Demo: First impressions

[Abdülmecid I]

Cody Bonds' review is the most informative and negative of those that I have so far watched:



I was a bit surprised about how critical he was, since Cody has been notoriously positive towards Creative Assembly, for example during his interview with Jack Lusted and his rare appreciation for Throb. Some of the issues he mentions sound indeed worrying, like the invincible units, the overpowered legendary lords/monsters and the magical abilities. Because, let's be frank, I don't think reviving your dead soldiers with the push of a button is very close to the concept of the truth behind the myth. Divine favour also seems to work in multiple ways, not all of them very suitable for the explanation CA had originally provided (it basically functioned like a placebo tablet). I also smiled a bit at how the marketing team promotes grass and mud as completely new features, despite them having already been introduced in Rome I and Medieval II, which common wisdom says they are so terribly overrated, in comparison to the more recent titles...

Anyway, I'm still going to play it in August, as I wholeheartedly approve of offering it for free, but my expectations are currently lower than Three Kingdoms' retention rates. Given the relatively lack of experience, small numbers and minimum wages of the Bulgarian studio, as well as Saga's limited scope and ambition, I never thought highly of Troy, but that honestly looks like an inevitable shipwreck. I understand that Saga serves primarily as a diversion and experiment, but the franchise is in danger of becoming so toxic that no Fall of the Samurais is going to save its fragile reputation.

[alhoon]

I would say:
- I agree with what you say and how this may seal the toxic name of the Saga series, I think that will be the last saga title.

- I Disagree with the review!!! I wanted something like that. I am, as the review says, the minority that is not too pro-fantasy nor too pro-realism. I like there are supernatural effects and I like they are not too far to be age of mythology total war.
The graphics are to my eyes exceptionally good whether they are 5-year old or more. Everything that looks as good as S2TW is very good IMO, so I guess... 8-9 years old graphics are near the top of my standard. Yes, once he zoomed in and showed the differences in the textures between the high quality and poor quality I noticed them. Else I wouldn't.
I understand the argument "I make videos out of them" but ... this doesn't apply to me, it applies to him.

- The "battle was 3 minutes long" can be rectified exactly as we did in R2TW and S2TW: Increase the hp of the units. Not the radious mod crap of micromanaging defense and armor and such, but simply, double the hp which takes 10-15 minutes.

- Even if that doesn't cut it, the premise seems interesting that I would approach this game as something different than R2TW and S2TW etc. If the battles are 5-6 minute things, I will go with that.

- I actually like that easy was ridiculously easy and that the hardest setting was too hard. It seems that normal is for me. Not for Napoleons that have mastered total war games, but for me that don't want to pay too much attention on a game or strategy. Me the casual.

- Hector beats Achilles easily: Ehh... OK, so what? Yes, yes, I would prefer if it was more balanced. One could buff Achilles or lower Hector's prowess. If the Myceneans have more powerful stuff in their roaster, their hero doesn't have to be as powerful.

Frankly, the only thing that concerns me in this is the "ignore flanking" for heavy units and "put shield behind" abilities, but I expect both can be modded out by simply removing those abilities.

I will probably catch this game in Epic Games for free... and then pay for it in steam when I get it on a sale, because I prefer Steam workshop etc. Because, IMO, this game deserves it. It's a game that seems much better than I thought for me. Not too big in scope, with interesting action.
And having said that: Yes, I realize that my views, expectations and such don't align with the majority.



And now the question that is burning inside me:
Are those things in the 3K too? The kinda-supernatural heroes? I will have some money soon-ish and if they are, I will totally get 3Kingdoms as after watching this, I decided I want to play something like this. Too large scope? So what? I will drop the game once I hit late game and restart.

[douglas]

I seldom, very seldom, base my thoughts on a game on the basis of someone else's opinion. Once the game is finally on Steam I'll probably get it and check it out for myself.

[AHumpierRogue]

I don't get why he went on some tirade about wielding your spear with two hands. Obviously wielding it with 2 hands rather than one allows you more control over your spear and allows you to apply more force in your attacks. And there is literally art from this period showing Mycenean warriors wearing their shields on their backs and wielding their spears with two hands, so clearly the Myceneans, you know, the subjects of the game, thought that wielding your spear with two hands was fine so we should probably listen to them. I do think though that the spears are a bit short, they hold the spears way too low, need to make them a bit longer and adjust their grip to hold it higher up the shaft.

[Alwyn]

It sounds like there are some balancing issues, as usual for a new release. Cody said the battles were 3-minutes long, this seems to have been in the context of playing on Easy. PartyElite's battles lasted longer.



I enjoyed watching these Troy battles by PartyElite, his commentary is very good.

While I can see where the criticism of unbreakable units and magic abilities is coming from, PartyElite's commentary suggests that tactics we'd use in historical games are useful in Troy. He shows how flanking, rear charges, surprise attacks by hidden units and 'hammer and anvil' moves can be effective. In the first battle, he relies on hiding his archers in long grass on one flank while putting most of his army on the other. In the second battle, I enjoyed seeing his tactics, such as drawing in an enemy melee unit with fire from skirmishers, then pulling the skirmishers back and engaging the enemy from one side with hs own melee troops, with skirmishers firing from the other side.

