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Thread: Not realistic at all because

  1. #1

    Default Not realistic at all because

    So let's talk realism.

    First Artillery. Napoleon himself said this was the most important arm of any army and was by far the biggest killer on the battlefield. In this game you can fire forever and never cause any real damage unless it's close range cannister fire which is deadly. However, howitzers don't have cannister which is absurd because they used it all the time during the era. I've seen my lines get hit by shots and all the knocked over 'little figures' simply get back up. I fired my howitzers for 30 minutes into the center of a fort packed with cavalry, guns and men (foolish AI move) and after watching the shells burst all over the concentrations, above and in - I tallied 12 casualties. Absolutely absurd.
    Artillery fire doesn't seem affected by woods, buildings yes, but not woods. Often artillery deploys in woods and fire without hinder. Absurd. You need a clear line of sight to be effective.

    Cavalry. Totally wrong. Biggest error: All the cavalry in the game is hard wired to melee.
    Let's talk just French (all the forces had similar units):

    Cuirassiers were the heavy cavalry fitted with heavy armor and big horses. They carried pistols, sabers and carbines. They were slow and always fought and maneuvered in Column usually by squadrons. They would destroy light cavalry if they could catch them and often deployed to reaction charge or form grand charges with other squadrons. They were most often held in reserve for the final blow because if they charged too soon or without support, they would find themselves exhausted and in the middle of the enemy when they were easily dispatched. Most heavy cavalry was this type and most often used in charges and melee.

    Carabiniers were Heavy cavalry with really large horses and men but not a lot of armor. They carried sabers, pistols, muskets until 1812 then carbines. Not very many (only two French regiments in total) because of cost and requirements to be seasoned and reliable soldiers. They served like Cuirassiers but were mauled by their armored counterparts.

    Dragoons were medium cavalry in a sense and served as mounted but primarily designed as fast moving infantry to reach a point, dismount and hold until the real infantry arrived. In fact, the French had a hard time keeping the dragoons mounted as they were not really horsemen (clumsy fools as the Brits put it) and horses were sometimes in short supply. They carried sabers but didn't really know how to use them very well. Their main weapon was the long dragoon musket for fighting as infantry and later some were equipped with carbines (light dragoons). Used almost exclusively as mounted infantry - almost never as cavalry. Maneuvered in column. They charged in the early years but were not really good at it. Napoleon actually converted and retrained about a third of his dragoons to lancers to counter the Russian cossacks because they just weren't that good as regular cavalry.

    Lancers were light cavalry armed with sabers, pistols and lances. The later being an excellent weapon for dispatching other cavalry and infantry. Maneuvered in column but always charged in a line formation often spreading out as the charge proceeded. Powerful charge but easily countered when they came to a standstill. Get in and get out. All melee type light and fast cavalry.

    Chasseurs were the largest part of the light cavalry forces. They carried sabers, pistols and carbines and could and did dismount at times for fire combat. They were primarily a melee force used for counter charging, flank protection and specifically for pursuit cutting down a fleeing enemy. Often charged in line for envelopment and effect.

    Hussars were light cavalry equipped with sabers, pistols and carbines but they were primarily a skirmish force designed to fire from horseback with their carbines to harass, slow and generally annoy the deployment of enemy forces. They also provided rear guard actions. They are primarily a fire unit though they did harass with their sabers as well. They deployed in skirmish formation and almost always avoided melee except at the end of a battle to chase down routing forces.

    But in this game cavalry is not differentiated AT ALL. Despite being armed and designed as harassing skirmishers or as fire troops, ALL cavalry is hard wired to melee; ALL cavalry forms in one formation; dragoons are very rare; ALL cavalry seems to tire at the same rate; cavalry doesn't seem to be hampered by woods or towns except some slowing. This is so unrealistic. Cavalry wouldn't be caught dead in woods (or they soon would be) unless it was in general order and skirmishing. Hussars do well in woods and towns in general order but heavy cavalry would be useless. That none of the cavalry units can fire weapons is absurd. That charging through woods/towns would succeed is absurd. The cavalry units in this game are not designed historically or realistically. They have the names but not the function. They are simply differentiated by morale and melee value. And the formation is critical and not represented at all. They all maneuvered in column but fought in column, skirmish or line depending on their role.

    Infantry is not differentiated any better than cavalry. They maneuvered in column and deployed in line for fire combat. They rarely moved much in line formation because uneven ground, obstacles, etc. would cause the unit to be constantly stopping to dress the ranks. So they moved in columns they would wheel into a line formation quickly or a square for that matter. And by the way, a square can move too. Not easily but it can move. Infantry also fought in general order in woods and towns not in line or column like this game. And where are the skirmishers? ALL Legere infantry has skirmish companies they could deploy that's why they were Legere and not line infantry. Where are the grenades by grenadiers? Where is the fast moving light infantry? Some are named like that but seem to move the same speed as any other infantry. Light infantry's biggest threat was cavalry which is why they excelled at general order/skirmishing in woods/towns where cavalry (shouldn't) be able to charge them. There is no column or line formation in this game just a blob you can spread out or thicken up but not representative of the real difference in the formations. Line was the fire formation but often infantry would form in column or mixed formation for maximum melee effect. And the type of formation really effects their fire defense especially in column where cavalry and infantry in column could be decimated by cannon balls. Maybe that's why artillery is useless because everybody essentially maneuvers in line. And always running? What is up with that?

