Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

[swabian]

Straight up says chokeholds, for the part you quote below.
Better sources, hmmm.... Not much better a source than going directly to the MPD manual. Which is what I did. What you "feel" is of no relevance.

Chokeholds and neck restraints are (or were) specifically defined in the MPD manual. So yes, wholly different things.


Seems wanderwegger missed the next two paragraphs:
"An officer could also use two types of neck restraints in less severe circumstances. One is called a conscious neck restraint, in which an officer applies light to moderate pressure to the side of a person’s neck but does not intend to knock a person unconscious. That could be used against people who are “actively resisting,” according to the policy guidebook posted online.

The other neck restraint is one meant to render someone unconscious, and could be used when someone is “exhibiting active aggression” and for “life saving purposes.” Department policy said neck restraints can’t be used against people who are “passively resisting.”"

We all saw the video and how that poor man had to die in such an indignity. It is a very good signal all the involved policemen were fired from their jobs.

And Chauvin is of course a common criminal and should be processed as such.

[Aexodus]

Swabian was there a chokehold in the video.

[swabian]

Ehh... pardon?

edit: I don't believe there is a difference in which way you strangle a person, as long as said person is being strangled: it's bloody strangulation.

[Cope]

Ehh... pardon?

edit: I don't believe there is a difference in which way you strangle a person, as long as said person is being strangled: it's bloody strangulation.

The official autopsy report found no physical evidence of strangulation trauma. Please try paying attention to the evidence.

There is currently little evidence (other than the secondary autopsy) that Chauvin's hold either choked or asphyxiated Floyd. The initial post mortem did not find any notable injuries to the head or neck area, indicating that the force Chauvin exerted was not excessive. For this reason, it is unlikely that the neck restraint was uniquely responsible for the triggering of Floyd's cardiopulmonary incident.

[swabian]

The report was updated. This is incredible...

At the very least, you have to concede that there are different and contradicting sources.

[Cope]

The report was updated. This is incredible...

at the very least you have to concede that there are different and contradicting sources.

The Hennepin County report was not "updated". A second, less reliable, private autopsy was carried out on behalf of the Floyd family. Alwyn already provided a source detailing it's lack of credibility:

Baden is a retained expert and is being paid for his services by Floyd's family. He is not independent. The Hennepin County Medical Examiner, which is paid by taxpayer money, is the only independent agency here. They did the first, legally-mandated autopsy, and collected the evidence. The medical examiner's office is not an arm of law enforcement. If a retained expert finds something at autopsy that is not favorable to the client's legal case, the client doesn't have to disclose that expert at all. Everything the medical examiner does and all the evidence they collect is a public record. None of their findings, no matter what they reveal, can be suppressed.

Furthermore, a "second autopsy" is always fraught with problems. The process of performing the first autopsy causes "autopsy artifact" -- severed blood vessels, dissected organs, and even broken bones -- that the second autopsy pathologist may not be able to distinguish from inflicted injury. When I perform a forensic autopsy on someone we suspect might have died of asphyxia, I will frequently keep the entire neck block (the windpipe, blood vessels, and surrounding organs and structures of the throat) in a stock jar in the morgue, as evidence. I may even save large sections of the heart and brain for specialized testing. These materials would not be available to a private-practice pathologist hired to perform a second autopsy.


If Baden looked at Floyd's corpse after a thorough forensic autopsy, there would have been little left for him to examine. Keep in mind that he also does not have access to all the evidence in the case, such as the medical records, witness statements, body camera videos, or police reports.

Following a press conference on June 1 about the second autopsy, Baden admitted that portions of Floyd's organs were indeed missing, and that he didn't have access to the results from toxicology testing. Soon after, the Hennepin County Medical Examiner issued a press release, and subsequent to that, the full autopsy report, which indicated that the cause of death was "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression," and that the manner of death was homicide. They listed arteriosclerotic and hypertensive heart disease, fentanyl intoxication, and recent methamphetamine use as other significant conditions contributing to death."

[swabian]

Look, what are we even debating here, gentlemen. Even if Mr. Floyd was not killed by the actions of police force (nah, i still don't believe it), there is no doubt that how he was treated was absolutely awful. If you ask me, it was aggravated assault with the consequence of death and therefore manslaughter. I have seen the video. There is no way this is was a defensible event from the view of the police department.

And: Imagine if you had to watch your own father die like this, knowing that the entire idiocy of the world has watched it. This is really, really bad, gentlemen.

[Cope]

Look, what are we even debating here, gentlemen.

We are debating the cause(s) of George Floyd's death and whether the officers involved in his arrest should be held criminally liable.

Even if Mr. Floyd was not killed by the actions of police force (nah, i still don't believe it), there is no doubt that how he was treated was absolutely awful. If you ask me, it was aggravated assault with the consequence of death and therefore manslaughter. I have seen the video.

"Aggravated assault with the consequence of death" would be Murder in the Second Degree, not manslaughter. Although the police did not use weapons during Floyd's arrest, so the assault you allege would not have been aggravated. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the statutes:

609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

Subd. 2.Unintentional murders.

Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:

(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting.

609.222 ASSAULT IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

Subdivision 1. Dangerous weapon. Whoever assaults another with a dangerous weapon may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or to payment of a fine of not more than $14,000, or both.

Subd. 2. Dangerous weapon; substantial bodily harm.Whoever assaults another with a dangerous weapon and inflicts substantial bodily harm may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both.

There is no way this is was a defensible event from the view of the police department.

The police department is not being tried.

And: Imagine if you had to watch your own father die like this, knowing that the entire idiocy of the world has watched it. This is really, really bad, gentlemen.

Appeal to emotion.

[Aexodus]

Yes, but where is the strangulation you’re talking about. Holding someone down by their neck and strangulation are two different things. Furthermore, no autopsy done by anyone has found evidenced of traumatic strangulation.

[swabian]

Yes, but where is the strangulation you’re talking about. Holding someone down by their neck and strangulation are two different things. Furthermore, no autopsy done by anyone has found evidenced of traumatic strangulation.

Dr. Alecia Wilson has done the second obduction and concluded that the cause of death was suffocation by external force. This is the standard of information in German speaking news to my knowledge. Contrary to the wishful thinking of you gentlesirs, i am not a fool. I would not have made a fuzz about it under any other circumstances.

[swabian]

Appeal to emotion.

Valid appeal to emotion. But nevermind. I don't wish to discuss this further.

[Cope]

Dr. Alecia Wilson has done the second obduction and concluded that the cause of death was suffocation by external force. This is the standard of information in German speaking news to my knowledge. Contrary to the wishful thinking of you gentlesirs, i am not a fool. I would not have made a fuzz about it under any other circumstances.

I have already provided you material explaining why the secondary autopsy is probably unreliable.

Valid appeal to emotion. But nevermind. I don't wish to discuss this further.

We're debating the facts of the case, not how the optics of Floyd's death affect people emotionally. So far you haven't really addressed any of the substantive responses made against your position.

[swabian]

I have already provided you material explaining why the secondary autopsy is probably unreliable.



We're debating the facts of the case, not how the optics of Floyd's death affect people emotionally.

The "optics"?! Haha, cute. You will not be able to determine the further continuation of the discussion, regardless of me participating in it or not. I am not the "endboss" you obviously mean to defeat to get to the next TWC level.

So far you haven't really addressed any of the substantive responses made against your position.

Because i was disappointed and weirded out. And ultimately bored.

[Cope]

The "optics"?! Haha, cute. You will not be able to determine the further continuation of the discussion, regardless of me participating in it or not. I am not the "endboss" you obviously mean to defeat to get to the next TWC level.

Don't flatter yourself.

Because i was disappointed and weirded out. And ultimately bored.

I suspect the real answer is that you don't have any substantive rebuttals to make - as is plainly evidenced by your refusal to address the critique of the secondary autopsy. Next time I suggest you read thread before interjecting: it will save us all having to repeat the same points.

[swabian]

[/B]Don't flatter yourself.



I suspect the real answer is that you don't have any substantive rebuttals to make - as is plainly evidenced by your refusal to address the critique of the secondary autopsy. Next time I suggest you read thread before interjecting: it will save us all having to repeat the same points.

There is no need for a rebuttal. I am not a pathologist and neither are you. You mean to personally attack me over a "my sources are better than yours" discussion? Well, i sure respond angrily to so much arrogant mockery. Who wouldn't.

[Cope]

There is no need for a rebuttal. I am not a pathologist and neither are you.

The person who made the critique of the secondary autopsy is a pathologist. That's why I cited her comments.

You mean to personally attack me over a "my sources are better than yours" discussion? Well, i sure respond angrily to so much arrogant mockery. Who wouldn't.

You haven't presented any sources at all, let alone ones which rebuke the points being made against your position. It's not my fault that you feel personally violated or "mocked" by countervailing evidence.

[Vanoi]

Don't know why people are arguing about strangulation. Its obvious George wasn't strangled. Its also obvious no one here as any knowledge of Asphyxia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asphyxia

Positional" or "restraint" asphyxia is when a person is restrained and left alone prone, such as in a police vehicle, and is unable to reposition himself or herself in order to breathe. The death can be in the vehicle, or following loss of consciousness to be followed by death while in a coma, having presented with anoxic brain damage. The asphyxia can be caused by facial compression, neck compression, or chest compression. This occurs mostly during restraint and handcuffing situations by law enforcement, including psychiatric incidents. The weight of the restraint(s) doing the compression may contribute to what is attributed to positional asphyxia. Therefore, passive deaths following custody restraint that are presumed to be the result of positional asphyxia may actually be examples of asphyxia occurring during the restraint process.

Derek didn't need to strangle George Floyd. His own knee causing neck compression could cause positional or restraint asphyxia. The very first autopsy as pointed out declared Floyd died of asphyxiation.

Anyone in court can easily argue through the first autopsy that Derek caused Floyd to die through restraint asphyxiation.

