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Thread: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

  1. #21

    Default Re: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

    For those who oppose ICC as a place to try international crimes, what is their suggesting regarding putting American soldiers on trial for their conduct in Afghanistan?
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  2. #22

    Default Re: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

    A preferral of charges to the judge advocate general for violations of the UCMJ for criminal acts.

  3. #23

    Default Re: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

    That's supposed to be impartial?
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  4. #24

    Default Re: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

    I've sat for a dozen verdicts and sentencing in those courts, and yes. Yes they are. And if foreigners don't think they are impartial, I don't care.

  5. #25

    Default Re: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    I've sat for a dozen verdicts and sentencing in those courts, and yes. Yes they are. And if foreigners don't think they are impartial, I don't care.
    Yeah, i'm going to need something more concrete than a personal opinion, but if we were to give credence to your opinion, then the USG should have no issues with European ICC Prosecutors judging Americans considering that Europeans who were part of the ISDF missions in A-stan, and can also provide key eyewitness testimony to atrocities committed by Americans.

  6. #26

    Default Re: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

    I don't care.

  7. #27

    Default Re: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    I don't care.
    Obviously, you care enough to have something to say.

    As it is, war criminals, African warlords, Milosevic etc didn't care about international laws as well but the ICC cares and thusly they were summarily brought to justice.

    Sanctions on ICC betray guilty conscience: China Daily editorial

    chinadaily.com.cn | Updated: 2020-06-14 20:43






    US troops patrol at an Afghan National Army Base in Logar province, Afghanistan, on Aug 7, 2018. [Photo/Agencies] Washington has gone too far in authorizing sanctions against International Criminal Court staff just because of the court's investigation into US troops, intelligence officials and those of allied nations, including those of Israel, for possible war crimes in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
    The sanctions will block the financial assets of the court employees and bar them and their relatives from entering the United States.
    The US revoked the visa of the court's chief prosecutor, Fatou Bensouda, last year after she asked ICC judges to open an investigation into alleged war crimes in Afghanistan.
    The court has 123 member states, and the US has never been its member. But that does not mean that the US should be an outlaw in the international community nor does it give it the right to impose sanctions on an independent international judicial institution such as the ICC.
    Established in 2002, the court's mission is to prosecute war crimes and crimes against humanity and genocide in places where perpetrators might not otherwise face justice.
    By imposing sanctions on the ICC staff, the US has ridden roughshod over the rule of law in the international community. That US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo even denounced the tribunal as a "kangaroo court" points to the fact that the US has no respect for international justice.
    Pompeo said that the US cannot allow ICC officials and their families to come to the US to shop and travel and otherwise enjoy American freedoms as these same officials seek to prosecute the defender of those very freedoms.
    If what he said is not tongue in cheek, he should feel shame for bragging about the "American freedoms", which include the freedom to launch wars against any countries it dislikes and the freedom to impose sanctions against any country or any individual who it feels has offended the US in one way or another.
    Washington's latest announcement shows that it considers the US also has the freedom to punish any international institution or individual who dares to open a cupboard where it is trying to conceal a skeleton.
    That the US is so sensitive to the ICC's investigation betrays its guilty conscience. It is reasonable to assume therefore that Washington must know that there are war crimes that have been committed by its troops or intelligence officers or those of its allied nations in Afghanistan.
    As such an investigation would do no discredit to the reputation of the US but only vindicate what it has done in Afghanistan. If there have been no war crimes committed by allied forces, Washington would have no reason to be so afraid of the ICC's investigation.


    Source: http://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/20...817252e5d.html

  8. #28

    Default Re: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

    So you're fine with pressing other countries that defy American Globolhomo hegemony, but when that same court even tries to put to trial America's own baby killers then its bad? lmao.

  9. #29

    Default Re: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_guy_4_you View Post
    So you're fine with pressing other countries that defy American Globolhomo hegemony, but when that same court even tries to put to trial America's own baby killers then its bad? lmao.
    I think the term you were looking for is globohomo.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The appeal to hypocrisy doesn't really work though. The US government is in fact quite consistent. International organisations are supported when they are perceived to be serving US interests and condemned when they are not.

