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Thread: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

  1. #241

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    I heard recently that American police is under no obligation to protect people, or even to save peoples lives when they are attacked right in front of them. Is that correct?
    Courts (including SCOTUS) have ruled that police do not have a duty to protect you.

    2nd question, are those three officers that stood there doing nothing while their colleague killed Floyd going to be prosecuted?
    Last I read the prosecutor indicated he was going to.

  2. #242

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    I heard recently that American police is under no obligation to protect people, or even to save peoples lives when they are attacked right in front of them. Is that correct?

    2nd question, are those three officers that stood there doing nothing while their colleague killed Floyd going to be prosecuted?
    The first question sounds a little absurd to me. I don't know the specifics, but I can see how the legal minutia would be relevant.

    To your second question, I do not believe they are though I believe the Attorney is heading that way.

  3. #243

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    This is the reason why protests will continue.Complete and utter stupidity.https://twitter.com/dannychun/status...42764583264256
    Last edited by mongrel; June 02, 2020 at 02:25 AM.
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  4. #244

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    This is the reason why protests will continue.Complete and utter stupidity.https://twitter.com/dannychun/status...42764583264256
    And while this could be excused as an isolated incident, as an honest mistake, as unintentional racism that's bias rather than explicit hatred... there are far too many clips of police using brutality and violence against peaceful protesters. Yes, the looting and violence is unfortunate, but that's a side effect of the issues at play. It is a symptom, not the cause. Moreover, while police officers are in harm's way and they are not all bad, this is their job. It is their duty to put their life at risk, this is why they put on a uniform. They have a duty to respond to violence in a measured way. To accept risks, to accept vitriol, and to put themselves in dangerous situations.

    Beating reporters, shooting rubber bullets at protesters, and prioritizing their own safety over the safety of the public is not honorable conduct. And the way many police units and individual officers have responded to the riots is why we are in this situation in the first place. The worst part is, many in the government (including President Trump and Attorney-General Barr) are not interested in making amends. They are interested in winning the blame game.

  5. #245
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    Democrat run cities, Democrat run police forces, Democrat instigators, Democrat looters...and it's Trump's fault.
    For an American president "Hey, it wasn't my fault" is not an adequate excuse. He should be judged on what he's doing to remedy this situation. And, though I suppose this will take some time for you to digest, it is actually possible to say Trump is messing up without implying nobody else has been. America is now broadcasting itself to the world as a completely disfunctional, distopian on the verge of breakdown society. Is your reaction really to be first and foremost that 'Poor Donald is once again suffering a terrible injustice'? Stop defending him like he's a victim. He's supposed to be the one capable of moving his country away from this ruinous course. Judge him on how well he's doing that. Not on whether his feelings are getting hurt. How pathetic would a president have to be to require such defense from his supporters?
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  6. #246

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    I note that Trump had some peaceful protesters gassed and shoved out the way so he could have a picture of himself taken outside St John's Church holding a bible upside down. Classy.

    Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. Trump.
    Last edited by mongrel; June 02, 2020 at 03:53 AM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  7. #247

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Wait. de Blasio wants to know why he's having such a hard time with NYPD if they're Democrat.

    For reference on who started in New York City:
    https://imgur.com/gallery/7bYcTlA
    I noticed the protesters.were you throwing things at the parked SUV, which is not very peaceful, even before the second SUV showed up. So do you want us to conclude the protesters started it?

  8. #248
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    This is the reason why protests will continue.Complete and utter stupidity.https://twitter.com/dannychun/status...42764583264256
    For officer safety, people found at the scene may be briefly detained then questioned to find out whos who.
    This is a standard procedure even in Europe.

  9. #249

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    I noticed the protesters.were you throwing things at the parked SUV, which is not very peaceful, even before the second SUV showed up. So do you want us to conclude the protesters started it?
    No cop is allowed to ram a crowd with that much space behind them. What do you think this is? Zombieland?
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  10. #250

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    No cop is allowed to ram a crowd with that much space behind them. What do you think this is? Zombieland?
    I agree and so did thr police chief, there was no excuse for the action. However, the crowd was not as peaceful as some have claimed. If you are throwing things that is not peaceful.