[Cope]

Don't know why people are arguing about strangulation. Its obvious George wasn't strangled. Its also obvious no one here as any knowledge of Asphyxia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asphyxia

Strangulation is a process by which asphyxiation can occur. If it was proven that Chauvin's neck restraint had asphyxiated Floyd, it would not be inaccurate to claim that Floyd had been strangled. From the NCBI:

Strangulation is defined as the compression of blood or air-filled structures which impedes circulation or function. In this summary, strangulation will refer to compression of anatomical neck structures leading to asphyxia and neuronal death.

Derek didn't need to strangle George Floyd. His own knee causing neck compression could cause positional or restraint asphyxia. The very first autopsy as pointed out declared Floyd died of asphyxiation.

Anyone in court can easily argue through the first autopsy that Derek caused Floyd to die through restraint asphyxiation.

Show me the segment of the autopsy which "declares" that Floyd died of asphyxiation.

[Vanoi]

Strangulation is a process by which asphyxiation can occur. If it was proven that Chauvin's neck restraint had asphyxiated Floyd, it would not be inaccurate to claim that Floyd had been strangled.



Show me the segment of the autopsy which "declares" that Floyd died of asphyxiation.

I'll admit i think i confused the first and second autopsys as the first one in fact does not state asphyxia but funny enough:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-...ation-details/

But the report released later Monday by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's office said Floyd died of "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression

Neck compression and restraint compression. Two of the things identified in my article on Asphyxia that can cause positional or restraint aspyxia.

Here's a great article showing how both the county autopsy that was conducted and the second independent autopsy don't really differ from each other.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...-as-they-seem/

So who is right? Well, both of them, experts who weren’t affiliated with the case said. In fact, according to forensic pathologists and medical experts, the two autopsy reports aren’t actually all that different in their conclusions. “They are just different ways of describing the same thing,” said Dr. Joye Carter, forensic pathologist to the sheriff of San Luis Obispo County, California. What’s more, experts told me, the autopsies of George Floyd help show the complexity of medical examinations, how those examinations work and what they can and cannot tell us.


Some of the public confusion over Floyd’s autopsy reports can be blamed on misinterpretation by the media and the public, said Dr. Judy Melinek, a San Francisco-based forensic pathologist . “Anybody suggesting asphyxia was ruled out by the medical examiner is wrong,” she said. Indeed, lots of people suggested just that, with media describing the reports as “drastically different” and nearly describing the county report as absolving the white police officer who pressed his knee into Floyd’s back for 8 minutes.


The Hennepin County autopsy may have mentioned factors beyond police conduct, but it was really just saying Floyd’s heart stopped while police were restraining him and pressing on his neck,said Melinek, Carter and Dr. Michael Freeman, professor of forensic medicine and epidemiology at Maastricht University in the Netherlands. It’s not a claim that he died of a heart attack, drugs, or pre-existing conditions, they told me. “The cause of death is police restraint,” Melinek said, just like in the autopsy Floyd’s family commissioned.

That is both a misunderstanding of the report and an example of the difficulty in identifying cause of death, experts said. It’s a misunderstanding because an earlier legal document, put out to explain the charges against the officer who kneeled on Floyd, said the county had found no injuries consistent with asphyxia caused by physical trauma. But the actual autopsy report doesn’t mention the word “asphyxia” at all. It does, however, describe “neck compression” as a direct cause of Floyd’s death — meaning the blood flow (and, thus, oxygen) to Floyd’s brain and heart were cut off. It doesn’t take physical trauma to asphyxiate someone.

You can make someone lose consciousness just by compressing the arteries and veins in their neck, cutting off blood flow to and from the brain, he told me. Williams said he has watched experts demonstrate this effect at conferences. People will lose consciousness after 7-to-10 seconds, he said. “It’s very reproducible. We vary on where the point of no return would be, but if you block those veins for three to four minutes, you’re dead.”

[Cope]

I'll admit i think i confused the first and second autopsys as the first one in fact does not state asphyxia but funny enough:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-...ation-details/


Neck compression and restraint compression. Two of the things identified in my article on Asphyxia that can cause positional or restraint aspyxia.

Here's a great article showing how both the county autopsy that was conducted and the second independent autopsy don't really differ from each other.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...-as-they-seem/

We know that the Hennepin autopsy case title reads"cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression". The wording is unnecessarily obtuse, but as Melinek claimed (she has already been regularly cited throughout this thread), that line is "really just saying Floyd’s heart stopped while police were restraining him and pressing on his neck". This does not necessarily mean that Floyd was asphyxiated (particularly not to the extent that Floyd's circulation was completely "cut off") nor does it mean that asphyxiation can be ruled out. In order for the accusation to stick in court, however, the prosecution will have to prove it.

Secondly, the article's claim that "it doesn't take physical trauma to asphyxiate someone", whilst being technically correct, is somewhat misleading. Had Floyd been asphyxiated in the manner alleged (ie. by forceful compression) we would expect there to be evidence of physical trauma. The lack of such evidence is suggestive that Chavin's hold was not unjustifiably forceful.