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Thread: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

  1. #41

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Hard to counter good arguments when you remove the obvious hate from them. I agree with your statements. Wholesale.
    Caveat almost nothing about Mohammeds life can be called fact. His biography is legend not history.

  2. #42

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    The gospel of Mary say Jesus was married to Mary. I guess thats a fact too. Using sources written centuries later as fact is silly to me.

    The vast majority of Muslims accept the Hadiths as true, while the Gospel of Mary was refejected as being false. If the Muslims had rejected the hadiths, I would not have cited it. The 2 things. are totally different.

    That is a fundamental difference - Christians don't accept the Gospel of Mary and never have. Muslims do accept the hadiths and they follow its examples. Do you know stoning adulterers is not in the Koran? Then why do Saudi Arabia and Iran stone adulterers? Because there hadiths for stoning adulterers.


    Silly or not, because Muslims believe the hadiths are authentic it is fair and just to bring up the hadiths. It is not fair to bring up the Gospel of Mary because Christians do not accept it and never did as autbentic. It would be the.epitome of sleaze and dishonesty for you to write Gospel and criticize Christians for what you wrote and they never accepted. And thst sleazy thing younare doing right now


    The reality is we don't know much about Mohammed. We know he existed, which is more than we can say about Jesus.
    Muhammad existenxe is no better sustantiated than Jesus existence. Even an agnostic like Bart Ehrman acknowledges Jesus existed.


    We have the letters of Paul written just 10, 20 years after Jesus, and the Gospel of Mark was written a mere 40 years after Jesus. Pagan writers bear witness to the existence of Jesus, as does Josephus. What they say is consistent with the bible.says

    The earliest biography of Muhammad dates to more than 100 years after Muhammad, and we don't even have that, all.we havd is excerts from later writers. All we have is Muslims say so Muhammad existed.. The earliest coins minted by Arab rulers do not even mention Muhammad's name. If you accept the existence but doubt Jesus then your are a hypocrite by your own standards.

    But pinning down specifics from his life just isn't going to happen. I could quote you the relevant Islamic law but meh, you would ignore it.
    If you can cite relevant Islamic law, produce it. It does not matter if I believe it or not, you will show the wold the truth.

    You have also failed to provide evidence ro show the hadiths came from Christians thinkers. We are still waiting, and failure to provide it will be an admission you made up the claim.


    You asked a Christian country where people still marry 9 year olds. Ethiopia.

    That is untrue. The minimum age in Ethiopia is 18, although they marry younger with parents comsent but not as young a 9. You provided no source and thought I wouldn't check, well you were wrong.
    See below
    https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/wp-co...March-2013.pdf


    In Muslim countries like Iran girls can as you as 9 as already posted https://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/marriage-o...child-in-iran/ Note the obscene example of an 11 year old marrying a 50 year old man. I forgot to mention that Muhammad was 50 when he had sex with 9 year old girl.

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    From wiki on the debate "Some traditional hadith sources state that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of 6 or 7; other sources say she was 9 when she had a small marriage ceremony; some sources put the date in her teens; but both the date and her age at marriage and later consummation with Muhammad in Medina are sources of controversy and discussion amongst scholars.
    "

    Wiki sources that are created by anybody, includinng liars, do not compare to hadiths from Islama most trusted sources

    The hadiths on Muhammad having sex with 9 years old Aisha came from al-Bukhari, whose hadiths are considered Islams most trusted source, second only to the Koran. Only the Koran is trusted by Muslims more.

    Many modern Muslims lie about this hadith because it make Muhammad and Isla. look bad, but Muslimz never had a problem with this hadith until modern times when they realized how bad it made Islam look.


    There are also lots of sources on the muslim world at the time. Just not the life of mohammed. I am not telling you anything you don't know. Don't blame me for what we have and don't have. I am not responsible.

    We do not have a lot of sources from the Muslim at the time and wbat we do have suggest Muhammad did not exist. Early documents do not mention his name, early coins minted by Arab rulers which is odd since later coins did. When you rely the evidence instead of Muslim propanda the case for Muhammad's actual existence becomes very weak. Here is an excellent book on early Islam "Crossroads ro Islam" https://www.booklibrarian.com/pdfepu...roads-to-islam


    You have repearedly demonstrated your ignorance on the hadiths, and repeatedly claims which are not true, lies in otherwords.


    In any case, these totally-invented-you-sources do not matter, since these hadiths are what most (say 90+%) Muslims believe to be true. Any of these non existent mythologic early Muslim sources were not kept because Muslims apparantly thought they were lies and so are not relevant.