    In this case, US officials are hardly "panicked". On the contrary, the ICC is effectively powerless relative to the US, so the situation simply serves as an opportunity for US politicians to talk tough for domestic consumption, without concern for any consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  10. #30

    Default Re: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    I've sat for a dozen verdicts and sentencing in those courts, and yes. Yes they are. And if foreigners don't think they are impartial, I don't care.
    Your personal experience and whether you care or not is not something we care about. International actions should be put on trial by international bodies with full transparency.
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

    To be fair the Hague can be a bit of a joke. Plenty of patsies have been sent down for their rubber stamp for example from the 1990's Balkan Wars, and the big boys just ignore it. It wasn't used however for the Nazis or Japanese in WWII, as the WAllies and Stalin didn't want even a semblance of impartiality which the Hague occasionally exhibits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    The US is not a signatory to the Treaty of Rome and unilateral alien judgments, treaties or "agreements" are facially unconstitutional and not recognized.
    Weird statement, the ICC is an organ of the UN not the EU, and the US helped establish it (like they did with the previous entity after WWI): in fact they have (voluntarily) plead cases there. Pretty sure the US constitution allows the state to make treaties but whatever. I think you're blowing smoke to make the thread a mess.

    The US would ignore any accusations like they did when their spineless Congress passed the PATRIOT Act allowing torture and other barbaric measures.

    On a side note I saw a hypothetical between two Australian lawyers on the subject "Is George W Bush a War Criminal?" and the defence won easily. Its amazing people think there's such a thing as justice other than that we force to happen.

    I'd be very surprised if some US soldiers haven't committed atrocities, they are brave and patriotic citizens sent to do hard and horrible work and it sends men mad. That hypocritical administration has used honest fighting men for their filthy money making crap.

    We have had some very elite and celebrated soldiers accused to atrocious acts against harmless civilians, prisoners etc. and why would out allies be any different? I feel sad for any victims and sad for the soldiers who have been bent out of human shape by war.
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  12. #32

    Default Re: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Weird statement, the ICC is an organ of the UN not the EU, and the US helped establish it (like they did with the previous entity after WWI): in fact they have (voluntarily) plead cases there. Pretty sure the US constitution allows the state to make treaties but whatever. I think you're blowing smoke to make the thread a mess.
    He is referring to the Rome Statute, which established the ICC.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Well I'm a nationalist so yes, my country comes before some international kangaroo court. I don't want foreigners policing my country, we will hopefully handle our own .
    But right now US is just policing Afghanistan and Iran and .... ?

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  14. #34

    Default Re: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Weird statement, the ICC is an organ of the UN not the EU, and the US helped establish it (like they did with the previous entity after WWI): in fact they have (voluntarily) plead cases there.
    As if I would even bother posting here if it was the EU trying to impose jurisdiction over the United States. The U.S. helped establish the league of nations and then didn't even join it, so that point is automatically moot, finally, availing yourself of a Court in one case does not submit you to its jurisdiction in other distinct cases, at least not in any conception of English common law jurisprudence, which is the only jurisprudence I care about, but moving on...

    Pretty sure the US constitution allows the state to make treaties but whatever. I think you're blowing smoke to make the thread a mess.
    Read. I'd explain it to you but then I'd have to bill you for the privilege.

    The US would ignore any accusations like they did when their spineless Congress passed the PATRIOT Act allowing torture and other barbaric measures.
    Ignore what exactly? And not a fan of the Patriot Act, you need to stop synthesizing everything American into some monolithic pro-Bush conspiracy theory.

    On a side note I saw a hypothetical between two Australian lawyers on the subject "Is George W Bush a War Criminal?" and the defence won easily. Its amazing people think there's such a thing as justice other than that we force to happen.
    Interesting, but I don't care. If GW Bush was to be tried for any crimes he must be subject to US law and criminal procedure. I don't know what the legal system is like in Australia. I'm not interested in outcomes. I don't particularly like GW Bush. I'm far more interested in maintaining the integrity of US institutions and law. I'm not invested in the potential outcome of a trial of someone I don't think has clean hands.

    I'd be very surprised if some US soldiers haven't committed atrocities, they are brave and patriotic citizens sent to do hard and horrible work and it sends men mad. That hypocritical administration has used honest fighting men for their filthy money making crap.
    They did and they have. I was at the sentencing phase for one of those trials. Some of the cases were very prominent in the US.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    The ICC wasn't set up just to indict african warlords and milosevic, it was set up precisely to prevent the emergence of another nazi state
    The ICC is a total joke, people who were waging wars and attacking, bombing, invading independent and sovereign countries during the 1990s and early 2000s and supporting terrorist
    groups to invade sovereign territories of other countries NEVER got charged and let alone prosecuted... This is most obvious and disgusting perversion of justice in the last 50 years.

