat skeletons are referenced in descr_model_strat instead of battle_models.modeldb. The simplest type of 'new skeleton' that you can make is one for which only the scale factor as been changed. So to test I simply made a new strat skeleton at 0.4 scale. As you can see, this was a bit excessive and gave me more of a 'garden gnome' result than the 'goblin' I was going for. Obviously, the mesh would need to be scaled appropriately for the new skeleton, but as I said, the process would be the same as for making a battle skeleton.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A 1.0 scaled regular human on the left for reference. A 0.4 scaled goblin (now garden gnome) on the right. A trained eye can tell that I haven't just used the scale factor in descr_model_strat to achieve this result as that scale factor is for the mesh whereas the image shows the result of a scaled skeleton.

Since scaling works, I'm inclined to thing that adding new bones will work as well. What we really need now is a fast method for converting battle skeletons & animations to strat.

[nadalio]

It's very interesting.
With these principles is possible to add a strat model of a dragon?

[Callistonian]

I haven't confirmed that it's possible to add or remove bones for strat skeletons. We know that it is possible to make new strat skeletons at different scale factors. It seems like it is possible to make new animations just like for battle models. But without new bones it will be quite difficult to make something that actually moves like a dragon. I seem to recall that there is a hard coded limit on the number of bones for a battle skeleton. The same might apply to strat skeletons, or maybe the game needs only a certain set of bones for a strat skeleton, no more and no less. Someone must test this by making a new strat skeleton with new animations just like they would for a battle model.

[paleologos]

That's all good to know.
Let me know when you have converted a heavily modified skeleton to something that works properly in-game.

[Gigantus]

It's a bit of a chain if memory serves:

descr_character references the strat model (descr_model_strat, example southern_captain)
descr_model_strat references the skeleton (descr_skeleton, example strat_named_with_army)
descr_skeleton matches the skeleton type to animation sequences, example the above strat_named_with_army

On second thought nothing of the above has got anything direct to do with the actual skeleton rigged to a model.
You should be able to define\create a custom skeleton by stripping a model of of it's groups, alter the skeleton and then import a model and rig it, I believe it's not that difficult in milkshape, after all there are troll and dwarf skeletons around. So why not an alteration of a four legged skeleton for a dragon? May need custom animations as well and with it a custom entry in descr_skeleton.

[makanyane]

I haven't confirmed that it's possible to add or remove bones for strat skeletons. We know that it is possible to make new strat skeletons at different scale factors. It seems like it is possible to make new animations just like for battle models. But without new bones it will be quite difficult to make something that actually moves like a dragon. I seem to recall that there is a hard coded limit on the number of bones for a battle skeleton. The same might apply to strat skeletons, or maybe the game needs only a certain set of bones for a strat skeleton, no more and no less. Someone must test this by making a new strat skeleton with new animations just like they would for a battle model.

Wilddog's working on an IWTE release that should handle adding bones to strat anims - using WIP version I've got two new bones in to give a detachable sword, and detachable 'Lhand' for the banner - but haven't re-done all the anims yet so he's just doing a very annoying perpetual idle:



I was trying to find out if anyone knew if there was a hardcoded limit to the number of bones, but couldn't find much info - I guess I'm about to have to experiment...

Does anyone know if the 25 max bones for battlemap skeletons that's mentioned in places is actually verified?


(and yes I know he the banner is levitating without being picked up, it's a bit rough at the moment)


EDIT:
For strat-map skeleton looks like max is 24 'bones' in addition to the Scene Root - I got 25 bones + scene root to load, but the general model didn't appear, just the flag and shadow! It also gave CTD on exiting M2TW. Attempting to put a shadow mesh in that had 25 bones referenced got a straight crash on campaign load.