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Thread: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

  1. #1401
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Evidence for what? 90% of the protests are about Floyd. All you hear here in Europe is about Floyd. Most interviewed Americans cite Floyd. So some people use the Floyd Protests to remember someone else as well. That does not detract from the fact that the violent protests started based on a lie.
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  2. #1402
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    To clarify, in your learned, medical, political, and logical opinion, the presence of lethal levels of fentanyl, the presence of cocaine, and the presence of methamphetamine in the toxicology report contributed less to the cause of death than whatever the cop did.
    Another mean and inflammatory post, I think this discussion is attracting troll posts like flies to a corpse.

    To clarify, is it your legal view a cop kneeling on a cuffed guy's neck until he dies lawful? Not paying you a dime BTW.
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  3. #1403
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Yes, whether the police officer committed a particular crime is a matter for the court, not a forensic pathologist. What the evidence tells us, according to a forensic pathologist, is that while Geoge Floyd's heart problems and the drugs in his system made him more vulnerable, they weren't the cause of death.

    It's interesting to read that Floyd's body contained "lethal levels of fentanyl". I found a comment on this by Carl L. Hart, a professor of psychology and psychiatry, who wrote that:
    He also had 11 nanograms of fentanyl in his blood. That number, in and of itself, doesn’t tell us much. Immediately after a person dies, the blood concentration of fentanyl increases significantly, so knowing only the post-mortem amount does not tell us about Mr. Floyd’s level of intoxication before his death.

    What’s more, the same amount of fentanyl that produces euphoria in a tolerant user can result in an overdose in a newer user. That’s why, along with the toxicology report, we have to look at Mr. Floyd’s behavior shortly before his death.

    Videos show Mr. Floyd behaving rationally and appropriately, considering the circumstances. When officers asked him to get out of his car, he did not seem drowsy or lethargic, which is how people high on opioids behave.
    Also, the lethal dose of fantanyl is said to be 2 milligrams (Oxford Treatment Center). A unit converter says that 2 milligrams is equal to 2,000,000 nanograms - that's a lot more than 11. (Maybe someone read that he had 11ng of fentanyl in his blood and mistakenly thought that it said 11mg? That would be an understandable mistake, as ng looks similar to mg).
    Last edited by Alwyn; August 07, 2020 at 02:11 AM.

  4. #1404

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    To clarify, in your learned, medical, political, and logical opinion, the presence of lethal levels of fentanyl, the presence of cocaine, and the presence of methamphetamine in the toxicology report contributed less to the cause of death than whatever the cop did.
    No, in my honest opinion, having your knee 8 minutes 46 seconds to the neck of someone in distress is wrong. Talking about how intoxicated he was is merely an attempt to lessen the officer's offense.
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  5. #1405

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    Yes, whether the police officer committed a particular crime is a matter for the court, not a forensic pathologist. What the evidence tells us, according to a forensic pathologist, is that while Geoge Floyd's heart problems and the drugs in his system made him more vulnerable, they weren't the cause of death.

    It's interesting to read that Floyd's body contained "lethal levels of fentanyl". I found a comment on this by Carl L. Hart, a professor of psychology and psychiatry, who wrote that:
    He also had 11 nanograms of fentanyl in his blood. That number, in and of itself, doesn’t tell us much. Immediately after a person dies, the blood concentration of fentanyl increases significantly, so knowing only the post-mortem amount does not tell us about Mr. Floyd’s level of intoxication before his death.

    What’s more, the same amount of fentanyl that produces euphoria in a tolerant user can result in an overdose in a newer user. That’s why, along with the toxicology report, we have to look at Mr. Floyd’s behavior shortly before his death.

