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Thread: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Plenty of Christian atrocities that make the twin towers seem like nothing.
    And plenty of Muslims attrocities as well, some of them still ongoing. Like what ISIS is doing today.



    What would archeological evidence matter here? Contemporary evidence can't even confirm Jesus was a real person, certainly can't confirm Moses was, doesn't mean the influence isn't real?¬
    What does archeology have to do with the issue? We have no contemporarry evidence for Muhammad oe Buddha either. You point about thr influencd being real is valid. And Muhammad's influence encourgaes marriages with girls as young as 10 today in major Muslim countries like Iran https://www.newsweek.com/un-condemns...oung-10-423435

    Where in the Quran does it say marry young girls? We have established it says it repeatedly in the Bible.
    Bible talks about young girls, nowhere does it talk about prepubescent girls, girls who have not started menustrating. What verse does it talk about marrying prepubescent girls? It does not. Ths Quran in 65:4 gives direction on divorcing girls who have not started menustrstating. You can't get divorce until you get married first.

    Plenty of places in Africa where Christians marry young girls today. Used to be plenty of places in Europe and the US too not so long ago. Who are you kidding?
    The issue was not that Aisha was a young girl, was that she was a real young pre-pubescent girl. Name a Christian African country where the girls are as young.as 6 or 9 thwt get married.

    There is a huge difference between 9 and 14, even 12 or 13. 9 was never regarded as acceptable in Europe for sex. Stop changing the goal post.

    Your views of the bible are incredibly unique. I will give you that.
    Actally, they are not. Your views also are not unique, they are typical progressives defense of Islam as seen here https://thesecularbrownie.com/2017/0...ese-six-steps/

    Your views on Islam are straight out of a far right primer
    If the far right included Bill Maier and Sam Harris, and athiest youtubers https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7dCsEXeYM3E https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AY7wOpn7FP4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ59DcIZCEs

    [B]How exactly would bronze age warfare achieve a quick death like bombing (which also probably was as rosy as you make it out to be)? Game it out for us.
    Why are you even asking this question, it is not related in possible way to the discussion. Your question does not make sense
    Last edited by Common Soldier; August 13, 2020 at 06:41 AM. Reason: Personal reference part removed typos fixed

  2. #22

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    No assertions. The Muslims who wrote the Hadiths hated Mohammed is an assertion. All I did was recite established history.

    Doesn't sound like a no. Whataboutery I am at least i can say I think religions whose holy texts support marriage to young girls are morally corrupt. You can't.

    If you want to have an honest moment I provide far more evidence for my views than you or Common ever does for yours. We all know I could literally post a video of the hadith writer of the one linked by Common (who was likely writers over time) reading an OT turned to the verses selected writing this hadith and you wouldn't be satisfied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    You are now trying to shift the burden of proof. You made assertions, the burden of proof is on you.



    Yet you claim to be disturbed by the hadith criticism focused on the age of Aisha, indeed you presume to speak for everyone in that regard, but then go on to provide Torah verses when the OP continues.
    So it was just whataboutery.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; August 14, 2020 at 01:26 PM. Reason: Off-topic - Personal References

  3. #23

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    No assertions. The Muslims who wrote the Hadiths hated Mohammed is an assertion. All I did was recite established history.
    What established history? You have yet to recite any history that I see. I raised a question about the hadiths possibly being written by people who hated Muhammad, I did not assert it. Thers is a difference between a hypothesis and an assertion. I merely pointed out that if the hadiths often made Muhammad look bad, and that even the enemies of Muhammad and Islam wouldn't have made up hadiths as ridiculous as some of them are. Some of the Koran being lost because a sheep ate? Give me a break, thst is like saying my dog ate my homework.

    *Old Testsment stories are not estsblished history, if that is what you meant, and in any case are not relevant to the discussing.