    You have degenerate liars, cheaters hypocrites and scumbags like Tony Blair, Madeleine Albright, Xavier Solana, Wesley Clark, Bill Clinton and other killers who have bombed, butchered, terrorized,
    bullied and destroyed entire countries and they have never answered for their crimes, ever.

    As a matter of fact the situation is even more grotesque, we have that known killer Tony Blair going around the world and charging a hefty fee for guest speaking, hey the man is a murderer
    and he should be sitting in a prison cell somewhere serving multiple life sentences and not enjoy cocktail parties and "panel discussions"!

    So of course that ICC is a total joke, travesty of justice and neo-liberal tool to deflect the spotlight from their own despicable crimes!
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  16. #36
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    Default Re: International Criminal Court To Investigate US War Crimes in Afghanistan; US Officials Furious & Panicking

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    As if I would even bother posting here if it was the EU trying to impose jurisdiction over the United States. The U.S. helped establish the league of nations and then didn't even join it, so that point is automatically moot, finally, availing yourself of a Court in one case does not submit you to its jurisdiction in other distinct cases, at least not in any conception of English common law jurisprudence, which is the only jurisprudence I care about, but moving on...
    You'e the one who mentioned the Treaty of Rome, you're either blowing smoke or speaking from ignorance and neither helps the conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Read. I'd explain it to you but then I'd have to bill you for the privilege.
    Given your confusion about the treaty of Rome I wonder if the advice would be worth the money? Jk i a sure you are a competent lawyer. and you are just trying the stink up the thread.

    Thanks for the link, the stuff about the Native American treaties is quite interesting. My brief and ignorant gloss is the US as a state can make treaties that will bind its citizens, although the complexity of the Constitution and constitutional interpretation means there are a number of tests including passing domestic laws before it necessarily happens, so you could have just said "yes you've understood in an oversimplified way".

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Ignore what exactly? And not a fan of the Patriot Act, you need to stop synthesizing everything American into some monolithic pro-Bush conspiracy theory.
    I get the "my country right or wrong" line (I foolishly adhere to it myself). We get to say our system is not a monolith, but we get to dismiss the rest of the world's ideas about justice as a monolith. In Australia we have to do so more cautiously because the US carries a bigger stick.

    Theoretically our system is sillier as its about God giving some German lady in England god-given right to make laws (but only when burghers and barons tell her too), whereas yours has a more rational test of truths that were self evident in the late 18th century...when it doesn't rest of the power of said German lady's Scots and Welsh forebears, also with God given power etc etc. (the Whig myth about Cpommon Law being german tribal law having being demolished, ts a weird mix of Franco-Norman military/civil systems).

    I also understand blaming the last guy works well in US politics (as it does here). Trumps cabinet is dominated by the Oil Boys like Bushes (and good guy Obama kept all those forever wars ticking over) was so there is an air of corporate responsibility that goes beyond the Congress still containg members who voted for the PATRIOT Act.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Interesting, but I don't care. If GW Bush was to be tried for any crimes he must be subject to US law and criminal procedure. I don't know what the legal system is like in Australia. I'm not interested in outcomes. I don't particularly like GW Bush. I'm far more interested in maintaining the integrity of US institutions and law. I'm not invested in the potential outcome of a trial of someone I don't think has clean hands.
    I'm pointing our the ICC lacks the auctoritas to collar or judge even as egregious a chump as Bush or Kennedy. At the hypothetical I asked one of the lawyers "is the necessary and sufficient condition for a trial at the ICC US public outrage?" and he spluttered no, then conceded "well...yes". Its not that simple but largely the ICC hands out judgements on behalf of (factions in) the US.

    The reality is the US does as it wishes because it can. The ICC is not a foreign alien body threatening US hegemony, it often reinforces US hegemony with an appearance of justice as it was created to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    They did and they have. I was at the sentencing phase for one of those trials. Some of the cases were very prominent in the US.
    They are good for discipline, if you let your boys get away with atrocities they can bring the madness home.
    Last edited by Cyclops; June 17, 2020 at 07:05 PM.
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