    Videos show Mr. Floyd behaving rationally and appropriately, considering the circumstances. When officers asked him to get out of his car, he did not seem drowsy or lethargic, which is how people high on opioids behave.
    Also, the lethal dose of fantanyl is said to be 2 milligrams (Oxford Treatment Center). A unit converter says that 2 milligrams is equal to 2,000,000 nanograms - that's a lot more than 11. (Maybe someone read that he had 11ng of fentanyl in his blood and mistakenly thought that it said 11mg? That would be an understandable mistake, as ng looks similar to mg).
    The autopsy reported 11 ng/mL, not 11 ng in total (which would be ridiculous). A quick search turns up this type of evidence:

    Postmortem levels of fentanyl confirmed for blood samples in our sample (N = 497) range widely from 0.75 to 113.00 ng/mL, with a mean of 9.96 ng/mL, s.d. = 9.27. To explore the possible impact of co-intoxicants, specified as any other opioid, any benzodiazepine, or alcohol, we analyzed the subsample of cases (n = 48) in which fentanyl was the only drug found. The range for that subsample is also wide, 2.70 to 36.00 ng/mL (mean = 10.52, s.d. = 7.51).
    Unintentional Fentanyl Overdoses in New Hampshire
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  6. #1406

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    Yes, whether the police officer committed a particular crime is a matter for the court, not a forensic pathologist.
    Hence why her opinion on that matter bears no particular value.

    What the evidence tells us, according to a forensic pathologist, is that while Geoge Floyd's heart problems and the drugs in his system made him more vulnerable, they weren't the cause of death.
    Based on the evidence we have seen so far, it is likely that Floyd's medical complications (heart disease, drug use, etc) were the proximate cause of his death. This will be relevant in determining whether the officers' use of force was justified.

    It's interesting to read that Floyd's body contained "lethal levels of fentanyl". I found a comment on this by Carl L. Hart, a professor of psychology and psychiatry, who wrote that:

    Also, the lethal dose of fantanyl is said to be 2 milligrams (Oxford Treatment Center). A unit converter says that 2 milligrams is equal to 2,000,000 nanograms - that's a lot more than 11. (Maybe someone read that he had 11ng of fentanyl in his blood and mistakenly thought that it said 11mg? That would be an understandable mistake, as ng looks similar to mg).
    The autopsy did not claim that George Floyd died of fentanyl intoxication, only that the substance was present in his system. This may explain - at least in part - Floyd's agitated behaviour (which Melinek denied) which was revealed by the body camera footage.

    The gait disturbance suggests that Floyd may have been under the influence of alcohol or some other drug that could affect his balance. The grimace as he is being handled suggests that the cuffs are on too tight or that he is in pain during this encounter as the officer pulls up on his cuffed arms. Here's what I don't see: I don't see someone who appears to be suffering from excited delirium when drugs of abuse can cause agitation, hyperthermia, and sudden death. Floyd is not naked or dressed inappropriately for the weather. He does not appear to be sweating profusely. He does not appear to be agitated or violent.
    Last edited by Cope; August 08, 2020 at 02:18 AM.



  7. #1407
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    A forensic pathologist's view on the cause of death has value, as I see it. Aexodus said that there were two autopsies, one reporting death due to cardiopulmonary arrest and one to asphyxiation. The forensic pathologist wrote that, either way, the police restraint caused Floyd's death.

    When you say that the heart condition and drug use were the "proximate cause" of death, would you like to say more about what you mean? Are you saying that he would have died when he did anyway (even if he hadn't been restrained), or that he would have suvived the police restraint if he didn't have medical complications, or something else?

    As far as I can see, you're right that the autopsy didn't say that he died solely from fentanyl. I was responding to Pontifex Maximus's statement that George Floyd had a "lethal" level of this when he died. Thanks to sumskilz, that's helpful (I wondered if I was missing something!). It seems unclear whether he had a lethal level (based on Carl L. Hart's comment that the level goes up significantly after death) - unless there's more evidence which I haven't heard about.

  8. #1408

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    A forensic pathologist's view on the cause of death has value, as I see it. Aexodus said that there were two autopsies, one reporting death due to cardiopulmonary arrest and one to asphyxiation. The forensic pathologist wrote that, either way, the police restraint caused Floyd's death.

    When you say that the heart condition and drug use were the "proximate cause" of death, would you like to say more about what you mean? Are you saying that he would have died when he did anyway (even if he hadn't been restrained), or that he would have suvived the police restraint if he didn't have medical complications, or something else?
    I mean to say that in all likelihood the primary cause of George Floyd's death was his underlying health issues and drug use rather than the conditions created by the police restraint (which Floyd had precipitated on account of his erratic behaviour). The claim that the physical interaction was the immediate cause of death (hence the ruling of homicide) does not imply police culpability.

