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Thread: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

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    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
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    Default [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    After some time seeing praefects in action and some refferals pass through, I think that at least one point deserves some quick and easy clarification.

    Text in question:
    Section III - Praefects, Censors, and Magistrates
    Article I. The Triumvirate and ReferralsCitizens are expected to behave in an exemplary manner and can be referred1 to the Praefects for a review of their behavior and possible disciplinary action. Such a Referral is initiated automatically by Moderation for infractions incurred, or discretionally by Citizens for behavior considered unbecoming. Praefects may decide if a referral is frivolous. If a referral has merit, the Praefects request a defense2 from the referred and decides3 whether4 and which5 disciplinary action is to be taken.6

    The original intent of this clause was meant to convey that praefects had the ability to, upon receiving and reviewing a referral initially, decide without a formal poll to dismiss it as frivolous. What constitutes frivolous in these cases is open to some interpretation intentionally, but my intent behind the wording at creation of the overhaul bill was to target specifically those referrals that one might chalk up to that other kid on the playground who shoved you and now you're tattling to the recess teacher on him. To stop such things from taking up time in the referral process.

    However, I think to avoid too much confusion, and be sure there is some explicit sort of "vote" in the process, I'd like to rephrase and alter it slightly to ensure that the praefects must post explicitly an intent to "Dismiss" a referral, without the need for the poll to be added. I would also like to clarify that the intent was that this had to be a unanimous decision to dismiss a referral, otherwise it should be carried out normally. This should now be clear, and some text further down should reflect that there will only be one formal poll created in the process.

    A lot of this is quite minor overall I'd say, but enough to clarify an important point and avoid the process being done unintentionally wrong. Seeing as I wrote the first iteration it's only right I try to fix that. I also cannot fix these ing piece of superscript numbers from this ing tablet correctly for the life of me so please pretend those are all bumped up one number for the added line.

    New Changes:
    Section III - Praefects, Censors, and MagistratesArticle I. The Triumvirate and ReferralsCitizens are expected to behave in an exemplary manner and can be referred1 to the Praefects for a review of their behavior and possible disciplinary action. Such a Referral is initiated automatically by Moderation for infractions incurred, or discretionally by Citizens for behavior considered unbecoming. Praefects may decide if a referral is frivolous2, and decide to dismiss. If a referral has merit, the Praefects request a defense from the referred and decide3 whether4 and which5 disciplinary action is to be taken.6



    Regulations and Procedures to Section III


    1 No Citizen may be subject to more than one Referral for a single post.

    ​2 After receiving a referral, the Praefects may informally vote to dismiss the case if deemed frivolous, i.e. lacking completeness or objectively without merit for the referral process. All praefects, if not having to recuse themselves, must at a minimum post their intent to "Dismiss" the case, otherwise it will be brought to a full referral process. This dismissal can be done and completed before or after a defense is received at the Primus Praefect's discretion.

    3
    The defendant receives an anonymous copy of the accusation from the Praefects. Any defense must be provided within ninety-six hours of the request. At the request of the referred, the Praefects also accept materials provided on behalf of the referred. Such materials shall be posted until the first poll is concluded until a decision for dismissal or continuation is reached, and must be considered by the Triumvirate in the poll, if such a poll is required.

    4 A simple majority of non-abstaining votes is required to pass. Where two options have the same number of votes, the Consul or Praefect breaks the tie. Votes submitted by members of the Triumvirate shall be accompanied by a post stating which option the member selected, along with their reasoning.

    5 Four days after requesting a defense, regardless of whether it has been received, and if not dismissed, a vote is opened by a Praefect to conclude after four days with the options to dismiss the Referral take further action, or abstain.

    6 If the Citizens' Triumvirate vote to take further action, a Praefect opens a second poll for four days. The options are:
    • Censure
    • Suspension of Citizenship for 1 month
    • Suspension of Citizenship for 2 months
    • Suspension of Citizenship for 4 months
    • Suspension of Citizenship for 6 months
    • Revocation of Citizenship
    • Abstain

    Last edited by Akar; June 08, 2020 at 06:27 PM.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    Support.