    Doesn't sound like a no. Whataboutery I am at least i can say I think religions whose holy texts support marriage to young girls are morally corrupt. You can't.
    It depends on what you mean by young girl.- that is a vague term. If you mean 9 year old, yes that is corrupt. But 16 is not really, young by our modern standards but not by ancient ones. But 9 is young even by ancient standard.

    If you want to have an honest moment I provide far more evidence for my views than you or Common ever does for yours.
    You have never provided any honesty in a dozen post, so I doubt it. Calling people racist and quoting the Old Testament when discussing the hadith is not providing evidencd. I have provided evidence, I have provided actual hadiths, which is more than you have done.

    We all know I could literally post a video of the hadith writer of the one linked by Common (who was likely writers over time) reading an OT turned to the verses selected writing this hadith and you wouldn't be satisfied.
    If you have actual evidence on the hadith that you did not manufacture yourself, present.
    Last edited by alhoon; August 14, 2020 at 10:05 PM. Reason: personal references removed

  4. #24

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    I was talking to Infidel about no longer posting. After your statements, the saddest part of this is how confused your posts always are. Are you as excited as I am for the Did the Gospel Writers Secretly Hate Jesus thread?

    Stay tuned.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    I was talking to Infidel about no longer posting. After your statements, the saddest part of this is how confused your posts always are. Are you as excited as I am for the Did the Gospel Writers Secretly Hate Jesus thread?

    Stay tuned.
    So are you going to answer any of questions then, since you say your promise not reply was not to me?

    Among the many questions you have not answered:

    1. Which non Muslin African countries legally allow sex with 9 years old girls, as you imply?

    2. Which major Christian thinker supported sex with 9 year old girls as you imply?

    3. Give an example of a hadith that was derived from a Christian thinker as you claim? Provide the hadith and the Christian work

    4. Give example of European countries giving ok to 9 year old girls as you imply.

    5. Give an example of an hadith that was derived from Persian work as you claim.


    Here is a video by an athiest youtuber that clearly explains why Muhammad having sex with a 9 year old was bad in a way much better than me;

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ59DcIZCEs

    Even in ancient times, having sex with prepubsecent girls was looked down up. We don't see the Bible portraying Moses, Abraham Jesus, or other major figures having sex with girls hvig not reached puberty, only Muhammad is portrayed like that. Were these stories originally created to discredit Muhammad?


    Or take this hadith, where a sheep ate part of the Koran https://sunnah.com/urn/1262630
    Last edited by Common Soldier; August 13, 2020 at 07:10 AM. Reason: Name calling part removed. typos fixed

  6. #26

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    No assertions. The Muslims who wrote the Hadiths hated Mohammed is an assertion. All I did was recite established history.
    "Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?"
    That is a question. It is even a properly formed question.
    You just made assertions.

    Doesn't sound like a no. Whataboutery I am at least i can say I think religions whose holy texts support marriage to young girls are morally corrupt. You can't.
    Ignoring your question does not sound like anything. It is just ignoring your question. Since your question was simply a red herring.
    Much as the whataboutery of your opening post 9 with "What are your thoughts on the Bible laws on genocide and child marriage?" after you indicated you were disturbed by the criticism of some hadith.

    If you want to have an honest moment I provide far more evidence for my views than you or Common ever does for yours. We all know I could literally post a video of the hadith writer of the one linked by Common (who was likely writers over time) reading an OT turned to the verses selected writing this hadith and you wouldn't be satisfied.
    I don't think I have provided my views at the topic, so I'm not sure why I would need to provide any evidence of them. Not that my views would be of any relevance since I clearly "know nothing of the Hadiths or how the study of history works".
    I did request that you provide statements from the hadith compilers that these hadith, the criticism of which "disturbs" you (so much so that you want to put these hadith on Jews (post 11)), came from the OT, you could also provide statements from the hadith compilers stating that the hadith dealing with the age of Aisha were actually given by the Jews to the Muslims.
    But, yes, I would not be 'satisfied' with that video, in fact, I would dismiss it as a fraud. Since there were no videos at the time...
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; August 14, 2020 at 07:07 AM. Reason: For continuity

  7. #27

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    I get it now. Islamic law states puberty. You think Aisha and Mohammed consummated their marriagewhen she was 6 or 9. They were betrothed then according to the sources with a small ceremony. Happened all over Europe into the 1800s. Super common.