  11. #251

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    I agree and so did thr police chief, there was no excuse for the action. However, the crowd was not as peaceful as some have claimed. If you are throwing things that is not peaceful.


    And there are lots of protesters that are peaceful and are attacked anyway. Police conduct has been unacceptable, and the presence of looters, violence, and riots do not absolve the police. Violence during protesters is a symptom. Police brutality is a problem, a problem that must go away because it's one of the reasons these protests have started in the first place.

  12. #252
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    This thread:

    20% of people saying there is no problem with race relations in the US and riots are a Antifa/leftist conspiracy.
    20% of people saying that while there are some problems with race relations in the US, they don't justify the kind of protest we're seeing. Dems are the problem.
    20% of people saying that while there are some problems with race relations in the US that justify protest, the riots are a step too far.
    20% of people saying that there are definitely big problems in the US and protests are justified and massive, but the riots are being played up beyond their actual scale by the media.
    20% of people saying that this is all the fault of white people and rioting is justified*.

    *Of course there is much more of a diverse and nuanced range of opinions. That isn't the point I'm making.

    And not a single person is willing to back down from their viewpoint. Kind of a microcosm of the real world, and exactly why there is currently an inability to get past problems.

    Perhaps we could attempt to develop some framework through which we can discuss this. Are there any shared opinions across the spectrum? Do we agree that Chauvin has been appropriately charged with 3rd degree murder/manslaughter? Do we agree that for what ever reason, black communities seem to experience more of these types of events than other communities?
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  13. #253
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    This thread:

    20% of people saying there is no problem with race relations in the US and riots are a Antifa/leftist conspiracy.
    20% of people saying that while there are some problems with race relations in the US, they don't justify the kind of protest we're seeing. Dems are the problem.
    20% of people saying that while there are some problems with race relations in the US that justify protest, the riots are a step too far.
    20% of people saying that there are definitely big problems in the US and protests are justified and massive, but the riots are being played up beyond their actual scale by the media.
    20% of people saying that this is all the fault of white people and rioting is justified*.

    *Of course there is much more of a diverse and nuanced range of opinions. That isn't the point I'm making.

    And not a single person is willing to back down from their viewpoint. Kind of a microcosm of the real world, and exactly why there is currently an inability to get past problems.

    Perhaps we could attempt to develop some framework through which we can discuss this. Are there any shared opinions across the spectrum? Do we agree that Chauvin has been appropriately charged with 3rd degree murder/manslaughter? Do we agree that for what ever reason, black communities seem to experience more of these types of events than other communities?
    It is bizarre that we've seen such disunity despite the bipartisan consensus that George Floyd was a victim of police brutality/malpractice. From my point of view, the central problems are as follows:

    1. The attempts to shoehorn Floyd's death into liberal/leftist social narratives about race rather than treating it as a instance of state tyranny which threatens all Americans.
    2. The acts of violence, looting and destruction of property which are being encouraged and perpetrated by marauders and political radicals.
    3. The vulturous attempts by the mainstream press and large corporations to hijack Floyd's death to serve their political and/or financial interests.
    4. The protesters' lack of direction or objectives.
    5. The preference for emotional arguments rather than proposals based on statistical analyses.

  14. #254
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    The killing wasn't racially motivated itself but that doesn't many of those protesting or rioting feel the same way. Race is definitely a factor in the unrest.
    Last edited by Vanoi; June 02, 2020 at 07:37 AM.

  15. #255
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    It is bizarre that we've seen such disunity despite the bipartisan consensus that George Floyd was a victim of police brutality/malpractice. From my point of view, the central problems are as follows:

    1. The attempts to shoehorn Floyd's death into liberal/leftist social narratives about race rather than treating it as a instance of state tyranny which threatens all Americans.
    2. The acts of violence, looting and destruction of property which are being encouraged and perpetrated by marauders and political radicals.
    3. The vulturous attempts by the mainstream press and large corporations to hijack Floyd's death to serve their political and/or financial interests.
    4. The protesters' lack of direction or objectives.
    5. The preference for emotional arguments rather than proposals based on statistical analyses.
    4 and 5 are great places to expand the conversation, and they do actually cut quite closely to why some of these problems are difficult to solve.