[Daruwind]

Well finally has time to watch it fully too. So for me personally I don´t see many issues but magic abilites of heroes are way over romance mode ala warhammer So "truth behind myth" approach is taking direct hit. Which is curious because the rest of game seems to be without fantasy focus...

And I don´t think game will be trully dead on arrival. "Free" means a lot lot people redeeming the game however we will probably see the quickest, biggest drop-off people after launch. because majority of people getting game won´t be fans of series or strategy at all, majority will get the game because it will be free and will move to the next free game..Still it will probably longer time than for ToB. Well we will see how many DLCs will be planned.

Edit:
Anyway very similar first impression video from Jackie Fish.

[caratacus]

The animations in those battles look awful, the unit cards, the textures are poor, what look like cloned units. This game looks like it is 10 years old for God's sake!

Watching these vids, it feels Total War is like that rock band you grew up listening to as a teenager. The one that you thought was cutting edge music at the time. Then decades later you go to a concert with them performing, to see a group of aged rockers with beer bellies, who can't sing a note and half of which you don't recognise. And you think... "oh know! just retire why don't you!"

[PointOfViewGun]

PartyElite goes in-depth on certain mechanics as he combines his time playing the game and the interview he had with the developers:





One thing I haven't seen anyone mention is how units that are being charged on react. Some kick in coming soldiers or lean forward to strike with their weapons. I can't remember seeing that before.

[gesuntight]

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention is how units that are being charged on react. Some kick in coming soldiers or lean forward to strike with their weapons. I can't remember seeing that before.

Maybe you're talking about something else but especially with the 'expert charge defense' or what it's called this was already in Rome 2. (Kill animations/ stabbing of charging units or charging against the shield of the defending unit etc.)

[PointOfViewGun]

Maybe you're talking about something else but especially with the 'expert charge defense' or what it's called this was already in Rome 2. (Kill animations/ stabbing of charging units or charging against the shield of the defending unit etc.)

I honestly have no recollection of that occurring in previous games. Three Kingdoms definitely seem to have it. I gotta pay more attention.

[Alwyn]

Thanks, Point of View Gun, I enjoyed PartyElite's video. I like the way they're implementing mythical units like minotaurs (as large humans with a fearsome helmet and fighting style, not monsters). There might be a tension between the 'truth behind the myth' style of mythical units - which seems relatively realistic, and the inclusion of magical abilities. I agree with PartyElite's comment in his battle video that, while the healing ability is operating, it would be better if the unit couldn't move and had a combat skills debuff, to represent the warriors binding their wounds (somewhat similar to the ability to repair ships during battle in Napoleon Total War.) The greater emphasis on terrain and unit mass sounds good to me, too.

[PointOfViewGun]

We'll certainly see some tweaks as the build they played was months early. I hope they rethink those abilities. The limited nature of the special units is a good thing. It certainly makes sense that minotaurs or cyclops are just large people wearing special clothing. Imagine the impact Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson (Gregor Clegane, the Mountain, from the Game of the Thrones) would wearing scary clothing would make on the battlefield. I know some people hate heroes having a duel in the middle of the battle as single entities. I'm not that fond of it as well. However, characters like Hector and Achilles deserve special treatment. Perhaps, if they could be attached/unattached to a unit at will during the battle it could be better. I know from the videos that you can give a chariot to your hero and that during the battle when the chariot gets damaged enough your hero will continue fighting on foot.

[Daruwind]

Oh yeah, I noticed that point too. From now on Chariots have separate vehicle health bar which is aside crew health bar...

[Alwyn]

Yes, tweaks will happen and I agree about the abilities and special units. I'm intrigued by the combination of an Area of Recruitment system and the need to achieve favour with certain gods to recruit mythical units. You make a good point about Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson's impact on a battlefield in those circumstances.

Yeah, if duels can be justified anywhere, they can be justified for Troy. Achilles and Hector (as said) and, of course, others such as Paris and Menelaus famously duelled in the Iliad. I like your idea of attaching and unattaching heroes to units, maybe the option of attaching a hero to a chariot is similar to that (or can be modded into something like that).

[Daruwind]

Chariots will be probably similar to artillery pieces from TWs...you can detach crew or pick up weapons lying on the ground...or like siege equipment. :-)

[PointOfViewGun]

To build up on the attaching heroes to units idea: The heroes would still be a single entity unit, but you would have the ability to attach your hero to a particular unit you want. The unit in question would get a moral and perhaps fighting bonus as they'd be honored to fight side by side with Achilles or Hector and they'd want to impress their hero. The hero in turn would get defensive bonuses from incoming charges or arrows. It would also allow the hero to stop incoming enemy forces together with its attached unit as its not realistic for a single hero to stop enemy units in my opinion. Moreover, the hero could enforce different parts of the battlefield as fighting continues. After one gate is successfully defended better to move the hero to the other gate while leaving the exhausted troops that will slow him down. This would add a nice new dynamic.