    Throughout history marriages happened in arabic culture long before mohammed but weren't consummated until puberty.
    Which is not relevant point to make since the hadiths clearly said Muhammad consumatrd the marriage when Aisha was 9. STOP HIJACKING THE THREAD!!!!


    Mohammed marrie Aisha so Abu Bakr could be family.
    Which does not excuse or justify Muhammad having sex with her when she was 9! And the point is irrelevant anyways. Why Muhammad married her does not alter the fact that a 50 year old having sex wirh a 9 years old is a scummy thing to do.

    The history of Europe is riddled with such marriages.
    No it is not. That is a lie. Give an example of a European marriage between a 6 years old girl and a 50 years old man and where the marriage was consumated when the girl was 9.. There are no such examples

    Most grown men aren't looking to 6 y
    olds. That your and common's default argument is they are is disturbing.
    It is disgusting, immoral, and proves why Muhammad was morally bankrupt, a truly horrible person.

    People who think having sex with years old do things like this https://es.redskins.com/topic/76109-...eing-pregnant/ Stone to dearh 13 years old girl for being raped. Or this https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d6d_1213054769 Iran leads the world is child executions


    Greek history, Arabic, Roman, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Russian, European the world over. I get it. You really want Mohammed to have ed a 6 year old and for Jesus to have never ed anyone.www

    No one wants Muhammad to have married a 6 year old and have sex with a 9 years old, they are just reportinf that Muhammad did according Muslim's own trusted sources

    Both are almost certainly not true.
    The truth is.irrelevant since because Muslims believed it to be true! Which leads to 50 years old Muslim men marrying 11 years old girls today like this was https://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/marriage-o...child-in-iran/

    And Muslim denial of the truth leads to.this https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/12/02/...facebook-posts

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    The Hadith which claim that Aisha was nine years old when the marriage was consummated are those that are considered saḥīḥ (authentic or correct) by Muslim religious scholars, that is the most reliable of Hadith classifications. If the claim is not historically accurate, it begs the question as to why early Muslims would have invented the story. Which is exactly the OP's question.
    The fact these Muslim scholars were not troubled by Aisha only being 9 when Muhammad had sex with her is very troubling. They didn't even try to make excuses, showing they were not bothered by a 50 years old man having sex with a 9 years old. And not any man, but the greatest of God's prophet. It is frightening that these scholars were the religious leaderw of Islam. If the hadith were rated bad, we could dismiss it.

    And some of the hadiths are just so ridiculous - A hadith about a Koran verse instructing grown women to breasrfeed grown men to avoid lust? How could any rational person take that seriosly?. Or the hadith about breastfeeding grown men "accidently" becoming forever lost when a tame sheep ate? They are absurd. How could such absurd hadiths be included?


    It suddenly occurred me that maybe the hadith collectors like Shahih Muslim didn't actually read the hadiths. What makes a hadith good is the chain of transmission. Al-Bukhari had to go through something like 500,000 hadiths to find something like 7,000 good ones. With that many hadiths, maybe he didn't have time to read the content of each hadith, just their chain of transmission


    If all they were doing is checking the chain of transmission, it seems it would be easy for one to forge a false chain of transmission and sneak whatever absurd hadith you wanted, knowing the Muslims were so gullible they would believe anything. The whole chain of transmission criteria seems a silly criteria anywayz. Most of the persons in the chain would be dead, so you could not verify the content. If a person recites a hadith from a dead person, how could you prove he didn't invent it and just claim it was from the dead man? How could you disprove if? Or maybe the dead man you got it from invented it?


    If the stories about the age of consummation of the marriage are not true, and were against acceptable social practice in the early Muslim community, I can't understand why they would have persisted, but since this is the Ethos, Mores et Monastica sub-forum rather than Vestigia Vetustatis sub-forum, the fact that mainstream Muslim scholarship considers these Hadith authentic is arguably more relevant than whether or not they are historically accurate.
    Since some modern Muslims engage in such behaviour maybe ancient Muslims were ok with it. Aftrr all a 50 years old Iranian man married an 11 years old girl recently.

    Bur maybe the answer is that a bogus hadith was snuck in, there was no mechanism to remove it. Just as Muslims today are living with it, even those who find it objectionable are not advocating removal as far as I see. If you atset questioning any of al-Bukhari, it opens up a can of worms you won't want to deal with. If you can't trust that hadith, how can you trust any of them? It would be admitting your crireria for judfing good hadiths did not work.

