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Thread: Historical Accuracy

  1. #1

    Default Historical Accuracy

    So let's talk realism.

    First Artillery. Napoleon himself said this was the most important arm of any army and was by far the biggest killer on the battlefield. In this game you can fire forever and never cause any real damage unless it's close range cannister fire which is deadly. However, howitzers don't have cannister which is absurd because they used it all the time during the era. I've seen my lines get hit by shots and all the knocked over 'little figures' simply get back up. I fired my howitzers for 30 minutes into the center of a fort packed with cavalry, guns and men (foolish AI move) and after watching the shells burst all over the concentrations, above and in - I tallied 12 casualties. Absolutely absurd.
    Artillery fire doesn't seem affected by woods, buildings yes, but not woods. Often artillery deploys in woods and fire without hinder. Absurd. You need a clear line of sight to be effective.

    Cavalry. Totally wrong. Biggest error: All the cavalry in the game is hard wired to melee.
    Let's talk just French (all the forces had similar units):

    Cuirassiers were the heavy cavalry fitted with heavy armor and big horses. They carried pistols, sabers and carbines. They were slow and always fought and maneuvered in Column usually by squadrons. They would destroy light cavalry if they could catch them and often deployed to reaction charge or form grand charges with other squadrons. They were most often held in reserve for the final blow because if they charged too soon or without support, they would find themselves exhausted and in the middle of the enemy when they were easily dispatched. Most heavy cavalry was this type and most often used in charges and melee.

    Carabiniers were Heavy cavalry with really large horses and men but not a lot of armor. They carried sabers, pistols, muskets until 1812 then carbines. Not very many (only two French regiments in total) because of cost and requirements to be seasoned and reliable soldiers. They served like Cuirassiers but were mauled by their armored counterparts.

    Dragoons were medium cavalry in a sense and served as mounted but primarily designed as fast moving infantry to reach a point, dismount and hold until the real infantry arrived. In fact, the French had a hard time keeping the dragoons mounted as they were not really horsemen (clumsy fools as the Brits put it) and horses were sometimes in short supply. They carried sabers but didn't really know how to use them very well. Their main weapon was the long dragoon musket for fighting as infantry and later some were equipped with carbines (light dragoons). Used almost exclusively as mounted infantry - almost never as cavalry. Maneuvered in column. They charged in the early years but were not really good at it. Napoleon actually converted and retrained about a third of his dragoons to lancers to counter the Russian cossacks because they just weren't that good as regular cavalry.

    Lancers were light cavalry armed with sabers, pistols and lances. The later being an excellent weapon for dispatching other cavalry and infantry. Maneuvered in column but always charged in a line formation often spreading out as the charge proceeded. Powerful charge but easily countered when they came to a standstill. Get in and get out. All melee type light and fast cavalry.

    Chasseurs were the largest part of the light cavalry forces. They carried sabers, pistols and carbines and could and did dismount at times for fire combat. They were primarily a melee force used for counter charging, flank protection and specifically for pursuit cutting down a fleeing enemy. Often charged in line for envelopment and effect.

    Hussars were light cavalry equipped with sabers, pistols and carbines but they were primarily a skirmish force designed to fire from horseback with their carbines to harass, slow and generally annoy the deployment of enemy forces. They also provided rear guard actions. They are primarily a fire unit though they did harass with their sabers as well. They deployed in skirmish formation and almost always avoided melee except at the end of a battle to chase down routing forces.

    But in this game cavalry is not differentiated AT ALL. Despite being armed and designed as harassing skirmishers or as fire troops, ALL cavalry is hard wired to melee; ALL cavalry forms in one formation; dragoons are very rare; ALL cavalry seems to tire at the same rate; cavalry doesn't seem to be hampered by woods or towns except some slowing. This is so unrealistic. Cavalry wouldn't be caught dead in woods (or they soon would be) unless it was in general order and skirmishing. Hussars do well in woods and towns in general order but heavy cavalry would be useless. That none of the cavalry units can fire weapons is absurd. That charging through woods/towns would succeed is absurd. The cavalry units in this game are not designed historically or realistically. They have the names but not the function. They are simply differentiated by morale and melee value. And the formation is critical and not represented at all. They all maneuvered in column but fought in column, skirmish or line depending on their role.

