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Thread: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Most of these points are either misleading or outright wrong. Protests have not been found to contribute to the propagation of the virus, presumably because they occur outdoors, while the participants show individual responsibility, in stark contrast to several of Donald Trump's rallies.
    Why are outdoor gatherings banned in many countries, such as my own, and Canada, America's neighbour.
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Most of these points are either misleading or outright wrong. Protests have not been found to contribute to the propagation of the virus, presumably because they occur outdoors, while the participants show individual responsibility, in stark contrast to several of Donald Trump's rallies. Biden has repeatedly condemned the violence of the protests. Given that he has no executive power yet, condemning them on numerous occassions seems as a "substantive'' as possible. Moreover, during the debate, Biden quoted the FBI director, who identified the Antifa as a movement or an idea. Since the Antifa movement is indeed an ideological movement, principally founded upon its opposition on fascism and its various offshoots, and not an organisation with an established hierarchy and official charter, the aforementioned statement of the FBI director is accurate. I don't even understand why that objective observations triggers the far right so profoundly. Ideas and movements are neither inherently positive nor immune to cricitism. As for California, the general lockdown actually ended one month before George Floyd was killed.

    The part about CNN is also false. CNN actually reported that the protests were peaceful until night, when the situation derailed and violence/fire broke out. That specific example also reflects the general trend, where protests remain largely peaceful, despite the frequent unprovoked outbreaks of police violence against civilians lawfully excercising their constitutional rights. Finally, the last sentence is just a personal interpretation, which doesn't appear particularly convincing, judging from how fundamentally untrue its foundations were. Keep also in mind that these inaccurate arguments had already been disproven numerous times in the very same thread, but they mysteriously keep being repeated, thus unnecessarily polarising the American society and undermining its unity and cohesion during an exceptionally precarious period. I took special care to use conservative-leaning sources (Forbes, Washington Post etc.), which cannot be (easily) accused of being controlled by liberal elites and the Bolshevik infiltrators Bezhmenov wisely warned us about.
    Some remarks:


    • Health professionals advised – and continue to advise - that large congregations of strangers in close proximity (e.g. protests) increase the risk of C19 transmission. Avoiding crowds is among Anthony Fauci’s top five recommendations for curbing C19 spikes. Notwithstanding, and even were it true that the BLM demonstrations did not contribute to the avoidable spread of C19 (unlikely if expert advice on transmission is to be believed), that was not known by senior liberals at the time - most of whom supported stringent preventative measures. Exceptions were made for BLM for ideological and electoral, not legitimate medical, reasons. For instance, the demonstrations were originally excused on the basis of the false claim that systemic racism was, in and of itself, a comparable health crisis to C19.









    • Whether Antifa is a centralized organization is irrelevant; Biden's claim that the movement is an "idea" is false (as he should now be aware considering that the group allegedly vandalized a Democratic campaign office after his election). More importantly, self-identifying Antifa activists and other militant leftists were connected with violent activity during the demonstrations. This included the murder of a Trump supporter in Portland. Other related incidents, many of which were precipitated by the actions of Democratic politicians and liberal rhetoric, have been extensively outlined in this thread.



    • CNN’s “fiery but mostly peaceful” comment was symbolic of the network’s consistent apologia for the disorder, which was the costliest in US history (the misleading language of "mostly peaceful" protests was used commonly by liberal outlets). It was only in late August when the rioting started damaging Biden’s presidential polling (as Omar Wasow’s research argued it eventually would), that they reversed their narrative.
    Last edited by Cope; November 30, 2020 at 11:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    1. They increase the risk, but are not responsible for the spikes, unlike indoor rallies and if the experts on transmission I cited above are to be believed.

    2. Completely irrelevant to the discussion. Hillary Clinton called them domestic terrorists, because they stormed the Capitol while armed. It says so in the second sentence of the article you linked.

    3. Completely irrelevant to both Biden and protest violence. Including the third case, where the pardon did not concern those responsible for theft, force, deliberate property damage and threat of force.

    4. Antifa not being an organisation is irrelevant to Biden explaining why it's not an organisation? I don't understand your logic. By the way, you again falsely alleged that it was Biden that claimed the Antifa are an idea and you still haven't demonstrated why the Antifa are not an idea, as the FBI director himself explained. I'm pretty sure that vandalism and murder for ideological reasons is not that extraordinary.

    5. Costly or not, it was still mostly peaceful, despite the counter-factual narrative suggesting otherwise. For further reading, you can consult the statistical data of ACLED. It illustrates the subversive role of far-right activists and also explains why the unprovoked violence exhibited by the law enforcement corps contributed to adding fuel to the fire.