    I'm not aware of any contemporary sources on the social context of the life of Muhammad that would shed any light on the discussion. Those sources closest to the time of Muhammad are the Muslim sources, such as the Hadith and Ibn Ishaq (who says the same).
    Here is a good source I foond on early Islam "Crossroads to Islam"
    https://www.booklibrarian.com/pdfepu...roads-to-islam

    From a strictly historical perspective, it really isn't an issue of major concern. It becomes more of an issue for those who believe Muhammad's life to be the ultimate model of moral behavior based on Al-Aḥzāb 33:21, and naturally, for those critical of Islam.
    Unfortunately, Muhammad is a role model for most Muslims
    Last edited by Aexodus; August 15, 2020 at 07:41 PM. Reason: Merged/insulting others

  3. #43

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    You say Mohammed probably did not exist. So was Aisha ed by something like the Holy Ghost, like Christians believe Mary was?

    Since you believe Mohammed wasn’t real, seems you are saying I was correct, he never ed a 9 year old. Thank you for admitting my argument was the true one.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Thank you for admitting my argument was the true one.
    Your argument was that "the sources" did not say Muhammed consummated his marriage with Aisha when she was 9. That they were just betrothed when Aisha was 6 or 9.

    Your statement (post 27):
    "You think Aisha and Mohammed consummated their marriagewhen she was 6 or 9. They were betrothed then according to the sources with a small ceremony."
    Which you follow with:
    "Your mistake".

  5. #45

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Do you think it was the Holy Ghost too?

  6. #46

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    You say Mohammed probably did not exist. So was Aisha ed by something like the Holy Ghost, like Christians believe Mary was?

    Since you believe Mohammed wasn’t real, seems you are saying I was correct, he never ed a 9 year old. Thank you for admitting my argument was the true one.
    As I.repeatedly said. whether Muhammad really lived or not regarding this issue. What matters is that Muslims believed Muhammad lived and the hadith that said he had sex with a 9 years old girl.

    If you want to play the game Muhammad never existed, then you must admit the Koran is false and Islam is a false religion as well. Do you acknowledge the Koran and Islam are false? I know for certain that Islam and the Koran are false, because the Koran says several things that are falsean. And if the Koran is false, Islam is false as well.

    But again, it doesn't matter if Muhammand was real or not to the OP of the thread. Even if the writers the hadiths did not think Muhammad was real does not matter. If the writers thought Muhammad didn't exist, then maybe the writers just hated Muslims or were trying to make Muslims look like idiots, it is really the same question. What matters iz that Muslims thought Muhammad was real and the hadith authentic

    A 50 years old man having sex with a 9 years old is a terrible thing to do and Muhammad was a terrible man. And honoring a terrible man indicate you have a terrible moral compass. People honoring a terrible man like Muhammad would.be expected to do terrible things and Muslims are doing terrible things in Muhammad's name - blowing up buildings with innocent people, blowing up churched of powerless minorities on their holiest day, hacking the heads off innocent schoolgirls


    Note, we judge fictional characters good or evil, and advice given by fictional character can be just as valid.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Do you think it was the Holy Ghost too?
    "Too", indicates someone else thinks "it" as well. This is not established.
    This is also an attempt to change the subject from what you argued: that the sources do not say Muhammad consummated his marriage with Aisha when she was 9.
    While I provided the sources saying just that.
    Last edited by Infidel144; August 15, 2020 at 11:33 AM.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    I think it. Established. I conceded the source argument many posts ago.
    Last edited by Tango12345; August 16, 2020 at 10:18 AM. Reason: off-topic removed

  9. #49

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    I think it. Established. I conceded the source argument many posts ago.
    You have not provided them as repeatedly requested.

    1. You have not provided a source.on you claim the hadiths came from Christian thinkers

    2. You have not provided the Islamic laws you claimed. Sayinf you could provide but won't is not concedeing, it is sleazily evading answering.

    3. You claimed there were lots of early Islamic sources bur have not provide any actual sources

    4. You claim that were lots of European marriages like Muhammad where 50 years old man marries a 6 years old and had sex with her at 9, but you have not provided any sources.

