Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

[swabian]

It’s not BIPOC’s job to make whites feel comfortable, though their bloody heirloom of racist white privilege may tell them theft is a crime. The discomfort you feel is merely the Spirit of Anti Racism at work.

I'm not frequenting this page very often, but i have seen a couple of posts by you and they seemed alright and actually quite bright. Now you mean to impress upon me the impression that i was completely wrong with my idea of who you are, yes?

[Infidel144]

The first one of course. The malice aforethought is given by his demonstrated intent to inflict serious bodily injury and his reckless disregard for human life. The killing was intentional and therefore premeditated. We saw Chauvin kneeling with full weight on Floyd's neck even after he has lost consciousness and after the ambulance had arrived. Even as he was approached by one of the rescue personnel he hesitated to lift his knee. This clearly shows he was doing his utmost to ensure Floyd's death and enjoying it to the very last second. In all likelihood he knew he would be fired, sued and incarcerated but simply didn't care.

The first one:
(1) causes the death of a human being with premeditation and with intent to effect the death of the person or of another;
I do not see "malice aforethought" in Minnesota statute.
Reckless disregard in not in the First Degree Murder statute, "extreme indifference" is (under 6, 7 and 8).
Minnesota does not have "serious bodily injury" it has:
Subd. 8. Great bodily harm. "Great bodily harm" means bodily injury which creates a high probability of death, or which causes serious permanent disfigurement, or which causes a permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ or other serious bodily harm.
Yet the autopsy Cope cited said "No life-threatening injuries identified".
You claim the killing was intentional and therefore premeditated.
Intent and premeditation are both defined by statute:
(3) "Intentionally" means that the actor either has a purpose to do the thing or cause the result specified or believes that the act performed by the actor, if successful, will cause that result. In addition, except as provided in clause (6), the actor must have knowledge of those facts which are necessary to make the actor's conduct criminal and which are set forth after the word "intentionally."
609.18 DEFINITION.
For the purposes of sections 609.185, 609.19, 609.2661, and 609.2662, "premeditation" means to consider, plan or prepare for, or determine to commit, the act referred to prior to its commission.
You seem to be claiming premeditation necessarily follows intent.
How do you know he was kneeling with full weight?
In watching the video it looks to me as though Chauvin gets off of Floyd as soon as the paramedic signals him to do so (after they bring the stretcher down (@ 7:50 in linked video).
Your overall argument seems circular.
Floyd dead=intent=premeditation=murder
Sources:
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.02/pdf https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.18
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.185
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcFo...ctr=1597267474

[Lord Thesaurian]

I'm not frequenting this page very often, but i have seen a couple of posts by you and they seemed alright and actually quite bright. Now you mean to impress upon me the impression that i was completely wrong with my idea of who you are, yes?

Demeaning the intelligence of BIPOC is merely further evidence of racist white privilege. I know I’m not wrong about who you are. I believe in you. Let the Spirit of Anti Racism flow through. In any case, reparations will be collected whether that makes you uncomfortable or not.

[wanderwegger]

One question is why they arrested Floyd and handcuffed in the first place? He could have innocently passed the counterfeit money someone gave him. I would hope thst if I unknowingly passed some conterfeit money I got as change that the police would ask me abou it first instead of automatically handcuffing me.

Just brainstorming, maybe some sort of systemic racism in police enforcement.

[swabian]

How do we know if "full body weight" was applied? I don't see how you can tell from that video one way or the other. And deliberating murdering someone in front of witnesses does not make sense.

Also, Floyd was a big guy 6' 7" (2 meters) and a guy that big could be difficult to control if he struggled, even handcuffed and with several officers, especially if a man was on some kind of drugs. A large man like that, even if handcuffed, could possibly injury somebody if he suddenly turned violent, head butting, or lashing out with his legs. Have you every tried to control a really big guy when they were violently struggling? Although in Floyd's case, there is no indicating that I can see which would have indicated to the cops that Floyd was on drugs or would likely turn violent.

One question is why they arrested Floyd and handcuffed in the first place? He could have innocently passed the counterfeit money someone gave him. I would hope thst if I unknowingly passed some conterfeit money I got as change that the police would ask me abou it first instead of automatically handcuffing me.

And deliberately murdering someone in front of witnesses does not make sense. It is very likely Chauvin was messing with Floyd, deliberately using more force than necessary, but most persons in a neck hold like that do not die. They are risky, though, which is why they are discouraged from being used, but they are not automatically fatal. I don't see a deliberate attempt to kill Floyd, maybe just an attempt to cause Floyd some unnecessary discomfort. If the neck hold trigger some medical condition (hypertension, effect of drug use, etc.) Floyd's death likely came as a surprise to Chauvin. While Chauvin might very possibly have had some comflicts with Floyd previously, I have yet to seenany actual evidence. Do you have some?

