Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

[Aexodus]

I was referring to police intervention at Taylor's house, which sound more like the actions of a hostile occupying army than law enforcement amongst one's own citizens.

Why?

That no-knock warrant .... It seems to me US police have a lot of leeway in precipitating situations where they end up shooting civilians in 'self defense'.

With regards to Breonna Taylor, they were fired upon because they didn’t identify themselves. What they need to do is not indict the police officers. They need to remove the ability of judges to grant warrants to enter a property without announcing themselves, and that of police officers to carry them out. The police officers aren’t at fault here. Politicians who legislated this situation into existence are.

[Vanoi]

Why?



With regards to Breonna Taylor, they were fired upon because they didn’t identify themselves. What they need to do is not indict the police officers. They need to remove the ability of judges to grant warrants to enter a property without announcing themselves, and that of police officers to carry them out. The police officers aren’t at fault here. Politicians who legislated this situation into existence are.

There's a current investigation by the FBI regarding the case. The search warrant that was applied for Breonna Taylor's house may have been falsified. If thats found to be true the officers definitely deserve to be charged.

[Cope]

With regards to Breonna Taylor, they were fired upon because they didn’t identify themselves.

That's not what the attorney general claims:

The Louisville police officers involved in Breonna Taylor’s shooting death “knocked and announced” themselves — and did not execute a “no-knock warrant” as previously believed, Kentucky’s attorney general said Wednesday.

At a press conference, AG Daniel Cameron said a neighbor corroborated cops’ claims that they knocked on Taylor’s apartment door and announced themselves as police in the early hours of March 13.

“Evidence showed officers knocked and announced their presence at the apartment,” Cameron said, following the announcement from a grand jury to indict one of the officers, Brett Hankison, on three counts of wanton endangerment in the first degree for firing his weapon into another apartment.

Cameron also defended two other officers involved — Detective Myles Cosgrove and Sgt. Jonathan Mattingly — saying they were first shot at by Taylor’s boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, before returning fire.

Kentucky AG denies cops executed ‘no-knock warrant’ in Breonna Taylor case, New York Post, Sept 23rd.

[Muizer]

As much as I think that judicial culling of police, government and alphabet agencies in America is long overdue, I find it quite amusing how its brought up by people who live in nations where you can get arrested for social media posts.

I don't see how that is relevant. In any case, you live in one of those countries too. I think all of us do. So what's the deal: shut down the Mudpit until that changes?

[Heathen Hammer]

I don't see how that is relevant. In any case, you live in one of those countries too. I think all of us do. So what's the deal: shut down the Mudpit until that changes?

If I did support Trudeau, I'd be a hypocrite indeed. My understanding was that you support EU governments that do that kind of thing, purely judging by your posts.
The point here that the problem is not with police, but with dumb judges that hand out warrants that violate rights and privacy of citizens.

[Muizer]

What they need to do is not indict the police officers. They need to remove the ability of judges to grant warrants to enter a property without announcing themselves, and that of police officers to carry them out. The police officers aren’t at fault here. Politicians who legislated this situation into existence are.

With regards to that no-knock warrant, I'd say yes. The wider issue remains though. You cannot expect police to go out there and do their job without the legal right to self defense. That means the potential for escalation is always there. It's quite the same potential as that of police officers in my country (and yours I suspect). There appears to be a vastly different approach to managing (or not managing) that escalation though. That has got to be a matter of police attitudes and training.

[Vanoi]

That's not what the attorney general claims:

He can claim that but multiple witnesses interviewed at the scene and Breonna's boyfriend claim they never announced themselves. The fact they dropped the charges against Breonna's boyfriend indicates they were at fault.

[B. W.]

They managed to get a warrant to search the house for someone who was already in custody. How that happened needs to be investigated.

[Vanoi]

They managed to get a warrant to search the house for someone who was already in custody. How that happened needs to be investigated.

That and why did the police request a no-knock warrant fir Taylor's house? She had no criminal record and wasn't known to be armed.

[Cope]

He can claim that but multiple witnesses interviewed at the scene and Breonna's boyfriend claim they never announced themselves.

In order to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt (especially given the countervailing testimony) the state would need stronger evidence, such as audio of the incident or a confession from one of the officers.

The fact they dropped the charges against Breonna's boyfriend indicates they were at fault.

The commonwealth's attorney only shelved the case after Taylor's death became a national scandal; it is likely that his decision to abandon the indictment against Walker was an act of appeasement rather than a tacit admission of guilt on the part of the police. Even so, most of the evidence points to the fact that Walker was unaware that it was a police raid. I doubt he would have been convicted.