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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    How can an increased risk not be responsible for a spike? If the disease is contracted more easily any increase in number of cases is a direct result of that.
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    It’s ironic to suggest, as the ACLED study’s authors do, that the concern about violence and decline in public support for BLM is the result of biased media coverage, given their data is collected from media and journalistic reports:
    What types of sources does ACLED use?
    ACLED uses four types of sources. Every week ACLED researchers assess thousands of sources in multiple languages to provide the most comprehensive database on political violence and demonstrations. All types are reviewed each week. These include:
    1. Traditional media​. This includes all subnational, national, regional, and international media outlets that are governed by journalistic principles of verification.
    2. Reports​. International institutions and non-governmental organizations – such as aid groups, human rights organizations, and investigative journalist groups – regularly publish reports on political violence. Where applicable, ACLED incorporates events from these reports. Under certain conditions, reports from groups involved in the conflict themselves are also included (Ministry of Defenses, armed groups, NATO, etc.).
    3. Local Partner Data. ​The past decades have seen an increase in conflict observatories established at the local level as both social activism and the ability to report political violence have increased. These organizations leverage their local knowledge as they collect and obtain information through primary and/or secondary means. ACLED develops relationships with local partners to enhance the depth and quality of its data.
    4. New Media (targeted and verified). ‘​New media’ (e.g. Twitter, Telegram, WhatsApp) can be a powerful supplemental source, but varies widely in terms of quality. Therefore, ​ACLED does not crowdsource or scrape large amounts of social media. Rather, a targeted approach to the inclusion of new media is preferred through either the establishment of relationships with the source directly, or the verification of the quality of each source.

    https://www.acleddata.com/wp-content...ethodology.pdf
    In any event, it’s is hardly a partisan stretch to say that 7% violent protests is quite alot, given the national crisis presented by blacks who had contact with police in the last year experiencing physical force by police during that time, representing 3% of total police interactions, of which the fatal use of force is some even smaller percentage.

    https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpp15.pdf

    I understand people may find 97% peaceful police interactions contradictory to their narrative, but that doesn’t give them the right to seek refuge in emotional appeals about what BLM calls “the rampant and deliberate violence inflicted on us by the state.”

    https://web.archive.org/web/20200917...at-we-believe/

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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    1. They increase the risk, but are not responsible for the spikes, unlike indoor rallies and if the experts on transmission I cited above are to be believed.
    It was not claimed that the protests were responsible for spikes; it was claimed that senior liberals ignored the increased threat of C19 transmission in order to indulge the BLM protests. This was despite often supporting stringent preventative measures elsewhere.

    2. Completely irrelevant to the discussion. Hillary Clinton called them domestic terrorists, because they stormed the Capitol while armed. It says so in the second sentence of the article you linked.
    The purpose of introducing Clinton’s false allegation was to substantiate the claim that leading Democratic figures had furiously denounced conservative activism in Michigan. It was also to juxtapose the liberal reaction to lawful, comparatively small, conservative assemblies with sprawling, often violent BLM demonstrations.

    Whitmer herself participated in protest events which increased the risk of C19 transmissions, despite having denounced demonstrators against her unconstitutional emergency powers grab for putting public health at risk.

    3. Completely irrelevant to both Biden and protest violence. Including the third case, where the pardon did not concern those responsible for theft, force, deliberate property damage and threat of force.
    This was the original statement which was falsely implied to be either misleading or untrue:

    Neither Joe Biden, nor any other senior Democrat, nor any major liberal news outlet made any substantive attempt to moderate the lunacy being abetted by Democratic politicians in Seattle, Portland or New York.
    It is a statement of fact that Biden made no substantive attempt to intercede to prevent or moderate the implementation of radical policies (some listed above) which emerged in response to the demonstrations. Moreover, it was never claimed that such policies necessarily directly abetted “protest violence”, although Durkin’s autonomous zone almost certainly did.

    4. Antifa not being an organisation is irrelevant to Biden explaining why it's not an organisation? I don't understand your logic. By the way, you again falsely alleged that it was Biden that claimed the Antifa are an idea and you still haven't demonstrated why the Antifa are not an idea, as the FBI director himself explained. I'm pretty sure that vandalism and murder for ideological reasons is not that extraordinary.
    Antifa’s decentralized nature does not justify Biden’s false claim that the movement is “an idea”. That he borrowed this falsehood from Christopher Wray is irrelevant to the statement’s veracity.

    Substantial evidence has been provided to indicate that Antifa is a loosely affiliated far-left movement (i.e. of people) which includes militant activists, some of whom were connected to acts of serious criminality (including murder) during the BLM protests.

    Notwithstanding, your own language gives the game away: note how your use of the plural verb “are” when mentioning Antifa, implies a group, rather than a singular entity (e.g. an idea). Antifascism is an idea; Antifa is a group.