    Infantry is not differentiated any better than cavalry. They maneuvered in column and deployed in line for fire combat. They rarely moved much in line formation because uneven ground, obstacles, etc. would cause the unit to be constantly stopping to dress the ranks. So they moved in columns they would wheel into a line formation quickly or a square for that matter. And by the way, a square can move too. Not easily but it can move. Infantry also fought in general order in woods and towns not in line or column like this game. And where are the skirmishers? ALL Legere infantry has skirmish companies they could deploy that's why they were Legere and not line infantry. Where are the grenades by grenadiers? Where is the fast moving light infantry? Some are named like that but seem to move the same speed as any other infantry. Light infantry's biggest threat was cavalry which is why they excelled at general order/skirmishing in woods/towns where cavalry (shouldn't) be able to charge them. There is no column or line formation in this game just a blob you can spread out or thicken up but not representative of the real difference in the formations. Line was the fire formation but often infantry would form in column or mixed formation for maximum melee effect. And the type of formation really effects their fire defense especially in column where cavalry and infantry in column could be decimated by cannon balls. Maybe that's why artillery is useless because everybody essentially maneuvers in line. And always running? What is up with that?

    It's a fun game but it's not historical and does not in any way depict the actual differences in types or functionalities of the units or how they were actually used in Napoleonic combat. This game is all driven by numbers. I love it but don't say it's realistic.

  2. #2
    Lord Davn's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Historical Accuracy

    Quote Originally Posted by gdpsnake View Post
    So let's talk realism. It's a fun game but it's not historical and does not in any way depict the actual differences in types or functionalities of the units or how they were actually used in Napoleonic combat. This game is all driven by numbers. I love it but don't say it's realistic.
    We have to work with CA gave us in the original ntw game. The battles were designed to be short and quick dominated by melee combat. We've tried to add historical accuracy to the original game. The units in the NTW3 Classic Battles and Campaign game depict actual units with adjusted stats to make the battles more realistic.
    In the end it's still a game, if it doesn't fit your bill then try something else
    Last edited by Lord Davn; July 23, 2023 at 11:35 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Historical Accuracy

    I'm not sure where you got the bit about dragoons from. They'd stopped being mounted infantry in the early 1700s, at the very latest. There's mentions of "British" Dragoons hardly ever dismounting and keeping only their swords and pistols in the Nine Years War, which took place at the end of 17th century. With dragoons performing cavalry actions in the English Civil War.

    Dragoons wanted to be cavalry. And being Mounted Infantry was not a desirable role.

    And I'm not a dev, but I think I know why none of the cavalry uses pistols. The AI can't use them properly, because the AI doesn't get gun cavalry and pistols don't work well. At best, cavalry armed with pistols can shoot with them while charging, but due to the way NTW works, it doesn't work well.

    If I was making the mod, I'd have some mounted shooters, like Chasseurs au Cheval for more variety in cavalry, but I think I get why they aren't in the game. Because their role isn't entirely clear beyond being light cavalry that can also shoot, like hussars but better.
    Last edited by Lord Davn; July 23, 2023 at 11:36 AM.

  4. #4
    gary's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Historical Accuracy

    The Modders and creators of the game are restricted by the core-game mechanics (which is simple) and therefore are limited to what they can add custom or otherwise. It's an old game and while I agree with most of what the post says, Hussars were just as good at melee and could counter another light cavalry, dragoons were malee cav too. All in all, the game will only let the modders do and create whilst keeping within the game engine. Its the game... not the modders that are at fault. It came out when there was a move away from in-depth RTS to a more simplified, basic arcade experience, the latter drove many devoted fans away from the franchise.
    Last edited by Lord Davn; July 23, 2023 at 11:37 AM.
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  5. #5
    Lord Davn's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Historical Accuracy

    The Dragoon cavalry needs to have two stats for the unit, one as cavalry when mounted and the other as infantry when dismounted. Having two sets of stats for them presented a problem and it was decided to just make them mounted cavalry to simplify the game stats and play-ability.
    Last edited by Lord Davn; July 23, 2023 at 11:37 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Historical Accuracy

    Quote Originally Posted by gdpsnake View Post
    So let's talk realism.
    a load of crap
    Last edited by Lord Davn; July 23, 2023 at 11:40 AM.

  7. #7
    Lord Davn's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Historical Accuracy

    The Napoleon Total War game is a ten years old and has been modded extensively by a number dedicated groups. We work with we have to make it better and in the case of the NTW3 mod, more historically accurate. In the end it is what it is
    Last edited by Lord Davn; July 23, 2023 at 11:41 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Historical Accuracy

    wiki made a lot of people experts
    Last edited by Lord Davn; July 23, 2023 at 11:43 AM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Historical Accuracy

    Quote Originally Posted by gdpsnake View Post
    So let's talk realism.
    a load of crap indeed
    Last edited by Lord Davn; July 23, 2023 at 11:44 AM.

  10. #10
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Historical Accuracy

    French Dragoons did fight on foot sometimes. Like in Wertingen, 8 october 1805, where they capture the town in close quarter fighting, house after house. This was after Napoleon decided to add a Dragoon regiment to the Guard. And indeed, having only one set of stats is a big issue with dismountable units.
    Last edited by Lord Davn; July 23, 2023 at 11:48 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Historical Accuracy

    In terms of unit behaviors (really AI competency) - NTW 3 is working with what CA crafted. So if you have a problem with how the AI handles itself, blame CA, not the modder.