    As far as I can see, you're right that the autopsy didn't say that he died solely from fentanyl. I was responding to Pontifex Maximus's statement that George Floyd had a "lethal" level of this when he died. Thanks to sumskilz, that's helpful (I wondered if I was missing something!). It seems unclear whether he had a lethal level (based on Carl L. Hart's comment that the level goes up significantly after death) - unless there's more evidence which I haven't heard about.
    It seems reasonable to suggest that Floyd's use of methamphetamine and opioids negatively influenced his interaction with the police and contributed to his cardiac arrest.



  9. #1409
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Evidence for what?
    The protests deal with more than just George Floyd's death. I've proven that rather well.

    90% of the protests are about Floyd. All you hear here in Europe is about Floyd. Most interviewed Americans cite Floyd. So some people use the Floyd Protests to remember someone else as well. That does not detract from the fact that the violent protests started based on a lie.
    . Provide a source citing 90% of all protests in the US and Europe being solely about George Floyd. I'll be waiting for the evidence.

  10. #1410
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    You haven't proven anything Vanoi. Isolated examples are not proof of a general rule. Most protesters started protesting because of the Floyd case. As I've said before, in Europe they're literally called the George Floyd protest. 90% of this thread is about George Floyd.

    Just became some random camgirl remembered that someone also died in Bumsville, West Hampton, does not change the nature of the protest.

    Moreover posting sites that simply repeat what you say without giving any justification other than "because I said so" is not evidence. It's appeal to authority, and that is a logical fallacy. I know the BLM fanbase loathes logic (and punctuality, and showering regularly is also white racism now, apparently) but that don't fly here. Ya dig, homie?



    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    The protests deal with more than just George Floyd's death. I've proven that rather well.


    . Provide a source citing 90% of all protests in the US and Europe being solely about George Floyd. I'll be waiting for the evidence.

    You're asking me to provide a source for the Floyd protests in a 1400 post thread about the Floyd protests. Are you for real? Also, appeal to authority again.


    Anyway, regardless of how much of the protests is about Floyd or not the fact remains that the manner of Floyd's death was a lie manufactured by BLM, which they later used to encourage civil disorder and property damage totaling tens of millions of dollars.


    @Ponti: You are a lawyer. How much jail time do you reckon a random person would get for inciting to violence and causing that amount of damage? 30 years?
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; August 07, 2020 at 10:16 AM.
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  11. #1411

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Portland мэр Komrade Wheeler, last seen declaring an eternal revolution against the vile federal Sturmabteilung violently and illegally occupying cities of the USSA, may have been subverted by those savage counter revolutionary forces.
    The noble and peaceful protesters of the glorious revolution had previously expressed concern that Komrade Wheeler might be a "f...ing fascist". The wisdom and foresight of the peaceful protesters in this is shown as мэр Komrade Wheeler is literally objecting to the caring nature shown by the peaceful protesters who have humanely, and at great danger to themselves, attempted to alleviate the suffering of even the enemies of the revolution by providing warmth and light and security to those selfsame enemies who have been isolated in a raging pandemic:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "PORTLAND, Ore. — Dr. Deborah Birx delivered a strong warning this week. On a private call to county and state officials, Dr. Birx named nine new US cities, including Portland, that may be considered hot spots for the virus."
    "PORTLAND, OR (KPTV) - Mayor Ted Wheeler had strong words for rioters who blocked exits and started a fire at the Portland Police Bureau’s East Precinct building.
    “When you commit arson with an accelerant in an attempt to burn down a building that is occupied by people who you have intentionally trapped inside, you are not demonstrating, you are attempting to commit murder,” Wheeler said during an online press conference Thursday.
    Doors were broken, projectiles and fireworks were thrown at officers and rioters disabled security cameras. Tear gas and crowd control munitions were used by police to disperse the crowd.
    “I believe that city staff could have died last night. I cannot and I will not tolerate that. This is not peaceful protests. This is not advocacy to advance reforms,” Wheeler said."