I appreciate your posting, those are actual points being raised concisely and without douchebaggery.

In the video, Chauvin is uprightly kneeling on Floyd, so that the angle of his torso was parallel to the angle of his lower body proportions. In such a position, he only can have his right knee off of the ground and he held that position almost all the time. Maybe that does not mean 100% body weight on his left knee, but 95% or at least at least 80%.

What i already mentioned and what you didn't address in your response to me was that Floyd needn't to have been restrained by more than one man, if he was held for most of the time by 3 men and during all of that time, it was Chauvin who was kneeling on Floyd's neck, until the ambulance arrived.

[Infidel144]

It’s not BIPOC’s job to make whites feel comfortable, though their bloody heirloom of racist white privilege may tell them theft is a crime. The discomfort you feel is merely the Spirit of Anti Racism at work.

It is dominant white culture that places:
"Heavy value on ownership of goods, space, property"
Expecting, much less demanding, that black or brown bodies follow these white culture norms is white supremacy and racism.
It is known that property is theft.

[swabian]

Just brainstorming, maybe some sort of systemic racism in police enforcement.

I think "systemic racism" is the same as "racism in the system". But what really is "in the system". Well i think this only applies if a states' laws imply measures that openly intend racial discrimination, like the Nuremberg Laws in Germany 1935. Or the South African apartheid laws or the laws in the US immigration acts in the 30's. Unless a state does not by order of law enforce things like "blacks need to stay out", then it is hardly systemic. This is binary in this case. Either it is demanded by law or it isn't.

The number of racists buried in the US institutions does not account for the entire system and is of course not binary: it makes a difference if there are 5% racists, or 10% or 80%. If it is too many, even a declaredly non-racist system (which the US is) will really become racist, whether it is contained in the constitution or not. But i see no real indication that this is the case yet.

[Infidel144]

Peaceful Protesters peacefully try to provide ventilation and a means of escape for parents boarded up and kept separated from their children in a nightmarish horror facility:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

CHICAGO (CBS) — The Ronald McDonald House in Streeterville was among the establishments targeted during looting in Chicago early Monday morning.

The facility provides a home and resources to families while a child receives treatment at local hospitals.
Vandals struck the facility at 211 E. Grand Ave. near Lurie Children’s Hospital as families were sleeping inside.
Several windows were smashed, and the front door had to be boarded up.

source:
https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2020/08...oters-targets/

[Mithradates]

"I don’t care if someone decides to loot a Gucci, or a Macy’s, or a Nike, that makes sure that that person eats [and] has clothes. That is reparations. Anything they wanna take, take it, because these businesses have insurance."

When you try to explain something stupid and you just make it even worse

[Aexodus]

I was referred to a Ronald McDonald house once when I was younger. Attacking them is absolutely obscene.

[Lord Thesaurian]

When you try to explain something stupid and you just make it even worse

Welcome to the new normal

[Infidel144]

Peaceful Portland Protesters continue to Peacefully Protest weeks after they Peacefully achieved victory against vile federal Sturmabteilung who Violently and Illegally Occupied the Peoples Courthouse.
In the 77th night of Peaceful Protest the Peaceful Protesters celebrate baseball, by Peacefully trying to play catch and have a Picnic with local and state police. Being Gentle and Considerate the Peaceful Protesters refrained from using baseballs, which, being very solid objects, can cause Unintentional Injury. In this game of catch they used much more yielding objects entirely suited to Peaceful Protests, and very unlikely to cause any sort of harm whatsoever, such as tiny fist size pebbles, commercial grade fireworks and explosives, while providing traffic control and sending drink containers and food to undoubtedly thirsty and hungry officers along with decorative materials. In the great baseball tradition Peaceful Protesters even hosted a barbecue!
Unfortunately, the local and state police completely misunderstand the Peaceful Protesters...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The night brought many hallmarks of the months-long protests: calls for reform, efforts by a small group to provoke law enforcement and tear gas by police to break up the crowd. This time, it was Portland police forcing people away from the Justice Center and Mark O. Hatfield U.S. Courthouse, which stand side-by-side on Southwest Third Avenue.
...
Protesters set off large fireworks, blocked traffic from exiting a parking garage and threw objects and an unknown liquid toward police before officers released the gas late Wednesday.

Police said in a press release Thursday morning that the “life safety” issues that prompted them to resort to tear gas stemmed from actions including “a large explosive and other fireworks were thrown towards officers, along with fist sized rocks, bottles, and cans of paint.” Further, they said, “during the dispersal, one officer’s hand was severely hurt and several others sustained minor injuries.
...
Around 10:50 p.m., someone set off a large firework over the federal courthouse fence. Another firework exploded minutes later. A small fire was sparked near the stone building steps. It was unclear how it started. Someone started a second small fire in the middle of Third Avenue by setting alight a pig’s head. The fires died out within several minutes.
====
The Portland Police Bureau said that starting at 8:30 p.m., the group blocked traffic for several hours on Southwest 3rd Avenue at Southwest Main Street. During that time, several group members made speeches while others chanted.