    5. You claim that Muhammad did not consumate his marriage to Aisha when she was 9, but you have not provided a source.

    So what source argument did you concede on and what post was that?
    Last edited by Tango12345; August 16, 2020 at 10:19 AM. Reason: continuity

  10. #50

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Not arguing the content as having been written, arguing using the content as historical fact. And fair on the sources. How about there are some sources on or referencing the Muslim world at the time, as well as evidence from other academic fields, while Mohammed’s life is a black hole of nearly nothing in contemporary sources. Acceptable?
    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Hard to counter good arguments when you remove the obvious hate from them. I agree with your statements. Wholesale.
    Caveat almost nothing about Mohammeds life can be called fact. His biography is legend not history.
    Posts 39 & 41. Conceded. Sumskils has skills. No way around it.

    Do you admit you were wrong about me not conceding?

    I answered your questions. Answer mine.
    Last edited by alhoon; August 15, 2020 at 07:29 PM. Reason: personal references and off topic content removed

  11. #51

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Now you still haven't adequately answered me the questions I have asked you.

    1. What is an example of an hadith being influenced by Christian thinkers? I really am curious, because I have read a number of hadiths and find no trace of Christian thinking in them. What hadiths were influence by specifical Christian thought. If you don't know of any, then just say so and we can drop the matter, but I would like to know why you made the claimnif you did not know if it was true.


    2. What is the evidence for European men marrying girls as young as 6 and sex witb at 9, which is what Mohammed did. This seems the type of claims Muslimz invented so Mohammed would not look so bad. But their claims are bogus and Mohammed is worse. Others.may have been marrying girls.as young as 13 years, but 9 is far worse.

    And the second factor making it worse is the age difference - Mohammed wss 50! When we other cultures when the brides are young the grooms are also young, a bride 14 but the groom is likely to be only 18 or so himself, not nearly so bad as Mohammed's example. Only in Muslim countries do I see such large age discrepancies with very young girls, no dount due to Mohammed's example.

    A third factor why Mohammad was worse was Mohammed waa a great religious leader, we have a right expect a higher standard moral standard than some ordinary joe. Even if the attempted Muslim claims of others having sex with 9 years old were true, Muhammad would still be worse. Here is an atheist youtuber explaining it far better than I why it was bad https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ59DcIZCEs

    Here is a video going through all the ways Muslims as wanderwegger did to try deny Aisha was 9. At in the end is a Muslim apologist adding she was 9. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ywJIkXvrHpo. The reason I went to such great lengths was not to bash Islam, but so you can understand the OP - since Muhammad having sex with 9 years was so bad, why was the hadith created? Could it have been created to make Muhammad look bad?

    I think we can agree it makes Mohammed look bad, the way some have struggle to deny Aisha was 9. If it was made to discredit Mohammed and Islam it has done a good job. If the hadith was bogus, what would be the ramification for Islam? Should a new criterka be set up for judging hadiths?

    The lots of other possible source for the hadiths - local Arab customs, legends myths or just the imagination of the hadith creators. Most hadiths explain a particular Koran verse or Muslim custom, such as washing, can you divorce a woman during her menstruations or circumcism, whar Muhammad did, topics of no interest to Christians. There is no justication to assert they cam from Christian thinker when other more plausibe explanations exist.

    I am much better informed and knowledgeable on the hadiths than you.
    .
    Last edited by Common Soldier; August 16, 2020 at 11:35 AM. Reason: off-topic removed unneccess typo

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    No more personal references or disruptive and/or off-topic comments please. Anyone who posts them is liable to get infracted.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Common, what is your source on your being much better informed on the hadiths than me?

  14. #54

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Common, what is your source on your being much better informed on the hadiths than me?
    There are several reasons:

    1. You did know the importance of hadiths, and collections of hadiths like Bukhari are second only to the Koran. If you knew the hadiths you wouldn't need this explained to you

    2. You to be explained how the Aisha was sahih which showes it was valid

    3. You never presented any hadiths yourself or valud sourced and the best source you could come up with was a wiki article while relpeatedly provkded links to the actual.hadiths themselves

    4. The mere fact you suuggesr Christian thinkers a source for the hadiths shows an ignorance of them;

    a. The hadiths deal wirh Muhammad and often explains a specic verses of the Koran. Christian writers would have had no knowledge or interest. The obvious source for the hadith's origin, if not in the actual life of Muhammad, is the imaginatiion of the hadith writer.. The wtier came.with a plausibe sounding story that explained the verse. like.a Just So story "How thr tiger got his stripes". Where did the stories of the life of Muhammad come from? Certainly not Christian thinkerz. that is too absurd to debste!

    b. The topic of the hadiths are ones Christian thinkers did not bother with. Like divorcing menstruating wife.inheritance, where Islamic rules.were different

  15. #55

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Mostly I knew the hadiths were compiled deep into Islam’s time, when the Caliphate had moved all around and that Persian Jews and Zoroastrian priests were deeply involved in the process of first sorting them. Also that many are hotly and long debated and often controversial, not universally accepted by all Islam. So much so that for over a thousand years the scholarship of determining what hadiths are true and not and their meaning is the highest theological skill in Islam. Like Christian thinkers determining which of the many gospels were true or not in the early several centuries after Jesus but ongoing. And Christian thinkers debating the meaning of the gospels today.