    A lack of direction in protest is a symptom of their spontaneous nature following the trigger event (for most participants - less so for those taking advantage) it makes it seemingly impossible to respond to in a meaningful and constructive way without appearing to condone the protests. While it is difficult to respond in a positive manner to a nebulous and disorganised rabble, it is easy to respond poorly - to challenge protest with the threat of violence - which the protests are responding to in the first place.

    I'd say a sense of equality and justice are emotional issues for many, which explains why emotional arguments are weighted so highly. It is difficult to establish a statistical analysis of the subjective experience of injustice. Analogies pull heavily on our sense of empathy for the suffering of others. We find it difficult to empathise with those whom we don't understand or those who's life experience claims to have suffered unintentionally because of us.

    I get the sense that you'd be happier if this week's protesters and last month's protesters shook hands and marched side by side towards Capitol Hill to make the point that government in all its levels is a problem?
    Last edited by antaeus; June 02, 2020 at 07:50 AM.

  16. #256
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Are there any shared opinions across the spectrum? Do we agree that Chauvin has been appropriately charged with 3rd degree murder/manslaughter? Do we agree that for what ever reason, black communities seem to experience more of these types of events than other communities?
    Well the first shouldn't be for anyone to decide, but a judge and jury. Certainly not an angry mob who saw a video on Twitter. Folk have a right to be angry and concerned when they see what appears to be the brutal treatment of a police suspect, whether he died or not. Makes no difference whether he is black, white, yellow or red. They can legitimately demand an enquiry and be annoyed and demonstrate if they feel justice hasn't been done. But smashing up cars, property and looting before anything happens is mob rule and shows a complete disrespect for the society they live in.

    Yes, there does appear to be a big problem with police enforcement in the US and this needs to be addressed. Whether it relates to race or not shouldn't be a factor in addressing it. Officers are too quick to grab a gun and have a duty of care to anyone detained or arrested up until they are prosecuted, whatever their crime and whoever they are. If you view every situation in terms of race, of us and them, you are going to get a distorted picture. Right now every public servant in uniform is being portrayed as a racist thug even by some sections of the media and that is a big problem because in order to enforce the law you need the trust of the community you police.

  17. #257
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Perhaps we could attempt to develop some framework through which we can discuss this. Are there any shared opinions across the spectrum? Do we agree that Chauvin has been appropriately charged with 3rd degree murder/manslaughter? Do we agree that for what ever reason, black communities seem to experience more of these types of events than other communities?
    To determine if black people are killed by police more than any other race, we would need to see evidence that breaks down the numbers of people killed by police every year per racial group.
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  18. #258

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    So I'm assuming that since Trump has threatened to deploy the US Military against his own people, the local militias/2nd Amendment Hawks will be out in force trying to prevent that from happening, because you know... Tyrannical Government and all that...

    But I think we all know they won't, and we all know why...

  19. #259
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    I was hoping our friends in the US would get through the lockdown without rioting and I am really sad to see this happening. We've had it easy and I wanted that for the rest of the world as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    It is bizarre that we've seen such disunity despite the bipartisan consensus that George Floyd was a victim of police brutality/malpractice. ...
    At least there's some move to charge the officer/s seriously. Thats a step forward from the 1990's at least when the Rodney King beating incident had an air of inevitability about the officers' acquittal, and the (probable) payback acquittal of OJ Simpson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    1. The attempts to shoehorn Floyd's death into liberal/leftist social narratives about race rather than treating it as a instance of state tyranny which threatens all Americans.
    To be fair the racist shoe fits the boot of state in aspects of the case and IIRC the stats back that up with black people over-represented as offenders and among groups more likely to offend (less education, more poverty etc) but also have a greater likelyhood to be arrested and prosecuted for the same acts as others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    2. The acts of violence, looting and destruction of property which are being encouraged and perpetrated by marauders and political radicals.
    If thats true anyone encouraging brigandage as a political act amounts to a traitor or an enemy agent. Trump was right to encourage governors to dominate the looters at least, thats got to be stopped dead.