    5. Costly or not, it was still mostly peaceful, despite the counter-factual narrative suggesting otherwise. For further reading, you can consult the statistical data of ACLED. It illustrates the subversive role of far-right activists and also explains why the unprovoked violence exhibited by the law enforcement corps contributed to adding fuel to the fire.
    No such “counter-factual narrative” was mentioned in the comments to which you are responding, nor was it denied that far-right agitators had an interest in, and actively encouraged, the disorder.

    The “mostly peaceful” messaging was intended to mask the reality that the Floyd demonstrations were, by the standards usual protests, remarkably destructive (see Legio’s post). As per the Wasow research, the liberal press knew that negative coverage of the protests, even if consistent with the truth, would conservatize the populace.
    Last edited by Cope; November 30, 2020 at 03:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Antifa’s decentralized nature does not justify Biden’s false claim that the movement is “an idea”. That he borrowed this falsehood from Christopher Wray is irrelevant to the statement’s veracity.
    How is the FBI director's assertion that Antifa is a movement or idea more than an organization false? There's no single Antifa organization in the US. its a myriad of leftist groups.

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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    What groups?
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    What groups?
    No idea. I am unaware of any prominent leftist groups or Antifia groups in the US.

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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    I’ll enlighten you since you don’t believe your own claims.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_City_Antifa

    Rose City Antifa based in Portland. Founded in 2007 and first to adopt the antifa name in America. An openly violent group of thugs, they are one of nine chapters that make up the Torch City coalition.

    From their .org website... not an organisation eh

    https://rosecityantifa.org/articles/...une-4th-rally/
    Having reviewed the successes and failures across the country in addressing similar events, our view is that an indiscriminate approach attacking their entire event would not be strategic and plays into their hands in several important ways.
    We are unapologetic about the reality that fighting fascism at points requires physical militancy.
    They view property destruction as a legitimate tactic.

    While we are not opposed to the tactic of property destruction, we would encourage other individuals and groups to seriously consider the strategic value of their chosen actions at this event. The climate in Portland and across the country right now is such that extremely heavy charges are being handed out for acts of vandalism that have little impact beyond the symbolic.

    We are by no means against people risking arrest in order to fight for justice, but as witnessed at May Day 2017, the Portland Police and District Attorney are more eager than ever to hand out these charges, and to enact violence against members of our community. While sometimes it is unavoidable to confront the state in order to achieve important goals, these decisions should be carefully thought out in terms of costs and benefits.
    We agree not to assist law enforcement actions against activists and others.
    No snitching.

    Torch City emerged from Anti-Racist Action, an anarchist group involved in multiple violent criminal acts.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Racist_Action

    During the time that Barack Obama was President of the United States, groups on the hard right began to grow and consequently groups emerged to engage in violence with them. Some of these were officially outside the Anti-Racist Action network, such as NYC Antifa (founded in 2010), but others, such as the Hoosier Anti-Racist Movement (HARM), also known as Indiana Antifa (2011), were officially chapters of ARA.[61] HARM were involved in a significant criminal incident in Tinley Park, Cook County, Illinois on May 19, 2012, when a group of 18 ARA members with hoods and masks on, carrying hammers and baseball bats, broke into the Ashford House restaurant where members of the Illinois European Heritage Association,affiliated with White News Now and Stormfront (including individuals associated with the Council of Conservative Citizens)[61] were having a meal, and began attacking them with weapons.[62][63][64]

    An 80-year-old woman at a nearby table was pushed to the floor.
    [63] Five of the ARA members involved were arrested and subsequently charged for their part in the attack with felony mob action, aggravated battery and criminal property damage charges and were sentenced from between 3 ½ to 6 years: Jason Sutherlin, Cody Sutherlin, Dylan Sutherlin, Alex Stuck and John Tucker.[62][65]
    An incident in Washington DC:

    However, 28 ARA members were arrested and then when they returned to Baltimore, were subsequently called up on charges of rioting, aggravated assault, possession of a deadly weapon and others.
    Oh and the Torch Network itself:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torch_Network
    Antifa Sacramento members were among hundreds of ant-fascists who attacked a rally held by the Traditionalist Worker Party, a neo-Nazi group, in the 2016 Sacramento riot, in which between five and seven people were stabbed and three hospitalised.[13][14] The California Highway Patrol stated that counter-protestors were the instigating party in the confrontation.[14]
    The Torch Network have their own .org website too. I recommend everyone takes a look.

    https://torchantifa.org/
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I’ll enlighten you since you don’t believe your own claims.
    My claim is just fine. Just because i didn't name any specific groups does not detract from it.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_City_Antifa

    Rose City Antifa based in Portland. Founded in 2007 and first to adopt the antifa name in America. An openly violent group of thugs, they are one of nine chapters that make up the Torch City coalition.