    Your mistake.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    The sources state that Muhammed and Aisha were contracted when Aisha was 6 (or 7) and then consummated when she was 9:

    The History of al-Tabari Vol. 7: The Foundation of the Community
    The Events of Year 1 The Marriage with A'isha
    He had married her in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At that time she was six or, according to other accounts, seven years old...
    The angel brought down my likeness; the Messenger of God married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine; he married me when I was a virgin, no other man having shared me with him, inspiration came to him when he and I were in a single blanket...

    The History of al-Tabari Vol. 9: The Last Years of the Prophet
    Events of the Year 10
    The Reason Why the Messenger of God Asked for the Hands of Both A'isha and Sawdah in Marriage...
    My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. Jumayah, my nurse, took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door, she stoped so I could catch my breath. I was then brought [in] while the Messenger of God was sitting on a bed in our house. [My mother] made me sit on his lap and then said, "Thes are your relatives. May God bless you with them and bless them with you!" Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me...


    Some from various hadith collections:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Abu Dawud:
    Chapter 32/33. Regarding The Marriage Of The Young
    2121.'Aishah narrated: "The
    Messenger of Allah married me
    while I was a girl of seven years"
    - Sulaiman (one of the narrators :J
    said: "or six," - and he
    consummated the marriage when I
    was a girl of nine." (Sahih)
    Jami at-Tirmidhi Vol. 2
    Chapter 19. What Has Been
    Related About Coercing A
    Female Orphan To Marry
    1109 pg480
    Ahmad and Ishaq said that when
    the orphan girl reaches nine years of
    age, and she is given in marriage and
    she approves, then the marriage is
    allowed, and she does not have a
    choice to permit or to annul it when
    she reaches puberty. They argued
    using the Hadith of 'Aishah that the
    Prophetç consummated his
    marriage with her when she was nine
    years of age,111 and 'Aishah has
    said: "When a girl reaches nine years
    of age then she is a woman."

    Sunan Ibn Majah Vol. 3
    Chapter 13. Marriage Of
    Minor Girls Arranged By
    Their Fathers
    1876. It was narrated that
    'Aishah said: "The Messenger of
    Allah manied me whqn I was
    srx years old. Then we came to
    Al-Madinah and settled among
    Banu Harith bin Khazraj. I
    'became ill and my hair fell out,
    then it grew back and became
    abundant. My mother Umm
    Ruman came to me while I was
    on an urjuhah1 with some of my
    friends, and called for me I went
    .to her, and I did not know what
    she wanted She took me by the
    hand and made me stand at the
    door of the house, and I was
    panting. When I got my breath
    back, she took some water and
    wiped my face and head, and led
    me mto the house. There were
    some woman of the Ansar insrde
    the house, and they said: 'With
    the blessings and good fortune
    (from Allah).' (My mother)
    handed me over to them and they
    tidted me up. And suddenly I saw
    the Messenger of Allah in the
    morning. And she handed me
    over to him and I was at that
    time, nine years old " (Sahih)

    Sunan an-Nasai Vol. 4
    Chapter 29. A Man Marrying
    Off His Young Daughter
    3257. It was narrated from 'Aishah
    that the Messenger of Allah
    married her when she was six years
    old, and consummated the
    marriage with her when she was
    nine. (Sahih)
    Comments:
    There is absolutely no difference of opinion concerning contracting marriage
    of one's non-adult or minor daughter. The disagreement, however, exists in
    the matter whether the daughter has the right to retain the mamage or not,
    when she reaches puberty. But the girl has the right to dissolve her marriage
    when she attains puberty, if the marriage contract was made effective by a
    guardian other than her father. There is consensus over it.


