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Thread: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

  1. #281

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    If I were Ms. Harteau, I would be more circumspect:


    Minneapolis Police Chief Janeé Harteau resigned abruptly Friday amid growing criticism from the public and the City Council following the fatal police shooting of Justine Damond.
    The chief’s departure came at the request of Mayor Betsy Hodges, who promptly nominated Assistant Chief Medaria Arradondo, a 28-year veteran of the force, to replace Harteau. The move ended Harteau’s 4½-year run as the first woman and first openly gay person to head the department.
    The death of Damond, a native Australian who had moved to Minneapolis to be with her fiancé, thrust Minneapolis into the international spotlight. It also has generated public skepticism about the department and its training, including from city officials who have questioned why the officers involved didn’t turn on their body cameras.
    https://www.startribune.com/minneapo...gns/435864713/
    George Taylor is an actor known for his roles in the movies Wanderlust and Howard's End. George Taylor is also the name of the character depicted by Charlton Heston in 1968 film Planet of the Apes. As neither persona is particularly pertinent to this discussion, one assumes an error has occurred.
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  2. #282
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    I mean obviously he’s a moron trying to divert any blame from the police officers but that’s also what a ton of unions do, protect even their members at the cost of harming the reputation of the group as a whole. Police Unions in general have too much power to keep members on the force and in the case of the police that means keeping people in positions where they can possibly exert deadly force on people without being punished. However, funny enough, in this situation the guy who did the deadly act has already been arrested and charged yet we’re still seeing rioting and looting that I think it is fair to call acts of terrorism. Not all protestors are acting like terrorists but it’s not racist to say that violent rioters are terrorists
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Strider View Post
    Oh, and this is false. As a white person, I can say that it's not possible to be racist to a white person.
    Congratulations, you just lowered my IQ by 10 points.

  3. #283

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Imagine thinking that the racist hellhole that is the United States of America is really 'The Land of the Free'...

    Gullible idiots...

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  4. #284
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    I’m curious to where you’re from “TheLeft” because I’m sure your country is responsible for some pretty dirty stuff too, considering basically every country is
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrZanyGaming View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Strider View Post
    Oh, and this is false. As a white person, I can say that it's not possible to be racist to a white person.
    Congratulations, you just lowered my IQ by 10 points.

  5. #285
    Cope's Avatar 777777777777777
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    It isn't entirely clear who Kroll is referring to when he mentions a "terrorist movement". As per the end of the paragraph, it seems more likely that he's referring to the rioters rather than any and all protesters. Here is the full expert:

    Kroll raises some valid points, although the tone of his letter and his reference to Floyd's criminal history demonstrates that he would rather close ranks around his colleagues than facilitate justice. This sort of institutional protectionism is why independent procedures designed to investigate each and every fatality involving police officers are needed.

    Notwithstanding, I'm not surprised that law enforcement and political leaders are trying to throw one another under the bus; the buck has to stop somewhere after all.
    Last edited by Cope; June 02, 2020 at 03:33 PM.

  6. #286

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by tgoodenow View Post
    Makes about as much sense as the liberals telling me that the protests are KKK members from out of state while they encourage their supporters to donate to the bail funds.
    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    Let’s support the riots then 4 pages later claim all the “real BLM supporters” are peaceful and that the rioters are right wing bad actors lol
    The cognitive dissonance in the shifting narrative...

  7. #287
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    On Monday night shops in Manhattan, including Macy’s flagship store in Herald Square and shops in Rockefeller Center, were broken into after the newly imposed 11 p.m. curfew went into effect. Cuomo says the New York Police Department failed to stop them.

    “I am disappointed and outraged,” Cuomo said. “They are supposed to protect the community and protect the property, they did not do that in New York City last night.”

    The governor says the state’s National Guard is on standby and he has offered to send them. But he says no mayor in any city in New York, including New York City’s Bill de Blasio, has requested their help. And he says he won’t deploy them unless asked by local leaders saying it would cause chaos and he’d have to “kick out” the mayor from office in order to do it.

    “You’d have to displace a mayor in the middle of this situation, and file charges and have a hearing,” Cuomo said. “Governmentally, it is absurd.”