[Vanoi]

In order to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt (especially given the countervailing testimony) the state would need stronger evidence, such as audio of the incident or a confession from one of the officers.

The fact they applied for a warrant that doesn't require that you identify yourself as police is all the evidence i really need. The lawsuit the city settled for and the dropped charges against the boyfriend also support that.

The commonwealth's attorney only shelved the case after Taylor's death became a national scandal; it is likely that abandoning the indictment against Walker was an act of appeasement, rather than a tacit admission of the police's guilt. Even so, most of the evidence points to the fact that Walker was unaware that it was a police raid. I doubt he would have been convicted.

They couldn't convict him at all. He's protected under Kentucky's stand your ground law. This law can't be applied against the police but in this case Walker was unaware they were police and the police likely didn't announce themselves. He could easily win a case on that.
They simply had no case to convict him.

[Cope]

The fact they applied for a warrant that doesn't require that you identify yourself as police is all the evidence i really need. The lawsuit the city settled for and the dropped charges against the boyfriend also support that.

I'm referring to the officers' criminal culpability (since the conclusion of the grand jury is what reignited interest in this case). Local authorities will typically be liable civilly if one of their officers wounds or kills an innocent bystander irrespective of whether any criminal negligence is involved.

On the point about the warrant, the officers cannot be held accountable for executing a legal writ (or a writ they reasonably believed to be legal) unless they had fabricated evidence in order to attain it. In that sense, whether they announced themselves or not is irrelevant. Nevertheless, why the jurisdiction allowed officers without specialist training, equipment and planning to carry out a no-knock warrant is beyond me.

They couldn't convict him at all. He's protected under Kentucky's stand your ground law. This law can't be applied against the police but in this case Walker was unaware they were police and the police likely didn't announce themselves. He could easily win a case on that.
They simply had no case to convict him.

Then we agree that most of the evidence points to Walker being unaware that the domicile was being raided by the police when he discharged his weapon.

[Vanoi]

I'm referring to the officers' criminal culpability (since the conclusion of the grand jury is what reignited interest in this case). Local authorities will typically be liable civilly if one of their officers wounds or kills an innocent bystander irrespective of whether any criminal negligence is involved.

On the point about the warrant, the officers cannot be held accountable for executing a legal writ (or a writ they reasonably believed to be legal) unless they had fabricated evidence in order to attain it. In that sense, whether they announced themselves or not is irrelevant. Nevertheless, why the jurisdiction allowed officers without specialist training, equipment and planning to carry out a no-knock warrant is beyond me.

Yes executing a legal writ isn't a criminal offense and i also agree with the lack of training and plain out poor execution of the warrant.

However you mentioned the warrant. There is a possibility the warrant wasn't legal. The current FBI investigation is looking at how they obtained the warrant and whenever the information provided to get the warrant was correct.

Then we agree that most of the evidence points to Walker being unaware that the domicile was being raided by the police when he discharged his weapon.

Yes i agree.

[Sir Adrian]

An undergoing investigation does not imply guilt or a suspicion of guilt. This is not the Soviet Union.

There will always be some form of investigation in any police action that ends in a fatality.

[Infidel144]

Peaceful Protesters offer cocktails of Peace and soup to Trump's Thugs. Trump's Thugs brutally reject these goodwill overtures and rendition at least 13 Peaceful Protesters.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"Protestor throws Molotov at police"
https://twitter.com/i/status/1309002555838664705
"Watch: A rioter at the BLM-antifa Portland riot throws a large Molotov cocktail at @PortlandPolice"
https://twitter.com/i/status/1309020430938836993
"Breaking: Joseph Robert Sipe, 23, was arrested at the Portland #antifa riot where firebombs were used. He's charged w/1st-degree attempted murder, 1st-degree arson & other felonies. There is a federal hold on him, so he can't be quickly released."
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status...21813314777091
"Update: 13 Arrested During Riot
There were 13 people arrested during the riot that took place Wednesday night and Thursday morning. The following are those booked in the Multnomah County Detention Center:"
...
"Group members continued to block traffic in the streets and throw full soup cans towards officers. Green lasers, which cause permanent damage to vision, were shined at officers situated in the sound truck. Officers began to disperse the crowd outside of Central Precinct again and a Molotov cocktail was thrown towards officers striking one in the foot."
...
"A second Molotov cocktail was thrown towards officers near Southwest 3rd Avenue and Southwest Main Street, and a third Molotov cocktail was thrown at officers near Southwest Broadway and Southwest Main Street. As the crowd was dispersed they aggressively threw rocks at officers and other projectiles."