    3258. It was narrated that 'Aishah
    said: "The Messenger of Allah
    married me when I was seven years
    old, and he consummated the
    I marriage with me when I was
    nine." (Sahih)
    Comments:
    There is no conflict between six and seven. She had attained the age of six
    years. The seventh year had commenced.

    Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 5
    63. The Merits of al-Ansar
    (44) CHAPTER. The marriage of the
    Prophet with 'Aishah and
    'Aishah's arrival at Al-Madina, and the
    Prophet's consummation of that marriage.
    3894. Narrated 'Aishah: My
    marriage (wedding) contract with the
    Prophet was written when I was a girl of
    six (years). We came to Al-Madina and we
    dismounted at the place of Bani Al-Harith
    bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell
    down. Later on, my hair grew (again) and my
    mother, Umm Raman, came to me while I
    was playing in a swing with some of my girl
    friends. She called me, and I went to her, not
    knowing what she wanted to do to me. She
    caught me by the hand and made me stand at
    the door of the house. I was breathless then,
    and when my breathing became normal, she
    took some water and rubbed my face and
    head with it. Then she took me into the
    house. There in the house I saw some Ansari
    women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's
    Blessing and good luck." Then she
    entrusted me to them and they prepared me
    (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's
    Messenger came to me in the forenoon
    and my mother handed rnr over to him, and
    at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.




    3896. Narrated Hishãm's father: Khadija
    died three years before the Prophet
    departed to Al-Madina. He stayed there for
    two years or so and then he wrote the
    marriage (wedding) contract with 'Aishah
    when she was a girl of six years of age, and he
    consummated that marriage when she was nine
    years old
    Last edited by Infidel144; August 14, 2020 at 09:50 PM.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Jariri hasn't been an extant madhhab for some time. You know that right?

    Are you quoting a book written centuries after Mohammed's death that starts with a creation myth as true history? While a great source of history, especially from the decades before and during his life; the stuff from the time of Mohammed isn't considered fact.

    Or if you prefer

    O Muse, tell me of that man of many ways, who travelled


    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    The sources state that Muhammed and Aisha were contracted when Aisha was 6 (or 7) and then consummated when she was 9:

    The History of al-Tabari Vol. 7: The Foundation of the Community
    The Events of Year 1 The Marriage with A'isha
    He had married her in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At that time she was six or, according to other accounts, seven years old...
    The angel brought down my likeness; the Messenger of God married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine; he married me when I was a virgin, no other man having shared me with him, inspiration came to him when he and I were in a single blanket...

    The History of al-Tabari Vol. 9: The Last Years of the Prophet
    Events of the Year 10
    The Reason Why the Messenger of God Asked for the Hands of Both A'isha and Sawdah in Marriage...
    My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. Jumayah, my nurse, took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door, she stoped so I could catch my breath. I was then brought [in] while the Messenger of God was sitting on a bed in our house. [My mother] made me sit on his lap and then said, "Thes are your relatives. May God bless you with them and bless them with you!" Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me...


    Some from various hadith collections:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Abu Dawud:
    Chapter 32/33. Regarding The Marriage Of The Young
    2121.'Aishah narrated: "The
    Messenger of Allah married me
    while I was a girl of seven years"
    - Sulaiman (one of the narrators :J
    said: "or six," - and he
    consummated the marriage when I
    was a girl of nine." (Sahih)
    Jami at-Tirmidhi Vol. 2
    Chapter 19. What Has Been
    Related About Coercing A
    Female Orphan To Marry
    1109 pg480
    Ahmad and Ishaq said that when
    the orphan girl reaches nine years of
    age, and she is given in marriage and
    she approves, then the marriage is
    allowed, and she does not have a
    choice to permit or to annul it when
    she reaches puberty. They argued
    using the Hadith of 'Aishah that the
    Prophetç consummated his
    marriage with her when she was nine
    years of age,111 and 'Aishah has
    said: "When a girl reaches nine years
    of age then she is a woman."