    Cuomo, who has had differences with the New York City mayor in the past, says he has no plans to try to remove him.

    The governor says the National Guard is not a trained police force and he believes that the NYPD, with its largest in the nation 38,000 member force, can stop the looting if deployed properly and given the right direction and support to carry out the mission.
    https://www.wamc.org/post/cuomo-outr...nypd-and-mayor
    De Blasio’s political pandering comes at the direct cost of the city he is supposed to serve as looters ransack shops and retailers. Utterly disgraceful.

  8. #288

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    When you look at the stats, what you see is that the number of people (not just African Americans) involved in fatal interactions with the police is far higher in the US than it is in other comparable countries. That is the common problem which ought to be addressed. Focusing on the racial disparities - which are largely a consequence of social/economic/cultural factors rather than policing - marginalizes the broader picture and drags the conversation toward narrow, divisive identity narratives.
    Can you link to the data that informed your views.

  9. #289
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.


  10. #290

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    This does not break down racial data. I'd also argue that we need to examine more than just numbers. There are racial disparities in traffic stops, sentencing, or bail. The narrative trying to narrow down the causes for these protests miss underlying resentment and belief that African Americans are not treated equally by the justice system. There are legitimate grievances that deserve examination, discussion, and compromise. Especially when we consider the history of this country. Racism did not in in 1964, nor in the year 2000, or 2008, or 2020. And the fact that things are significantly better does not make the protests any less legitimate.

  11. #291

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    How does India manage to do so well?
    "They took back all the airports." - President Donald J. Trump, July 4, 2019
    "You're a lying dog-faced pony soldier." - former Vice President Joseph R. Biden, Jr., February 9, 2020


  12. #292

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by skh1 View Post
    How does India manage to do so well?
    These statistics are imperfect. Considering the relative weakness of government power in many regions, the bureaucratic bloat in the Indian gov., and the enormous challenge of collecting statistics in a country of over a billion souls, I suspect that the actual number for India is significantly worse.

  13. #293
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    He is as old as Gandalf, but he put across his point well.
    Better than I was expecting.For one brief moment, he was thinking about Sanders. "It's not about me. It's about you.It's about us".
    ----

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    Trump's Racism: An Oral History - The Atlantic
    New poll: 83% of African Americans say Trump is a racist - Axios
    ------
    Four Extremist Groups Suspected of Involvement in Protest ...

    Minnesota Governor Tim Walz cited unconfirmed reports Saturday that white supremacists had been behind violent protests in Minneapolis.
    Although many white supremacists don't advocate violence, a growing number of individuals inspired by far-right ideology have carried out deadly shootings in recent years. The violent elements of the far right are known as “accelerationists” because they seek to accelerate a race war.

    FBI Director Christopher Wray has said that most of the FBI's domestic terrorism investigations involve white supremacist groups.

    Given that antifa is not a group, it is uncertain how Trump intends to label it as a terrorist organization. A Justice Department spokeswoman did not respond to a request for comment.
    ------
    Statistics. Facts.
    All US extremist killings in 2018 had links to right-wing extremism
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  14. #294
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    This does not break down racial data.
    My argument was that there are more fatal interactions between civilians and the police in the US than there are in comparable countries. I sourced the data for that conclusion.

    I'd also argue that we need to examine more than just numbers. There are racial disparities in traffic stops, sentencing, or bail. The narrative trying to narrow down the causes for these protests miss underlying resentment and belief that African Americans are not treated equally by the justice system. There are legitimate grievances that deserve examination, discussion, and compromise. Especially when we consider the history of this country. Racism did not in in 1964, nor in the year 2000, or 2008, or 2020. And the fact that things are significantly better does not make the protests any less legitimate.
    If you're convinced that African Americans are significantly more likely to interact with law enforcement because of police bias, you should be able to provide statistics/comprehensive analyses supporting that conclusion. Flat comparisons which rely on the the disparity=discrimination fallacy serve only to support the conclusion that the racial bias argument is more a product of an institutionalized social narrative than it is of reality.