    Sources:
    https://katu.com/news/local/dr-debor...id-19-hot-spot
    https://www.kptv.com/news/mayor-whee...46b521476.html
    Last edited by Infidel144; August 07, 2020 at 04:30 PM.

  12. #1412

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    No, in my honest opinion, having your knee 8 minutes 46 seconds to the neck of someone in distress is wrong. Talking about how intoxicated he was is merely an attempt to lessen the officer's offense.
    So to be clear you're like "haha oh hell yeah science" until the science doesn't perpetuate your politics and then you're like "Oh that's fake science."

    True toxicology reports have never been achieved, amirite?

    The fact he was resisting arrest, had a more than lethal dose of drugs in his body, and was a felon with an extensive wrap sheet isn't enough for you to say he dindu nuffin and st. george was innocent. The only person who buys into that silly narrative is you and people like you who are hell bent on carrying water for the democrat party. Lame. I'd care more about your blatant lies and propoganda if I thought if more people would be deluded and misled by them

  13. #1413
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    A fatal level of distress? I’m sure he’s held down lots of suspects before who have had no problem. It’s likely the officer believed Floyd was going to start struggling again if he let go of him.

    Was it distress that killed him? How would anyone at the scene know that Floyd had a fatal level of distress, police or bystander?

    So... was that a yes? or a no? At risk of a straw man, I'm going to say you mean "no"? Either way, my sense of empathy probably would suggest that if I heard someone saying they can't breathe, I'd at least check on that. Officer or bystander.

    I'm attempting to find a point of commonality in the debate. If we can find common ground we might be able to actually progress the conversation rather than shout at each other for another 80 pages. Maybe you could try the same? Give me some yes/no questions to find our point of commonality.

    Of course you're being facetious, but you know by distress, I mean someone who is showing an extreme level of distress because they are dying, rather than that they are dying of distress.

    So let us back up further to find that common point... given that there was more than one officer involved - e.g. the support of other trained professionals, all of whom have been taught how to restrain a person safely, do you think there was any justification to kneel on the guy's neck for 8 minutes? (this speaks to training, rather than to the individual culpability of the officers involved).

    once again a yes, no question.
    Last edited by antaeus; August 07, 2020 at 09:35 PM.
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  14. #1414

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    I assume Aexodus either didn’t watch the video or was too excited while he did. If he had paid attention he would have heard one of the other cops asking if they should let Floyd breathe. Pretty certain proof it was obviously inappropriate to one officer.

    @Setra the protests are about anger fear hundreds of years of discrimination and other noble and less noble reasons. Thinking they are all about a George Floyd is silly. Was the Arab Spring all about a fruit vendor? WW1 the assassination of a royal? The US revolutionary war a tea tax?

    Newflash: The Trojan War wasn’t all about Helen. Letting these simplistic trash arguments stand on here is silly. It makes all of us less than we should be. At least in America our racists have the decency to say things loud and proud under Trump. Better an open racist and than a wimpy one hiding behind stupid stupid stupid arguments.

  15. #1415
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Cope said that, even if the restraint was the immediate cause, Floyd's heart condition and drug use were the primary cause of death. While the evidence suggests that his heart condition and drug use were a significant factor, I'm wondering how you get from "significant factor" to "primary cause".

    Pontifex Maximus said that Floyd had a "lethal" dose of drugs. The report which sumskilz found says that the level in his body was above the average for fatal overdoses. This suggests that he could have died because of fentanyl. However, the range was very wide - from 0.75 ng/mL to 113. The medical examiner was aware of the fentanyl - the autopsy report said that the drug was a significant factor - yet the medical examiner said in the autopsy report that the cause of death was:

    cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression
    The cause of death seems to be clearly indicated: a sudden loss of heart function which was linked to neck compression, rather than fentanyl.
    Last edited by Alwyn; August 08, 2020 at 01:32 AM.

  16. #1416

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Post 1311. No mea culpa. How common.

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Let’s focus on this. You repeatedly state I made a claim about Mayors not being responsible for police training first. I counter that you made the claim Mayors were responsible for police training first and I simply responded.

    Let’s both agree whoever is wrong about this timeline of events will admit their fault.