    Sunan Ibn Majah Vol. 3
    Chapter 13. Marriage Of
    Minor Girls Arranged By
    Their Fathers
    1876. It was narrated that
    'Aishah said: "The Messenger of
    Allah manied me whqn I was
    srx years old. Then we came to
    Al-Madinah and settled among
    Banu Harith bin Khazraj. I
    'became ill and my hair fell out,
    then it grew back and became
    abundant. My mother Umm
    Ruman came to me while I was
    on an urjuhah1 with some of my
    friends, and called for me I went
    .to her, and I did not know what
    she wanted She took me by the
    hand and made me stand at the
    door of the house, and I was
    panting. When I got my breath
    back, she took some water and
    wiped my face and head, and led
    me mto the house. There were
    some woman of the Ansar insrde
    the house, and they said: 'With
    the blessings and good fortune
    (from Allah).' (My mother)
    handed me over to them and they
    tidted me up. And suddenly I saw
    the Messenger of Allah in the
    morning. And she handed me
    over to him and I was at that
    time, nine years old " (Sahih)

    Sunan an-Nasai Vol. 4
    Chapter 29. A Man Marrying
    Off His Young Daughter
    3257. It was narrated from 'Aishah
    that the Messenger of Allah
    married her when she was six years
    old, and consummated the
    marriage with her when she was
    nine. (Sahih)
    Comments:
    There is absolutely no difference of opinion concerning contracting marriage
    of one's non-adult or minor daughter. The disagreement, however, exists in
    the matter whether the daughter has the right to retain the mamage or not,
    when she reaches puberty. But the girl has the right to dissolve her marriage
    when she attains puberty, if the marriage contract was made effective by a
    guardian other than her father. There is consensus over it.


    3258. It was narrated that 'Aishah
    said: "The Messenger of Allah
    married me when I was seven years
    old, and he consummated the
    I marriage with me when I was
    nine." (Sahih)
    Comments:
    There is no conflict between six and seven. She had attained the age of six
    years. The seventh year had commenced.

    Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 5
    63. The Merits of al-Ansar
    (44) CHAPTER. The marriage of the
    Prophet with 'Aishah and
    'Aishah's arrival at Al-Madina, and the
    Prophet's consummation of that marriage.
    3894. Narrated 'Aishah: My
    marriage (wedding) contract with the
    Prophet was written when I was a girl of
    six (years). We came to Al-Madina and we
    dismounted at the place of Bani Al-Harith
    bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell
    down. Later on, my hair grew (again) and my
    mother, Umm Raman, came to me while I
    was playing in a swing with some of my girl
    friends. She called me, and I went to her, not
    knowing what she wanted to do to me. She
    caught me by the hand and made me stand at
    the door of the house. I was breathless then,
    and when my breathing became normal, she
    took some water and rubbed my face and
    head with it. Then she took me into the
    house. There in the house I saw some Ansari
    women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's
    Blessing and good luck." Then she
    entrusted me to them and they prepared me
    (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's
    Messenger came to me in the forenoon
    and my mother handed rnr over to him, and
    at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.




    3896. Narrated Hishãm's father: Khadija
    died three years before the Prophet
    departed to Al-Madina. He stayed there for
    two years or so and then he wrote the
    marriage (wedding) contract with 'Aishah
    when she was a girl of six years of age, and he
    consummated that marriage when she was nine
    years old

  10. #30

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    I quoted both Tabari and a variety of hadith.
    Your denials are meaningless.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    I get it now. Islamic law states puberty. You think Aisha and Mohammed consummated their marriagewhen she was 6 or 9. They were betrothed then according to the sources with a small ceremony. Happened all over Europe into the 1800s. Super common.

    Your mistake.
    I clearly state that Islam allowed marriage and sex BEFORE puberty. You.deliberately ignored what I said.