    This BBC article provides a clear example of "journalism" designed to support an existing narrative rather than to investigate and scrutinize. No attempt is made to control for the disproportionate number interactions that African Americans have with police, nor is any attempt made to analyse why that disparity exists. Equally, the raw figures for the number of African Americans involved in fatal police shootings are hidden behind percentile comparisons, and no attempt is made to analyse how many of these shootings were justified.

    Instead, we have to rely on random Twitter detectives for more thoughtful analyses:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Source for the full discussion.

  15. #295

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post

    Also mongrel what’s your opinion on Andrew Cuomo saying he’s going to order the National Guard into the city? Just curious.
    No different to any other official lawfully exercising their powers, why ask?
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  16. #296

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    My argument was that there are more fatal interactions between civilians and the police in the US than there are in comparable countries. I sourced the data for that conclusion.
    Yes, and again, it doesn't break down racial data for United States. This is important, because the racial element is very important.

    If you're convinced that African Americans are significantly more likely to interact with law enforcement because of police bias, you should be able to provide statistics/comprehensive analyses supporting that conclusion. Flat comparisons which rely on the the disparity=discrimination fallacy serve only to support the conclusion that the racial bias argument is more a product of an institutionalized social narrative than it is of reality.
    It's not a simple flat comparison. Sentencing and plea bargains for example, are compared averages, not a simple difference in numbers. If African Americans on average, are 20% more likely than Whites to be incarcerated, this disparity is not explained by a simple difference in numbers. Nor is it appropriate to ask for "proof" that racism is responsible in lieu of an explanation for why racism is unlikely to be the culprit. Especially considering the history of this country, and a plethora of literature that points out deficiencies in the justice system along racial lines.



    This BBC article provides a clear example of "journalism" designed to support an existing narrative rather than to investigate and scrutinize. No attempt is made to control for the disproportionate number interactions that African Americans have with police, nor is any attempt made to analyse why that disparity exists. Equally, the raw figures for the number of African Americans involved in fatal police shootings are hidden behind percentile comparisons, and no attempt is made to analyse how many of these shootings were justified.
    This is a red herring, as this wasn't the evidence I presented for scrutiny. There are numerous studies that cover the issue of institutional racism within the justice system. They vary from macro analyses of misdemeanors to fairly detailed looks at the enormous racial disparity in the death penalty. Moreover, complaining about simple "number comparisons" isn't actually debunking claims of racial bias in law enforcement. To disprove a claim, one must examine its veracity rather than complain about it's paucity. If you want to be lazy, you're free to do so, but you did not exactly debunk or disprove anything.

  17. #297

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    The police attacks protesters. "Protesters turn violent."
    Shady figures that could very well be civil policemen nonchalantly cause harm to property. "Protesters turn violent."
    The police retreats and largely ignored and poor communities see a number of looters. "Protesters turn violent."
    Protesters try to stop looters. "Protesters turn violent."
    Protesters clean out after looters to help businesses. "Protesters turn violent."
    The police attacks protesters to clear a path for the president for him to get a photo opp. "Protesters turn violent."

    No. The police turned violent and they did their best to agitate and provoke the protesters.
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  18. #298
    Cope's Avatar 777777777777777
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Yes, and again, it doesn't break down racial data for United States. This is important, because the racial element is very important.
    My source wasn't intended to break down the racial data. Your perennial insistence that an ostensible instance of police brutality must be rooted in systemic racism (even though you've provided no evidence to support this claim) is the very problem that my original post raised. You are yet to address it any substantive way.

    It's not a simple flat comparison. Sentencing and plea bargains for example, are compared averages, not a simple difference in numbers. If African Americans on average, are 20% more likely than Whites to be incarcerated, this disparity is not explained by a simple difference in numbers. Nor is it appropriate to ask for "proof" that racism is responsible in lieu of an explanation for why racism is unlikely to be the culprit. Especially considering the history of this country, and a plethora of literature that points out deficiencies in the justice system along racial lines.


    This data doesn't provide evidence for why the disparity exists. Insisting that your race-based hypothesis is true because it hasn't been disproved is a non argument.