    In terms of some of your points on realism (terrain impacts on unit movement & fighting, unit characteristics) - I highly recommend you play some vanilla and then compare/contrast to NTW3. The NTW3 mod is far and away offers a more refined game-play experience: line-of-sight mechanics; terrain seriously impacts how your units move & fight; cavalry charges into prepared infantry (square or no square) will almost always fail; musketry inaccurate at distance but deadly at close range; etc.

    This mod has realism in spades compared to the original version.
    Last edited by Lord Davn; July 23, 2023 at 11:49 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Historical Accuracy

    I noticed you said Howitzers don't do 'canister'. However they do. At 2 guns a unit they are lacking but... I recently fought a SP battle using Napoleon and his grand battery (yes, they are 12 pound smooth bore guns, but..) the death toll from them was something like 1200+ out of a 20 unit enemy stack of say 3500, 200+ unit infantry size. That wasn't all from canister. The biggest factor using artillery is placement. Get real low-down on deployment and see the lumps and bumps of the ground. what looks smooth usually isn't. The next largest killer is always the cavalry. It's always the same with this game. The rout.

    You say the cavalry doesn't tire faster. That's a lie. I can't stand Cuirassiers for that very reason. Give me a load of Hussar's any day!

    As far as multi purpose cavalry you have a point. The Ruski's have the mounted infantry but I know of no others. I would welcome the return of pistols. (see LME4 comment later)

    It's a real shame Lord Dawn doesn't generate a better SP experience. Having just tried to play LME4 again today I was reminded again of the arcade like experience of it. Click start battle, the entire enemy is revealed and is suddenly rushing towards you at break-net speed regardless off attack or defense situations or needs. It will get uninstalled for s ure - but it does have really nice touches and details. Hate the speed of it though. Playing NTW3 you kinda forget that that 'speed' is the norm with Vanilla and most other mods, indeed TW Games, frantic speed. I'm 49, I'm playing to relax, not have a friggin' heart attack. It's a game. If it's speed I need, I'll get in the car.

    NTW III feels like a war game. Everything is balanced. It has it's faults. I hate how a 4 gun 6 pound cannon crew is 48 guys when a whole battalion is 225. It seems off to me but I'm not the person who put this together. i'm ignorant of it. If we could only have the detailed elements from LME4 incorporated into NTW III for us SP's that would be great. If Multiplayer can be as relaxed as SP I would do that too but my last incursion into MP via flight sims, there was some serious competitive and it was ultimately unenjoyable.
    Last edited by Lord Davn; July 23, 2023 at 11:49 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Historical Accuracy

    Well, I was able to play Napoleon after years due to recent patch fix, so I tryed some NTW3 as well. The only gripe I would have with it is the generally present half logic making sure cavalry doesnt actually utilize built in charge mechanics, while infantry units have 100 charge bonus all meant to do well in this regard. (it works both ways, if cavalry charge is considered purely "psychological", then bayonet charge is absolutely the same, closing in maintaining formation to intimidate first, not run into the enemy piercing two men in one run) But in the end in terms of gameplay, its rather cosmetic, as in context of the mod, cavalry works fine and can get in, cause casualties and retreat, or break the enemy and put disproportionately more routers off the field, then if they broke and fled from enemy musketry. If used to actually fight, proper positioning beforehand is crucial, the need to be maneuvered into good position to charge a little distance and if the do their work properly, then can then rest in place, while still killing routing enemies, only retreating, if threatened. (which is due to how the original system works) The key is, they cant swipe the field in one go due to quckly mounting fatique - this certainly could be heavily modified for light cavalry variants, but overall, it reinforces the feeling of how causalties would occur, not massacring whole army in a minute, but gradual wearing out, with units routing, if damaged and returning to fight later. (something like 20-30 percent casualties for individual units enduring heavy engagements is already notewortly to be mentioned and analyzed) Plus, as there is fog of war system implemented, having screen of cheap light cavalry scouts actually has a meaning, even if they never see actual combat.