    I also fixed the superscript stuff for you.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    Can you change the font colour pls?



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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    Support



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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    Makes perfect sense to me-a handy pointer for the praefects.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    As long I can't read the text I cannot oppose or support or abstain, so please change the text color.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Can you change the font colour pls?
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    Just select it and it will appear

    Edit: ninja-ed by Akar

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    I cannot get changes to save for most formatting, suppose that's what I get for doing this on a tablet on the road.

    If Akar can work more magic on it go for it

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    Edited the post for you, Hader.

    Let me know if that looks better guys.

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    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    Looks good to me. Certainly better than it is now. Both the text and the changes itself.

    How many Praefects are there supposed to be by the way? I looked in the constitution, but while it stated there were two Censors, I couldn't find a number for Praefects.

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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    I think it has in the past depended on how many were required. There have been more than two before, right now we just have two spots. I'm not sure what the conditions or circumstances are for there to be more or less added. Probably a question for Hader.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    It isn't referenced in the first place the constitution talks about praefects, where it says two censors, but does reference 3 praefects later on a couple times and old references of the triumvirate. Given this and that it has been done with 3 since inception, perhaps it can be allowed a small edit by the consul to clarify that in Section 1 Article 2 where it is first mentioned as well.

    Keep in mind, 3 praefects includes the primus praefect.

  13. #13
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    Sound alright to me. Support.

    A little typo I stumbled upon while looking for the Praefects numbers:

    5 Four days after requesting a defense, regardless of whether it has been received, and if not dismissed, a vote is opened by a Praefects to conclude after four days with the options to dismiss the Referral take further action, or abstain.
    Last edited by Veteraan; June 06, 2020 at 07:30 PM.

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    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    Two praefects in total would be enough, as there isn't so much traffic in the curia and so less to do.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; June 06, 2020 at 06:29 PM.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    Thank's for pointing out that typo, Veteraan. I've fixed it in the OP.

    @Morticia

    Two seems like enough to me too. The latest series of repeated elections is an abnormality and I don't think it's necessary to make any changes for a problem that will likely be fixed in 4 days when the next Praefect is elected.
    Last edited by Akar; June 06, 2020 at 06:32 PM.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    support

  17. #17
    Caillagh de Bodemloze's Avatar to rede I me delyte
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    I suspect the first sentence of point 2 in the Regulations and Procedures should be deleted, since it's duplicated from point 1 (and therefore isn't needed in point 2, because it's already been established that people can only be referred once for a given post):

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    1 No Citizen may be subject to more than one Referral for a single post.

    ​2 No Citizen may be subject to more than one Referral for a single post. After receiving a referral, the Praefects may informally vote to dismiss the case if deemed frivolous, i.e. lacking completeness or objectively without merit for the referral process. All praefects, if not having to recuse themselves, must at a minimum post their intent to "Dismiss" the case, otherwise it will be brought to a full referral process. This dismissal can be done and completed before or after a defense is received at the Primus Praefect's discretion.
    I also found a typo in the main text of the article:

    If a referral has merit, the Praefects request a defense2 from the referred and decides3

    It should be 'decide', since there's more than one Praefect.






  18. #18
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    I support this.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    Support

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    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Referral Clarifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Caillagh de Bodemloze View Post
    I suspect the first sentence of point 2 in the Regulations and Procedures should be deleted, since it's duplicated from point 1 (and therefore isn't needed in point 2, because it's already been established that people can only be referred once for a given post):



    I also found a typo in the main text of the article:

    If a referral has merit, the Praefects request a defense2 from the referred and decides3

    It should be 'decide', since there's more than one Praefect.
    Should all be fixed now.

    Except the superscripts...Akar that's on you now.

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