    This is a red herring, as this wasn't the evidence I presented for scrutiny. There are numerous studies that cover the issue of institutional racism within the justice system. They vary from macro analyses of misdemeanors to fairly detailed looks at the enormous racial disparity in the death penalty. Moreover, complaining about simple "number comparisons" isn't actually debunking claims of racial bias in law enforcement.
    You're shifting the goal posts of what's being discussed. First this was a debate about police brutality as it related to specific case. Then it became a debate about racial bias in policing. Then it was about whether rioting is a either legitimate or useful protesting tactic. Now you're trying to make it about "institutional racism in the justice system". The next inevitable shift will be toward general liberal talking points on "systemic racism". And I don't think the board can take another one of your rants inspired by the cult of 1619.

    To disprove a claim, one must examine its veracity rather than complain about it's paucity. If you want to be lazy, you're free to do so, but you did not exactly debunk or disprove anything.
    Dreadful bait. I won't be replying to you again.

    I'll end with this: the overwhelming institutional support that these protests - and in some instances, riots - have received from politicians, celebrities, multinational corporations, press giants and academics exposes exactly what's going on here. This isn't about George Floyd, police brutality, injustice or oppression: it's a consequence of the racial conditioning which has been promoted by all of the above mentioned entities for years.
    Last edited by Cope; June 02, 2020 at 06:53 PM.

  19. #299

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post

    I'll end with this: the overwhelming institutional support that these protests - and in some instances, riots - have received from politicians, celebrities, multinational corporations, press giants and academics exposes exactly what's going on here. This isn't about George Floyd, police brutality, injustice or oppression; it's just the usual electoral race baiting.
    Bollocks . A man is throttled to death over a prolongued period for no reason. This after a serial chain of killings by police and a wave of Karens calling the police on people simply because they find the presence of black people offensive. However, unlike in the past, everyone now has a decent movie camera, no matter how crap their phone, so we now get to see what happens before the police or the Karens get a chance to perjure themselves. At some point this nonsense had to come to an end.

    However I would say this troubles me most as a Christian


    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...trump-photo-op
    Last edited by mongrel; June 02, 2020 at 08:04 PM.
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  20. #300

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    My source wasn't intended to break down the racial data. Your perennial insistence that an ostensible instance of police brutality must be rooted in systemic racism (even though you've provided no evidence to support this claim) is the very problem that my original post raised. You are yet to address it any substantive way.
    The proof was posted in the original reply. You're more than welcome to peruse through the links and google even more of them. Research into this area is rather extensive.

    This data doesn't provide evidence for why the disparity exists. Insisting that your race-based hypothesis is true because it hasn't been disproved is a non argument.
    I'm not sure what your point here is. We all know that nobody will come out and say, "my sentencing recommendation was based on my racial bias". This study, and many others point out that African Americans are consistently handed the short stick in many areas of the justice system. This trend is so pervasive that the burden of evidence now falls onto the justice system to demonstrate how these discrepancies can be explained. Otherwise, racism doesn't just become the most likely conclusion, but the only one, since proponents such as yourself do not offer an alternative explanation that's just as thorough as the one provided by "the cult of 1619".

    You're shifting the goal posts of what's being discussed. First this was a debate about police brutality as it related to specific case. Then it became a debate about racial bias in policing. Then it was about whether rioting is a either legitimate or useful protesting tactic. Now you're trying to make it about "institutional racism in the justice system". The next inevitable shift will be toward general liberal talking points on "systemic racism". And I don't think the board can take another one of your rants inspired by the cult of 1619.
    I'm not sure why my post is a "rant", when I point out that the narrative of "systemic racism" is supported by numerous studies and data. What does that make your categorical denial of institutional racism in the justice system?

    Dreadful bait. I won't be replying to you again.

    I'll end with this: the overwhelming institutional support that these protests - and in some instances, riots - have received from politicians, celebrities, multinational corporations, press giants and academics exposes exactly what's going on here. This isn't about George Floyd, police brutality, injustice or oppression: it's a consequence of the racial conditioning which has been promoted by all of the above mentioned entities for years.
    The Choo Choo train came so fast today.

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