Sources:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1309002555838664705
https://twitter.com/i/status/1309020430938836993
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status...21813314777091
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/polic...id=261222&ec=1


.

[Vanoi]

An undergoing investigation does not imply guilt or a suspicion of guilt. This is not the Soviet Union.


There will always be some form of investigation in any police action that ends in a fatality.

The investigation of Taylor's death is normal. Investigating how the search warrant was obtained is not.

https://www.wdrb.com/in-depth/louisv...341bd2866.html

A U.S. postal inspector in Louisville said Metro police did not use his office to verify that a drug suspect was receiving packages at Breonna Taylor's apartment, one of the factors listed in officers' request for a "no-knock" warrant for her home.

That right there could cause all of the officers to be charged.

[Sir Adrian]

Why would it not be normal? It is the duty of an investigator to pursue all possible heads of accusation. If it's not, it should be standard procedure to pursue warrants and permits in a fatality investigation.

[Frostwulf]

See? This is the problem. You're relieving any responsibility from Rittenhouse while trying to find fault with the people that were shot down.

I said he shouldn’t have been there (for me it’s his age) and he had a gun (again because of his age).

Rittenhouse created a situation illegally

The situation was created because he put out an illegal dumpster fire. He also cleaned off graffiti and offered medical help. Shall we compare that to those that were shot? You know participating in a “protest” and at least for Rosenbaum(the child molester) trying to start fights with others prior to chasing down Rittenhouse. You really want to compare those situations? Rittenhouse had a gun and he shouldn’t have, but that wasn’t what caused all of this. He put out a fire and Rosenberg who again had already try to start fights went after him.

and discriminatory treatment by cops made it possible. Normally, the cops that he waved and passed by should have confiscated his weapon as it was illegal for him to carry.

So none of the protesters had guns that the police saw? Did the police know how old Rittenhouse was, and if you say they did what is your proof. They may have known him but that doesn’t mean they knew he was 17 instead of 18+.

Even after he shot 3 people with others yelling at the cops to arrest him for shooting someone the cops didn't do anything.

If you watch the video Rittenhouse had his hands up and tried to surrender. According to the police they didn’t realize he was doing so and told him to move off the road. If you watch the video of that section, do you really believe the police could hear anything anyone(Rittenhouse, crowd, etc.) was saying in that noisy chaos?The police said they couldn’t hear him or anyone, and after watching the video I believe them.

Were the protesters that chased Rittenhouse rioters?

Considering Rosenbaum was trying to start fights, I would say at least he was. The others were among those doing other riotous behavior so its not far fetched to believe they were.

I haven't seen any evidence to that. Have you? If not, why portray them as looters?

Watch the video’s and see what Rosenbaum does.

Every one of them simply tried to take the gun away from Rittenhouse. They were of the opinion that Rittenhouse could harm people with that rifle.

So your saying that the “protesters” said something like: “hey that guy has a gun, we better take it away from him so he doesn’t hurt someone”. Sorry I don’t buy that in the least. When they say "get him" and "beat him up"......

Saying that Rittenhouse shot them in self defense with a gun he shouldn't have in a place he shouldn't have been doesn't sound right.

Why shouldn’t he have been there? He had every right to be there just like the others. I didn’t like him being there, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have the right.


What it comes down to is this. Rittenhouse was there to help people from vandalism/damage to property/riotous behavior/ medical assistance/ etc. The others were there at best to protest, but Rosenbaum had other motives as shown on video. Kyle put out a dumpster fire (which was illegal) which angered the “protesters”.
https://www.kenoshanews.com/news/loc...2d5506efb.html

“This idea of people burning brush, debris and papers and pouring gasoline on it is still going to remain illegal,” said Prozanski, who co-sponsored the ordinance with Ald. Rocco LaMacchia. “What we’re looking for is recreational burning. Looking for people to have a safe environment in which to enjoy family time and teach their children about safe fires.”

The mob, not just Rosenbaum chased Kyle and it can be seen people throwing things at him. Someone behind Kyle shoots and Kyle turns around as Rosenbaum charges him.
Real simple if Rosenbaum hadn’t been chasing Kyle and then charging him, Rosenbaum would be alive today, a choice he made to chase then engage from someone fleeing from him and others.
https://summit.news/2020/08/27/video...t-shoot-first/

One wonders if the media will acknowledge that there were at least two gunmen involved in the confrontation and that the one pursuing Rittenhouse fired his weapon first.