    If it’s me who is wrong about the timeline I will immediately admit my fault because that is who I am.

    Who are you?

  17. #1417

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    Cope said that, even if the restraint was the immediate cause, Floyd's heart condition and drug use were the primary cause of death. While the evidence suggests that his heart condition and drug use were a significant factor, I'm wondering how you get from "significant factor" to "primary cause".
    George Floyd's preexisting conditions and substance abuse made him a high risk candidate for a serious cardiopulmonary incident (eg. cardiac arrest). The autopsy revealed that he was suffering from severe arteriosclerotic heart disease, hypertensive heart disease and Covid 19. It also indicated that he was abusing methamphetamine and fentanyl. Given that the report found no evidence of traumatic asphyxiation or strangulation, the most reasonable explanation is that Floyd's preexisting conditions combined with his drug abuse were the proximate cause of his cardiac arrest. His interaction with the police was the trigger (ie immediate cause).

    Pontifex Maximus said that Floyd had a "lethal" dose of drugs. The report which sumskilz found says that the level in his body was above the average for fatal overdoses. This suggests that he could have died because of fentanyl. However, the range was very wide - from 0.75 ng/mL to 113. The medical examiner was aware of the fentanyl - the autopsy report said that the drug was a significant factor - yet the medical examiner said in the autopsy report that the cause of death was:

    The cause of death seems to be clearly indicated: neck compression, not fentanyl.
    Neck compression is noted in the case title as a complicating factor, not an independent cause.
    Last edited by Cope; August 25, 2020 at 11:23 PM.



  18. #1418
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    George Floyd's preexisting conditions and substance abuse made him a high risk candidate for a serious cardiopulmonary incident (eg. cardiac arrest). The autopsy revealed that he was suffering from severe arteriosclerotic heart disease, hypertensive heart disease and Covid 19. It also indicated that he was abusing methamphetamine and fentanyl. Given that the report found no evidence of asphyxiation or strangulation, the most reasonable explanation is that Floyd's preexisting conditions combined with his drug abuse were the proximate cause of his cardiac arrest. His interaction with the police was the trigger (ie immediate cause).
    I can see your point that a lot of people were saying that he died from strangulation (an understandable mistake, when he died after someone kneeled on his neck and he said that he couldn't breath), but that doesn't seem to be the case. He seems to have died because the restraint caused a sudden loss of heart function - which was linked in the autopsy report to the police restraint.

    cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression
    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Neck compression is noted in the case title as a complicating factor, not an independent cause.
    Wasn't it the other way around? Am I missing something, or did the autopsy say that that the sudden loss of heart function complicated the neck compression?

  19. #1419

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    I can see your point that a lot of people were saying that he died from strangulation (an understandable mistake, when he died after someone kneeled on his neck and he said that he couldn't breath), but that doesn't seem to be the case. He seems to have died because the restraint caused a sudden loss of heart function - which was linked in the autopsy report to the police restraint.
    Floyd was physiologically compromised by his preexisting conditions and drug abuse. This - and not excessive police force - is the most likely explanation for why the conditions of his interaction with law enforcement (including the restraint) caused his heart to fail. Equally, Floyd's use of methamphetamine is a probable explanation for his irrational, physically resistant behaviour which caused the police to subdue him in the first place.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Wasn't it the other way around? Am I missing something, or did the autopsy say that that the sudden loss of heart function complicated the neck compression?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    This is the case title. It notes the existence of neck compression without citing it as independent cause (ie. the cardiopulmanary incident occurred while the neck was compressed).



  20. #1420
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Why are we even discussing it. 1) Kneeling on someone's neck isn't exactly by the police book 2) the guy doing it had killed before with impunity 3) he stayed on that victims neck long after that person had stopped moving (never mind the 8 times!!! he was told by George that he couldn't breathe) and 4) neither he nor any of his colleagues made any attempt whatsoever to revive the victim.

    If any of you suggest that drug use, intoxitation or previous criminal history should allow a police officer to do this, then wow.

    George being in a higher risk category does not mean the cop should have used such a restraint that's so risky in the first place.

    You do not expect these kinds of incidents to take place in a civilised country.

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