    As for historicity - going through scores of examples, youd find out light cavalry was just as, of not more succesful in breaking enemy formations, if obliged to do so, because the armour, or how big horses are isnt really the deciding factor here - good, ferocious horsemen, well organized and with a pinch of luck on their side generally seems to do much better, then lets say not so well led and motivated cuirassiers. (but once again, going through countless examples of cavalry actions speaks more then my summary)

    Cannon number seems to be proportionate to the ratio of artillery to other elements of the battlefield and in both ETW and NTW and all its mods, they simply dont work by just pointing at individual units to shell. If you look closely, they target units flank and not really utilize their full destructive potential. Combination of manual control and good positioning is necessary, so that they dont hit the slightest hill constantly missing, plus creating killing zones. In the mod, it roughly works for me to point them in general direction to fire and shells land anywhere from min to max distance in a certain cone, but if aimed properly and if the hit, they potentially tear whole swathes of enemies in their paths. Even up close, manual aiming of both canister and solid shot is the better option, aiming well beyond the enemy destined to be hit, plus solid shot is basically the best option at musket range, as canister only really devastated infantry quickly, of the are so close the are actually charging the guns at bayonet point. (even then manual aiming works better)

    Units are slow, combat is slow, there is a fog of war masking maneuvers, scouting and unit positioning is important, so while in some ways it cant be called realistic, the mod does quite a good job of interpreting reality in light of what it has to work with, when considering the inherited game engine. Also, every mod has its own philosophy of how it interprets combat "realism", so perhaps someone else did it differently and in a more enjoyable way.
    Last edited by Lord Davn; July 23, 2023 at 11:49 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Historical Accuracy

    Just a quick question. Can a unit's movement be tied to the shape of its formation somehow? Like the actual speed = ratio of front and side * terrain variable * a default movement speed. The ratio is computed by dividing the length of side by the length of front. Say an infantry battalion in column formation of 10x soldiers front and 20x on the side then the ratio would be 2. For a line formation of 60x front and 3x side then it would be 1/20. This way, units (especially infantry wouldn't have to all move in slow motion all the time). Yes you choose to move in line formation, yes you have to be content with slow motion. But moving columns would be more swift.
    Last edited by Lord Davn; July 23, 2023 at 11:49 AM.

  15. #15
    Lord Davn's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Historical Accuracy

    Quote Originally Posted by volleyfire View Post
    Can a unit's movement be tied to the shape of its formation somehow? But moving columns would be more swift.
    Yes column movement is generally quicker especially along the narrow roads on the battle maps. I usually try to move my foot artillery along roads for faster movement and keep the line units nearby to cover them

  16. #16

    Default Re: Historical Accuracy

    Quote Originally Posted by DochtorGajo View Post
    Units are slow, combat is slow, there is a fog of war masking maneuvers, scouting and unit positioning is important, so while in some ways it cant be called realistic, the mod does quite a good job of interpreting reality in light of what it has to work with, when considering the inherited game engine. Also, every mod has its own philosophy of how it interprets combat "realism", so perhaps someone else did it differently and in a more enjoyable way.
    A very large percentage of NTW3 players misunderstand something very fundamental to this mod, and that is the scale. Unlike Vanilla and pretty much every other mod, which all represent the tactical scale of a battlefield, NTW3 has an abstraction of space and time such that it actually represents the operational scale. A house is not a house, a man is not one man, a metre is not one metre, but everything is scaled up (including time), akin to a board game. Why? Because there is one very important element that cannot be modded directly, and that is the way orders are transmitted and followed. If we look at the French army of 1805 or 1806, it was the best army in Europe, with an excellent officer cadre and staff system, meaning it was highly mobile and reactive. Their opponents, the Prussians or Austrians, were the opposite. So Napoleon was able to perform impressive maneuvering (such as Ulm 105, surrounding Mack and taking out his army before the battle of Austerlitz) which is something that cannot be modelled on a purely tactical (battlefield) scale. In fact you cannot do strategy at all, only tactics (hence the name), once you're on the battlefield it's too late to do a surprise attack or maneuver behind the enemy lines, or use the strategy of the central position. Once you're on the battlefield the enemies are in view of each other more or less and just go at it. So this is why NTW3 abstracts the map scale, because it aims to actually enable players to do strategy as well as tactics, a sort of compromise scale that accommodates both.

    This scale is the reason for essentially all of the core mechanics of NTW3: it's why you have faster and slower infantry classes (Prussian men *actually* didn't walk more slowly then Frenchmen, it's representing the maneuverability of the French army as given by their superior staff and officers), it's the reason why only some units are able to form square (time is compressed so we must lose some detail), it's why armies are invisible and need to be scouted by *light cavalry* who have the largest visibility and fastest speed (all cav is the same, what?? replying to the very first post here) - this invisibility is misinterpreted as unrealistic when armies appear to be relatively close - the scale is why you have to use roads to march to the battle (you don't need to bother to march on roads when you're in front of the enemy)...

    All of this applies to multiplayer, which is really where the mod shines. SP is based on fairly dated settings and the AI can't really understand these core mechanics (and the stamina and morale management required) so it usually just charges blindly into seemingly nothing (not scouting) and arrives with exhausted useless units
    Last edited by Black Serpent; September 01, 2023 at 05:28 PM.

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