    I wonder if any scholars have considered this line of thinking. If not, and I strongly suspect not except maybe the kind you find in rarely traveled corners of the internet, have you considered writing something more substantial on the subject?


    You know the hadiths better, I know the Bible better. Not denying something that obvious. I concede.
    Last edited by wanderwegger; August 16, 2020 at 11:57 PM.

  16. #56

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Mostly I knew the hadiths were compiled deep into Islam’s time, when the Caliphate had moved all around and that Persian Jews and Zoroastrian priests were deeply involved in the process of first sorting them.
    Can you provide a source for that? I never heard Jews and Zoroastrians were involved with the hadiths. But it would explain my OP if true. Non Muslims collecting the hadiths whonevery reason to hate Islam for conquering their countr would have had the opportunities to slip in bogus hadiths making Islam look bad.

    Also that many are hotly and long debated and often controversial, not universally accepted by all Islam. So much so that for over a thousand years the scholarship of determining what hadiths are true and not and their meaning is the highest theological skill in Islam. Like Christian thinkers determining which of the many gospels were true or not in the early several centuries after Jesus but ongoing. And Christian thinkers debating the meaning of the gospels today.
    Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim some.other colllectors complered the task and settled the debate for their collections ago. You have to be really ignorant of hadiths not to know they nearly universlly acceptee by all Muslims, 95+% I would say. Only fringe Muslims don't. Al-Bukhari collections were not part of active debate his was the end product of that sorting process and completed it in 846 AD. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_al-Bukhari


    Christian did not debate for centuries on which gospels to accept as authoratative, very early they settled on the 4 cannonical Gospels. The 2nd century Church Irenaeus said there were 4 gospels. It is true that was not confirmed officially until centuries later but by the 2nd the debate was over, if there ever was one.

    I wonder if any scholars have considered this line of thinking. If not, and I strongly suspect not except maybe the kind you find in rarely traveled corners of the internet, have you considered writing something more substantial on the subject?
    I can barely type a post, so writing something longer wouls be too taxing.

    You know the hadiths better, I know the Bible better. Not denying something that obvious. I concede.
    I do know the hadiths better, but I think I know the Bible as well.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; August 17, 2020 at 05:01 AM.

  17. #57

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    So I am using Muslim tactics? Source is history. I definitely know the Bible better.

    Irenaeus thought humans were only 6000 years old nearly 2000 years ago. Wouldn’t necessarily trust his judgment.

  18. #58

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    So I am using Muslim tactics? Source is history. I definitely know the Bible better.
    We will just have to disagree. I deleted my speculations they had no place in the thread. You haven't shown yoi have superior knowledgr

    Irenaeus thought humans were only 6000 years old nearly 2000 years ago. Wouldn’t necessarily trust his judgment.
    All.pre.modern Jews Christians Muslims thought the world was 6000 years old. That is no knock on him. I merely used him to show how favored the 4 gospels were even early on. Archeology supports this, we have far more copies of ancient canonical than other gospels. His opinion was sbared by other early Christians.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    I stumbled across this article where at least one Muslim agrees with the OP, saying Persian Imans but were secretly Zoroastrians created the hsdiths https://tablikpublic.wordpress.com/2...-why-when-how/

  20. #60

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Thank you for providing evidence for my statement on the Zoroastrian influence. Essentially what happened is the Persian Imans wanted a mechanism of control, similar to when the Romans convened the 4th century councils to create the Bible. Many of the most respected scholars were Jewish (plus Islam being Abrahamic made sense to include them) and they wanted the appearance of an neutral body aiding in the choosing of which hadiths were valid). Persia was still deeply influenced by the Zoroastrians while also seeking to remove them from the equation hence their involvement.

    Early Christianity was influenced by Zoroastrian deeply too before and than through this process. Duality of light and dark. Heaven and hell. The devil. Much more the thoughts of Zoroaster than the Jewish traditions Christianity came from.

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