    It's a fun game but it's not historical and does not in any way depict the actual differences in types or functionalities of the units or how they were actually used in Napoleonic combat. This game is all driven by numbers. I love it but don't say it's realistic.

  2. #2
    Lord Davn's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Not realistic at all because

    Quote Originally Posted by gdpsnake View Post
    So let's talk realism. It's a fun game but it's not historical and does not in any way depict the actual differences in types or functionalities of the units or how they were actually used in Napoleonic combat. This game is all driven by numbers. I love it but don't say it's realistic.
    We have to work with CA gave us in the original ntw game. The battles were designed to be short and quick dominated by melee combat. We've tried to add historical accuracy to the original game. The units in the NTW3 Classic Battles and Campaign game depict actual units with adjusted stats to make the battles more realistic.
    In the end it's still a game, if it doesn't fit your bill then try something else
    Last edited by Lord Davn; June 01, 2020 at 09:31 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Not realistic at all because

    I'm not sure where you got the bit about dragoons from. They'd stopped being mounted infantry in the early 1700s, at the very latest. There's mentions of "British" Dragoons hardly ever dismounting and keeping only their swords and pistols in the Nine Years War, which took place at the end of 17th century. With dragoons performing cavalry actions in the English Civil War.

    Dragoons wanted to be cavalry. And being Mounted Infantry was not a desirable role.

    And I'm not a dev, but I think I know why none of the cavalry uses pistols. The AI can't use them properly, because the AI doesn't get gun cavalry and pistols don't work well. At best, cavalry armed with pistols can shoot with them while charging, but due to the way NTW works, it doesn't work well.

    If I was making the mod, I'd have some mounted shooters, like Chasseurs au Cheval for more variety in cavalry, but I think I get why they aren't in the game. Because their role isn't entirely clear beyond being light cavalry that can also shoot, like hussars but better.

  4. #4
    gary's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Not realistic at all because

    The Modders and creators of the game are restricted by the core-game mechanics (which is simple) and therefore are limited to what they can add custom or otherwise. It's an old game and while I agree with most of what the post says, Hussars were just as good at melee and could counter another light cavalry, dragoons were malee cav too. All in all, the game will only let the modders do and create whilst keeping within the game engine. Its the game... not the modders that are at fault. It came out when there was a move away from in-depth RTS to a more simplified, basic arcade experience, the latter drove many devoted fans away from the franchise.
    Last edited by gary; November 01, 2020 at 11:40 AM.
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  5. #5
    Lord Davn's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Not realistic at all because

    The Dragoon cavalry needs to have two stats for the unit, one as cavalry when mounted and the other as infantry when dismounted. Having two sets of stats for them presented a problem and it was decided to just make them mounted cavalry to simplify the game stats and play-ability.
    Last edited by Lord Davn; January 25, 2021 at 09:09 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Not realistic at all because

    Quote Originally Posted by gdpsnake View Post
    So let's talk realism.
    a load of crap

  7. #7
    Lord Davn's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Not realistic at all because

    The Napoleon Total War game is a ten years old and has been modded extensively by a number dedicated groups. We work with we have to make it better and in the case of the NTW3 mod, more historically accurate. In the end it is what it is

  8. #8

    Default Re: Not realistic at all because

    wiki made a lot of people experts.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Not realistic at all because

    a load of crap indeed

  10. #10
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Not realistic at all because

    French Dragoons did fight on foot sometimes. Like in Wertingen, 8 october 1805, where they capture the town in close quarter fighting, house after house. This was after this that Napoleon decided to add a dragoon regiment to the Guard.

    And indeed, having only one set of stats is a big issue with dismountable units.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Not realistic at all because

    In terms of unit behaviors (really AI competency) - NTW 3 is working with what CA crafted. So if you have a problem with how the AI handles itself, blame CA, not the modder.

    In terms of some of your points on realism (terrain impacts on unit movement & fighting, unit characteristics) - I highly recommend you play some vanilla and then compare/contrast to NTW 3. NTW 3 far and away offers a more refined gameplay experience: line-of-sight mechanics; terrain seriously impacts how your units move & fight; cavalry charges into prepared infantry (square or no square) will almost always fail; musketry inaccurate at distance but deadly at close range; ect.

    This mod has realism in spades compared to the original version.

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