    1. The Hadirhs clearly state that Muhammad commsumated the marriage with Aisha while she was 9, which was BEFORE puberty Al Bukhari Vol 7 Book 62 Hadith 65 https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/70

    2. The devout Muslim.country od Iran allows for marriages of girls young.a 10 (which is before puberty) https://www.newsweek.com/un-condemns...oung-10-423435 https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/child-marriage/iran/ https://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/marriage-o...child-in-iran/

    The devout Muslim country of Iran allows marriage wit girl as young as 9 lunar years.

    3. The Quran recognizes marriage of girls before they started menstruating (i.e. not reached puberty) since it gives the waiting period on divorcing those girls Koran 65:4. Note, there is no waiting period for divorce if the marriage was not consumated, so that means the marriagez with these girls who had not.reached puberty had been consumated. This is consistent with thr Hadith Muhammad sex with 9 year Aisha.


    You have not answered either my question or Infidel144's on the Christian sources of the Hadith. Failure to provide a source to back up your claims is an admission you were lying when you made the claim.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; August 14, 2020 at 11:00 PM. Reason: typo

  12. #32

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    The gospel of Mary say Jesus was married to Mary. I guess thats a fact too. Using sources written centuries later as fact is silly to me. The reality is we don't know much about Mohammed. We know he existed, which is more than we can say about Jesus. But pinning down specifics from his life just isn't going to happen. I could quote you the relevant Islamic law but meh, you would ignore it.

    You asked a Christian country where people still marry 9 year olds. Ethiopia.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Using sources written centuries later as fact is silly to me.
    That is a very strange assertion.
    In post 27 you actually claim "You think Aisha and Mohammed consummated their marriagewhen she was 6 or 9. They were betrothed then according to the sources with a small ceremony."
    And follow it up by saying "Your mistake".
    Now, you don't actually provide any sources.
    Unlike, say, me, who quoted (some of) the sources.
    You are 'relying' on "the sources" (which, again, you don't actually provide) to make your (unsupported) assertion, and when the sources are actually quoted, and they contradict your assertion, you claim it is "silly" to use them.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    I am a wild hypocrite often but in this case I meant according to the sources on islamic practices at the time, not according to sources on the life of mohammed.

    That was unclear. My mistake.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    I am a wild hypocrite often but in this case I meant according to the sources on islamic practices at the time, not according to sources on the life of mohammed.

    That was unclear. My mistake.
    Ah, I see so these contemporaneous but still mysterious Islamic sources, that aren't on the life of Muhammed but detail the contemporaneous Islamic practices, say that Muhammed and Aisha were only betrothed when Aisha was 6 or 9, but Muhammed did not consummate the marriage until after Aisha was older than nine....

  16. #36

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    From wiki on the debate "Some traditional hadith sources state that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of 6 or 7; other sources say she was 9 when she had a small marriage ceremony; some sources put the date in her teens; but both the date and her age at marriage and later consummation with Muhammad in Medina are sources of controversy and discussion amongst scholars."

    There are also lots of sources on the muslim world at the time. Just not the life of mohammed. I am not telling you anything you don't know. Don't blame me for what we have and don't have. I am not responsible.

    Throughout history marriages happened in arabic culture long before mohammed but weren't consummated until puberty.

    Mohammed marrie Aisha so Abu Bakr could be family. The history of Europe is riddled with such marriages. Most grown men aren't looking to 6 year olds. That your and common's default argument is they are is disturbing.

    Greek history, Arabic, Roman, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Russian, European the world over. I get it. You really want Mohammed to have ed a 6 year old and for Jesus to have never ed anyone.