By 10:30 p.m., police said members of the group threw “an unknown foreign substance” towards the front doors of the PPB Central Precinct located on Southwest 2nd Avenue.

At the same time, police said others in the crowd began launching “commercial grade fireworks” towards the fence protecting the Hatfield Federal Courthouse on Southwest 3rd Avenue. A fire was also lit outside of the building.
...
After the Wednesday night riot declaration, police said the group began moving back south to the Justice Center. As they marched, some “threw eggs and continued to launch commercial grade fireworks towards officers.”

Sources:
https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/...e-updates.html
https://www.kptv.com/news/riot-decla...4944ca6d4.html

[Infidel144]

Peaceful Protesters Peacefully escort someone from Peaceful Protest.
Obvious KKK trans woman objects to the Peaceful manner in which Peaceful Protesters do this. Peaceful Protesters receive reparations from the KKK trans woman and Peacefully explain the error of zer ways.
A Black Body that has internalized racism objects to Peaceful ProtestersPeacefully explaining the how things are to the KKK trans woman.
Neo-nazi white supremacist violently comes to the aid KKK trans woman ally.
Neo-nazi white supremacist returns to vehilcle, while Peaceful Protesters Peacfullly try to detain him.
Another obvious KKK woman comes to his defence, trying to deflect from his violent assault on Peacful Protests claiming the Neo-nazi white supremacist didn't do anything. After Peaceful Protesters Peacefully defend themselves from KKK woman, Neo-nazi white supremacist flees from Peaceful Protesters who pursue.
Neo-nazi white supramcist crashes his vehicle, and Peaceful Protesters show their humanitarian concern by Peacfully removing him from his vehicle and Peacefully putting him down to rest.
They are so concerned that with the Neo-nazi white supremacist's well being that the Peaceful Protesters start to check his reactions to being Peacefully touched about the head.
When Peaceful Protesters start to leave, after being assured of the Neo-nazi's well being, the Peaceful Protester who seems to have been taking the lead Peacefully helps the Neo-nazi white supremacist fall asleep.

Links to twitter videos along with some news commentary::

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Note the videos are violent.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1295263757032214528
https://twitter.com/i/status/1295304119532392448
https://twitter.com/i/status/1295337458096148481
https://twitter.com/i/status/1295283582747865089
https://twitter.com/i/status/1295245694177951748
https://twitter.com/i/status/1295246011032461312

A series of clips on social media shows the victim being surrounded in his white Ford truck at 10.30 p.m. Sunday as others attacked a woman he was with, who was punched and even tackled to the ground during the violent melee.


“He didn’t do nothing!” someone could be heard calling as others punched the driver as he sat in his truck, which was also repeatedly kicked.

He was dragged from the truck and tackled to the ground as he begged for help — getting repeatedly punched as he tried to call his wife while pleading with his attackers as he sat on the ground, the videos show.

As the mob dispersed to watch another fight, the main offender circled back around — kicking the defenseless driver in the face from behind, instantly knocking him out with his head cracking on the road.


“What the f–k is you talkin’ about n—er!” the attacker — wearing a shirt with “SECURITY” on the front and back — screamed after the thud of his victim’s head hitting the ground.

News sources:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/portland-...n-video-report
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9674096.html
https://nypost.com/2020/08/17/blm-mo...m-crash-truck/

[wanderwegger]

The stated and the real are determined by mechanisms of enforcement not laws. Sexism, racism, elitism of all types you can imagine exist independent of laws because their before is older than the laws made to address them. By necessity laws almost always come after a problem has been identified because laws are a solution. The law seeks to solve an ill that already exists. Behemoths like racism, sexism and elitism take far more than laws to overcome. Throw in the weight of history and the task is Sisyphean. Still worth trying of course.

I think "systemic racism" is the same as "racism in the system". But what really is "in the system". Well i think this only applies if a states' laws imply measures that openly intend racial discrimination, like the Nuremberg Laws in Germany 1935. Or the South African apartheid laws or the laws in the US immigration acts in the 30's. Unless a state does not by order of law enforce things like "blacks need to stay out", then it is hardly systemic. This is binary in this case. Either it is demanded by law or it isn't.

The number of racists buried in the US institutions does not account for the entire system and is of course not binary: it makes a difference if there are 5% racists, or 10% or 80%. If it is too many, even a declaredly non-racist system (which the US is) will really become racist, whether it is contained in the constitution or not. But i see no real indication that this is the case yet.

[Heathen Hammer]

Just brainstorming, maybe some sort of systemic racism in police enforcement.