    Any agitators in play have a large body of disgruntled citizens they can incite, and I suspect the majority of looters are self-motivated. They are poor usually black people left behind by capitalism and the liberal republic. That's a massive race problem.

    On top of that you've had the state/s shutting down the economy for the current plague, and its obviously borne fruit of civil unrest.

    On reflection maybe this was certain to happen: if it wasn't yet another cop executing a black guy on the street it'd be the ATF or FBI attacking a religious minority, there are plenty of people with sincerely held grievances against the US system as applied to them and many groups have been asked to sacrifice even more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    3. The vulturous attempts by the mainstream press and large corporations to hijack Floyd's death to serve their political and/or financial interests.
    ..and politicians. I mean they hijacked 9/11 all the way to Baghdad. Kennedy lied his way from a fake missile gap into Vietnam by way of Cuba and nearly kicked off WWII between starlets. This isn't anything new.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    4. The protesters' lack of direction or objectives.
    There's been clarity from the dead guy's family about peaceful protest. As reported in my country there are heaps of talking heads bemoaning the looting and some making small acts of reparation. The political response from the top down has been nuanced too, with Trump and the rest acknowledging the legitimate grievances and castigating the wrongdoing as well. I think there is some attempt on the part of the leaders in the community to talk the talk at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    5. The preference for emotional arguments rather than proposals based on statistical analyses.
    Well that's politicians for you. It is a real blight and I'm very proud the way my country has put aside some bad blood (there was a deal of corruption in the recent national elections) to work together "for the duration".

    The US system is pretty robust (I mean we have to stick together, our country isn't big enough or tough enough to give ourselves uppercuts for fun), and can withstand some selfishness from citizens and leaders, so some (too many) indulge themselves.

    However its a bad time with the economy in a shambles and a very real health threat. First step is to smash the looting, then take an honest look at race.
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  20. #260
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    4 and 5 are great places to expand the conversation, and they do actually cut quite closely to why some of these problems are difficult to solve.

    A lack of direction in protest is a symptom of their spontaneous nature following the trigger event (for most participants - less so for those taking advantage) it makes it seemingly impossible to respond to in a meaningful and constructive way without appearing to condone the protests. While it is difficult to respond in a positive manner to a nebulous and disorganised rabble, it is easy to respond poorly - to challenge protest with the threat of violence - which the protests are responding to in the first place.

    I'd say a sense of equality and justice are emotional issues for many, which explains why emotional arguments are weighted so highly. It is difficult to establish a statistical analysis of the subjective experience of injustice. Analogies pull heavily on our sense of empathy for the suffering of others. We find it difficult to empathise with those whom we don't understand or those who's life experience claims to have suffered unintentionally because of us.
    When you look at the stats, what you see is that the number of people (not just African Americans) involved in fatal interactions with the police is far higher in the US than it is in other comparable countries. That is the common problem which ought to be addressed. Focusing on the racial disparities - which are largely a consequence of social/economic/cultural factors rather than policing - marginalizes the broader picture and drags the conversation toward narrow, divisive identity narratives.

    Nevertheless, since politics and power are understood through the lens of race and racism, the racialization of Floyd's death was inevitable. That's just how people are conditioned to view society in the US, and it suits the incumbent elite (who've been building racial constituencies for decades) just fine. Even so, it still grinds my gears to see multi-billion dollar companies like Sony or Nike (the business which has long been accused of running Asian sweatshops) lecturing others on injustice and demanding that they recite slogans from Democratic Party approved organizations like BLM. The fact that these protests are being backed by corporate America should be an indication that they're more a part of an institutionalized social narrative than they are a genuine movement for change.

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