    Both are almost certainly not true.
    Last edited by wanderwegger; August 14, 2020 at 11:38 PM.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Using sources written centuries later as fact is silly to me.
    This is a somewhat bizarre angle to take in a discussion about the content of the Hadith. In fact, I'd be willing to go out on a limb and claim that each Hadith was written precisely when it was written, and not centuries later, regardless of when that was. I'd further argue, and I don't think this is too radical, that the best source regarding the content of each Hadith is that Hadith itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    There are also lots of sources on the muslim world at the time.
    This is simply not true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  18. #38

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    From wiki on the debate "Some traditional hadith sources state that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of 6 or 7; other sources say she was 9 when she had a small marriage ceremony; some sources put the date in her teens; but both the date and her age at marriage and later consummation with Muhammad in Medina are sources of controversy and discussion amongst scholars."

    Well, I quoted a sampling of hadith that give 6 or 7 as the 'betrothal' and 9 when the marriage was consummated. But I have not noticed any hadith that put Aisha in her teens. Some modern scholars find it controversial..

    There are also lots of sources on the muslim world at the time. Just not the life of mohammed.
    Again with the mysterious uncited sources, that there are lots of, contemporaneously dealing with the practices of Moslem world (which was very small at the time Muhammed and Aisha married), but not the life of Mohammed.
    I am not telling you anything you don't know.
    That can not be the case, after all I have been reliably informed that I clearly "know nothing of the Hadiths or how the study of history works".

    Don't blame me for what we have and don't have.
    What "we have" is me quoting sources, and you quot... hmmm... you making assertions.
    I am not responsible.
    Yes, well...

    Throughout history marriages happened in arabic culture long before mohammed but weren't consummated until puberty.

    Mohammed marrie Aisha so Abu Bakr could be family. The history of Europe is riddled with such marriages. Most grown men aren't looking to 6 year olds. That your and common's default argument is they are is disturbing.

    Greek history, Arabic, Roman, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Russian, European the world over. I get it. You really want Mohammed to have ed a 6 year old and for Jesus to have never ed anyone.

    Both are almost certainly not true.
    And a bunch attempts to change the subject...

  19. #39

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    This is a somewhat bizarre angle to take in a discussion about the content of the Hadith. In fact, I'd be willing to go out on a limb and claim that each Hadith was written precisely when it was written, and not centuries later, regardless of when that was. I'd further argue, and I don't think this is too radical, that the best source regarding the content of each Hadith is that Hadith itself.

    This is simply not true.

    Not arguing the content as having been written, arguing using the content as historical fact. And fair on the sources. How about there are some sources on or referencing the Muslim world at the time, as well as evidence from other academic fields, while Mohammed’s life is a black hole of nearly nothing in contemporary sources. Acceptable?

  20. #40

    Default Re: Did the Muslims who created the hadith secretly hate Muhammad and Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Not arguing the content as having been written, arguing using the content as historical fact.
    The Hadith which claim that Aisha was nine years old when the marriage was consummated are those that are considered saḥīḥ (authentic or correct) by Muslim religious scholars, that is the most reliable of Hadith classifications. If the claim is not historically accurate, it begs the question as to why early Muslims would have invented the story. Which is exactly the OP's question.

    If the stories about the age of consummation of the marriage are not true, and were against acceptable social practice in the early Muslim community, I can't understand why they would have persisted, but since this is the Ethos, Mores et Monastica sub-forum rather than Vestigia Vetustatis sub-forum, the fact that mainstream Muslim scholarship considers these Hadith authentic is arguably more relevant than whether or not they are historically accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    And fair on the sources. How about there are some sources on or referencing the Muslim world at the time, as well as evidence from other academic fields, while Mohammed’s life is a black hole of nearly nothing in contemporary sources. Acceptable?
    I'm not aware of any contemporary sources on the social context of the life of Muhammad that would shed any light on the discussion. Those sources closest to the time of Muhammad are the Muslim sources, such as the Hadith and Ibn Ishaq (who says the same).

    From a strictly historical perspective, it really isn't an issue of major concern. It becomes more of an issue for those who believe Muhammad's life to be the ultimate model of moral behavior based on Al-Aḥzāb 33:21, and naturally, for those critical of Islam.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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