Or that he was high on fentanyl. If you get behind the wheel while high as a kite you deserve to be dragged out of car and handcuffed.

[antaeus]

Or that he was high on fentanyl. If you get behind the wheel while high as a kite you deserve to be dragged out of car and handcuffed.

And killed?

[Common Soldier]

Or that he was high on fentanyl. If you get behind the wheel while high as a kite you deserve to be dragged out of car and handcuffed.

Sorry, but while he did take fentanyl, it was not at high enough levels to be initoxicating.

Plus there was no indication Floyd's behaviour he was high, and the cops had no way to know he was on fentanyl. Floyd was in a stopped car, and he was arrested for passing a counterfeit $20, not intoxication.

I have to wonder if Floyd had been white accountant, would they have arrested and him handcuffed? I would hope if I accidently passed counterfeir bill I was given, the cops would give me a chance to explain before handcuffing and putting a knee on my neck. If they did that to me, it would make me a little annoyed.

However, perhaps the cops noticed indications of intoxication, slightly slurring of speech, glassy eyed expression, etc., that is not readily apparent in the video. With Floyd being. big guy, 6'7", and his criminal record, perhaps the cops decided not to take chances. That is why guilt needs to be determined by. jury.

[Cope]

And killed?

George Floyd did not deserve to die. Though what we're discussing is accountability, not whether his death was just. Based on the evidence we've seen so far, it is likely that Floyd was largely responsible for the events that precipitated his death. He chose to abuse fentanyl, methamphetamine and cannabis; he chose to steal cigarettes by passing a counterfeit bill; he chose to get behind the wheel of his car whilst intoxicated; and he chose to behave erratically and resist arrest when confronted by the police.

None of that means that the officers involved in Floyd's death are innocent, but I find it difficult to imagine, given the circumstances, that their conduct amounts to murder.

[Common Soldier]

George Floyd did not deserve to die. Though what we're discussing is accountability, not whether his death was just. Based on the evidence we've seen so far, it is likely that Floyd was largely responsible for the events that precipitated his death. He chose to abuse fentanyl, methamphetamine and cannabis; he chose to steal cigarettes by passing a counterfeit bill; he chose to get behind the wheel of his car whilst intoxicated; and he chose to behave erratically and resist arrest when confronted by the police.

Non of that means that the officers involved in Floyd's death are innocent, but I find it difficult to imagine, given the circumstances, that their conduct amounts to murder.

We do not know if he passed the counterfeit bill accidently or deliberately. He could have gotten the counferfeit bill from someone else and innocently passed it along. Fentanyl is used as a pain medicine and athlete's often develope aches and pains, especially ex football players, so perhaps he was self medicating. Metamphetamine he was abusing, and the drugs might or.might not have contributed to his dearh, but he would not have died that day without a knee on his neck.

Even if Floyd died.from a heart attack that just happened to happen at the time arrest, the cops would have been guilty of negligence waiting 9 minites before calling for medical help during an heart attack is unacceptable.

Floyd's deafh is all on the cops - Floyd was in obvious distress, and the cops.callously did nothing. The use of the neck hold seemed unnecessary, Floyd waa handcuffed, and did not seem to be strugling. Neck holds have know to be lethal. I don't thinl the cops intended to kill Floyd, but a drunk driver does not intend to kill his victims either.

While.a trial might reveal evidence that would show the copa were not quite as bad as it appears. maybe they could see he was intoxicated and were he might turn suddenly violemt, I don't see avoiding the conclusion they were criminally neglegent

[antaeus]

George Floyd did not deserve to die. Though what we're discussing is accountability, not whether his death was just. Based on the evidence we've seen so far, it is likely that Floyd was largely responsible for the events that precipitated his death. He chose to abuse fentanyl, methamphetamine and cannabis; he chose to steal cigarettes by passing a counterfeit bill; he chose to get behind the wheel of his car whilst intoxicated; and he chose to behave erratically and resist arrest when confronted by the police.

Non of that means that the officers involved in Floyd's death are innocent, but I find it difficult to imagine, given the circumstances, that their conduct amounts to murder.

Agree 100%, but I was responding specifically to Heathen's facetious "Or that he was high on fentanyl. If you get behind the wheel while high as a kite you deserve to be dragged out of car and handcuffed." with an equally facetious response. Heathen seemed to be seeking to re-frame the conversation away from Chauvin's accountability.

As you say, none of that suggests Floyd deserved to die. Every time we refocus the conversation to Floyd's habits or behaviour, we risk justifying Chauvin's overreach. That's why I will continue to ask anybody who insinuates that Floyd's drug habits or background put him at fault for his death, whether they think he deserved to die. I agree that it shouldn't be a case of premeditated murder, but everything I've seen suggests that there are definitely grounds for a lesser homicide charge - the results of which will be decided by a jury with greater access to the details of the case, not us.