Kyle then makes a phone call and then this is said:
https://nypost.com/2020/08/28/allege...mid-new-video/

One person can be heard saying “beat him up,” as another is heard shouting, “Hey, he shot him!,” video footage shows, the complaint says. “Get him! Get that dude!” a person can be heard saying.

So once again Kyle is running and is pursued by a mob of people. You know the ones that said “ “Get him! Get that dude!” and “ “beat him up,”. Kyle trips and the mob attacks him again. Kyle kept running and was pursued by those wishing to harm him, at least by their actions (jumping kick when Kyle on ground, skate board to the head, etc.). One more person would have been alive if they would have let him get away and not attack him. It's just silly to say that they were "simply tried to take the gun away from Rittenhouse." when they talked of harming him and already attacked him physically.
Here is my question to you, what was Kyle supposed to do in any of this situation? If your going to say he shouldn’t have been there, then my reply is neither should the rioters and those wising to do harm!

[PointOfViewGun]

I said he shouldn’t have been there (for me it’s his age) and he had a gun (again because of his age).
The situation was created because he put out an illegal dumpster fire. He also cleaned off graffiti and offered medical help. Shall we compare that to those that were shot? You know participating in a “protest” and at least for Rosenbaum(the child molester) trying to start fights with others prior to chasing down Rittenhouse. You really want to compare those situations? Rittenhouse had a gun and he shouldn’t have, but that wasn’t what caused all of this. He put out a fire and Rosenberg who again had already try to start fights went after him.
So none of the protesters had guns that the police saw? Did the police know how old Rittenhouse was, and if you say they did what is your proof. They may have known him but that doesn’t mean they knew he was 17 instead of 18+.
If you watch the video Rittenhouse had his hands up and tried to surrender. According to the police they didn’t realize he was doing so and told him to move off the road. If you watch the video of that section, do you really believe the police could hear anything anyone(Rittenhouse, crowd, etc.) was saying in that noisy chaos?The police said they couldn’t hear him or anyone, and after watching the video I believe them.
Considering Rosenbaum was trying to start fights, I would say at least he was. The others were among those doing other riotous behavior so its not far fetched to believe they were.
Watch the video’s and see what Rosenbaum does.
So your saying that the “protesters” said something like: “hey that guy has a gun, we better take it away from him so he doesn’t hurt someone”. Sorry I don’t buy that in the least. When they say "get him" and "beat him up"......
Why shouldn’t he have been there? He had every right to be there just like the others. I didn’t like him being there, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have the right.
What it comes down to is this. Rittenhouse was there to help people from vandalism/damage to property/riotous behavior/ medical assistance/ etc. The others were there at best to protest, but Rosenbaum had other motives as shown on video. Kyle put out a dumpster fire (which was illegal) which angered the “protesters”.
https://www.kenoshanews.com/news/loc...2d5506efb.html
The mob, not just Rosenbaum chased Kyle and it can be seen people throwing things at him. Someone behind Kyle shoots and Kyle turns around as Rosenbaum charges him.
Real simple if Rosenbaum hadn’t been chasing Kyle and then charging him, Rosenbaum would be alive today, a choice he made to chase then engage from someone fleeing from him and others.
https://summit.news/2020/08/27/video...t-shoot-first/
Kyle then makes a phone call and then this is said:
https://nypost.com/2020/08/28/allege...mid-new-video/
So once again Kyle is running and is pursued by a mob of people. You know the ones that said “ “Get him! Get that dude!” and “ “beat him up,”. Kyle trips and the mob attacks him again. Kyle kept running and was pursued by those wishing to harm him, at least by their actions (jumping kick when Kyle on ground, skate board to the head, etc.). One more person would have been alive if they would have let him get away and not attack him. It's just silly to say that they were "simply tried to take the gun away from Rittenhouse." when they talked of harming him and already attacked him physically.
Here is my question to you, what was Kyle supposed to do in any of this situation? If your going to say he shouldn’t have been there, then my reply is neither should the rioters and those wising to do harm!

Sigh... This is using too many words to say so little. You're merely trying to excuse Rittenhouse while assuming the worst of any person he encountered. I don't really have much interest in entertaining your excuses and attempts at distortions. Good luck.

[Aexodus]

Sigh... This is using too many words to say so little. You're merely trying to excuse Rittenhouse while assuming the worst of any person he encountered. I don't really have much interest in entertaining your excuses and attempts at distortions. Good luck.

Nice work Frostwulf.

With regard to the media, it’s clear they don’t care if violent rioters try to kill you, burn down your property etc. They are despicable. I hope this episode wakes a lot of people up.