    From their .org website... not an organisation eh

    https://rosecityantifa.org/articles/...une-4th-rally/



    They view property destruction as a legitimate tactic.





    No snitching.

    Torch City emerged from Anti-Racist Action, an anarchist group involved in multiple violent criminal acts.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Racist_Action



    An incident in Washington DC:



    Oh and the Torch Network itself:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torch_Network


    The Torch Network have their own .org website too. I recommend everyone takes a look.

    https://torchantifa.org/
    Thats it? Seems like a fairly small network of groups. You are doing a great job of proving my own point. That Antifia is more a movement and idea than a singular organization.

  12. #2312

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Racist newspaper calls reparations "violent":

    'Staggering' surge in violent carjackings continues across Minneapolis
    Such attacks were up 537% compared with last November, worrying residents.
    https://www.startribune.com/staggeri...ide/573257391/

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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Racist newspaper calls reparations "violent":
    Link? What reparations? Relevance for this thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    'Staggering' surge in violent carjackings continues across Minneapolis
    Such attacks were up 537% compared with last November, worrying residents.
    https://www.startribune.com/staggeri...ide/573257391/
    Relevance for this thread?
    Last edited by Gigantus; December 03, 2020 at 08:08 AM.




  14. #2314

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    Link? What reparations? Relevance for this thread?
    Try reading some prior posts of mine. Maybe you will get it.
    Topicality? Relevance for this thread?
    Defund the police.

  15. #2315
    Gigantus's Avatar I am thinking more about running away now then I did as a kid, but by the time I put my teeth in, my glasses on and find my car keys I forget why I am going.
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Not in the habit of hunting for supporting information concerning minimalist headline comments. The least I should be able to expect is a link to that article you refer to. Taking care of the first question mark resolves the last two question marks.
    Simply provide the link that you wanted to add after the colon.

    Can I post a couple of crime incident related articles as well for good measure? Got a good pick here for Minneapolis, unlike your link a good number of those articles provide a connection between the police situation and the increase in crime.
    Last edited by Gigantus; December 03, 2020 at 08:49 AM.




  16. #2316
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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    The relevance to this thread is chiefly in the following paragraphs:

    The spree comes amid a nearly unprecedented spike in violent crime, particularly shootings, since the May 25 killing of George Floyd in police custody and the civil unrest that followed.

    In November, the toll of people shot this year surpassed 500 in Minneapolis, the most in 15 years. Seventy-nine homicides is the highest count since the mid-1990s, an era when the city earned the grim moniker “Murderapolis.”
    The information is also relevant in the context of prior city council proposals to disband the MPD, (another radical plan which was unopposed by national leadership) followed by proposals to defund the department. Police funding was also cut in Portland, despite extensive rioting there, and is set to be "slashed" in Seattle, the location of the infamous autonomous zone. These reactionary proposals and policies (and many more) all came in the wake of George Floyd's death.
    Last edited by Cope; December 03, 2020 at 12:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Right, guess I need to accept that any article that simply references 'since Floyd' is on topic.

    Appreciate the flurry of background info links. Looks like another 'Repeal and replace' initiative that has a good chance to get stuck after repeal. It might be a bit difficult to get the serious criminals to play ball, too. Guess this quote from the second link puts it in a nutshell:

    "“There’s a lot of interest in building new safety nets, but maybe we shouldn’t take away the old one until the new ones are fully in place,” Palmisano said."

    MAYBE? Seriously?




  18. #2318

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    Not in the habit of hunting for supporting information concerning minimalist headline comments. The least I should be able to expect is a link to that article you refer to.
    I linked to the article I referred to.
    The link was beneath the headline and lede I posted from the StarTiribune article.

    Taking care of the first question mark resolves the last two question marks.
    Simply provide the link that you wanted to add after the colon.
    I provided the link I wanted to provide.

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    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Kim Gardner, the St Louis Circuit Attorney, has been dismissed from case the against Mark McCloskey for having politicized the charges against him. This follows an allegation that investigators deliberately reassembled Patricia McCloskey's firearm so as to make it operable in order to indict her.

    O'FALLON, Mo. -- A judge on Thursday disqualified the St. Louis prosecutor and her office from the case involving Mark McCloskey, who along with his wife pointed guns at racial injustice protesters marching on the private street near their home in June.


    Circuit Judge Thomas Clark II dismissed Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner, citing two campaign fundraising emails around the time she filed felony gun charges against the couple in July.


    “In short, the Circuit Attorney’s conduct raises the appearance that she initiated a criminal prosecution for political purposes,” Clark wrote.

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...-case-74660377

  20. #2320

    Default Re: Death of George Floyd and Subsequent Riots.

    Dismissing Gardner is systemically racist.

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