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Thread: #JUSTICETOMADORC

  1. #1
    Cookiegod's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default #JUSTICETOMADORC

    Hi there.
    2 clarifications to start of with:
    1) I know the title is somewhat humorous, but this proposal is serious.
    2) I have been making fun of the curia a lot, but that doesn’t mean I necessarily dislike it. I do understand and accept that it had an important function in the past, when the numbers of users were extreme, to enable the most significant contributors to have a say in the site administration, rather than just the loudest. I also accept that with institutional inertia and what not, it’s a tradition that has stuck around, and traditions are nice. Not everything needs to have a function.

    With that in mind, I do think the curia has a negative effect on the site. It’s not solely responsible for the demise, but I do think that it’s not making it any better.
    For one, the looks of it do already create an issue. Most new users will, once he realises there’s a special club on the site, first feel one thing: Aversion. And when the user is still new and thus needs to be sold on why he should stay on (or rather return to) this site, this impression can be the tipping point in his subconscious decision to go elsewhere.
    But that part isn’t particularly critical. For one, we don’t get many new users, and secondly, they’ll more likely be driven away by issues such as the clutter, the weird layout, the very bad loading times, and the lack of a selling proposition.
    So let’s ignore that part and focus on problem number two:
    The fact that it can drive active members away. Which brings us back to the title.
    Madorc, for those of you who do not know, was/is a member, who tried to become a citizen, but was rejected. As a result, he left.
    Sure, his contributions up to that point might not have been significant, but he did have a heart of gold. And all he wanted was to belong.

    So here’s what I propose:
    1: If you want/need to, keep the minimum requirements, such as the time requirement of being a user and a minimum post count.
    2: But when a user fulfils them, and requests to become a citizen: Just say yes.
    3: Handle all signs of appreciation for contributions, etc. through medals. A VIP PREMIUM membership is not conducive to the TWC's operations in these trying times.

    I haven’t experienced this “in-group” thing where people need to apply to become part of it in my real life since preschool. I know that this tribal thing is more common in the colonies. I feel it’s childish, at least in the context that the curia exists in today, but that part doesn’t matter. What does matter, however, is where it actively harms the site. I cannot give a specific number as to how many people are driven away by this. But I know that madorc definitely isn’t the only one, and even one soul lost is one too many. Finally, in order to avoid any impression of me having selfish interests, we can change the wording to: “Everyone but Cookie can become a citizen”. I have a much better time at rousing the rabble when I’m part of it anyway.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; May 29, 2020 at 04:32 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  2. #2
    Flinn's Avatar The power of the Dark Side is unlimited! (cash)
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    If there was one thing the Curia did well, was driving madorc away, IMO

    to be fair in this discussion: I'm not going to discuss about him, but if you pick him as an example of where the Curia does wrong, then you have really completely misunderstood what the Curia actually is meant to be
    Last edited by Flinn; May 29, 2020 at 04:51 AM.
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  3. #3
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    First, you're not oblige to write the title in capital letters. We're all able to read it without them.

    2nd, what Flinn said.
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  4. #4
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    I haven’t experienced this “in-group” thing where people need to apply to become part of it in my real life since preschool
    What about work, college, social clubs, etc?

    Anyway, I completely disagree with the post. It sucks when someone leaves, but it's not fair to see this an elitist club. I've personally offered to patronize you a dozen times as soon as you were willing to put together a serious application. There is nothing stopping someone who is dedicated to the community from achieving the goal of citizenship. When I first joined the site citizenship was one of the coolest aspects of it to me, and removing that would I think permanently harm the site.

    As for madorc, he did belong. He was a regular in the Thema Devia and in the Writers Study. This whole "one lost soul" thing is nonsense too, since you haven't considered the amount of people who are attracted to the site for citizenship and it's features.

    I think this thread might be better suited in the TD?

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  5. #5
    Cookiegod's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    What about work, college, social clubs, etc?
    Those have selling points. Our forum does not. You cannot compare it to anything in real life than, you know, social gatherings. Apart from that work and college require proof that you are suited for the task. The curia currently has no task.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    I've personally offered to patronize you a dozen times as soon as you were willing to put together a serious application.
    This is one of the rare posts of mine where it's not about me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    There is nothing stopping someone who is dedicated to the community from achieving the goal of citizenship. When I first joined the site citizenship was one of the coolest aspects of it to me, and removing that would I think permanently harm the site.

    As for madorc, he did belong. He was a regular in the Thema Devia and in the Writers Study. This whole "one lost soul" thing is nonsense too, since you haven't considered the amount of people who are attracted to the site for citizenship and it's features.
    I'm not arguing disbanding the citizenship. My argument was exactly that it should change it's admission to people being accepted if they fulfill some minimum requirements and ask for it. Not requiring them to subject themselves to a popularity trial. Nothing that I just said would stop the curia from existing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  6. #6
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    Mad Orc is probably the best argument against your idea. The original application thread sufficiently highlights that, I think.
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  7. #7
    Cookiegod's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Mad Orc is probably the best argument against your idea. The original application thread sufficiently highlights that, I think.
    madorc is just an example though. It's not like the curia really only has the elite amongst themselves.
    To quote GED:
    Citizens should be the perfect solution to having a limited amount of people you can trust to post on the front end, but they are not. It was a Citizen who posted about how much he liked to jerk off that got us our first AdSense warning. It was a Citizen who posted a picture of a woman in lingerie that got us our third AdSsense warning and kicked off of AdSense. Citizens like Miraj and Shyam posted porn, Shyam was even allowed back in the Curia a short time later. It was Citizens that went after Pontifex in the most personal way possible. Citizens like Ferrets who posted his F-pig picture, repeatedly posted the Giggs stuff against the direct order not to (remember Twitter got sued), and is generally nasty to people (remember the super jew comments?) he disagrees with.
    The curia currently has no function. The relevant forums have been made public. The real important decisions afaik are made by the hex (at least they have veto rights), or more precisely, by no one at all.
    The curia really is just a club. And once again I'm not saying that it has to be disbanded. Nor does it have to have zero standards. Just formalise the minimum requirements, and let everyone in who fulfills them.

    It's easy, it avoids all future drama, and might have the positive side effect that by doing that you'd actually rediscover what the point of that club is (though I genuinely have no idea what that would be).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  8. #8
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    The point is that mad orc is an example why we should exactly not do the thing you suggest as under that regime he would have gotten in.
    Last edited by Iskar; May 29, 2020 at 06:25 AM.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi

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  9. #9
    Flinn's Avatar The power of the Dark Side is unlimited! (cash)
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    really, using mad orc as a example is not going to work, drop him

    look, citizenship doesn't have that high standards and they have been fluctuating during the years (especially with regards to the quantity of contributions), but still there are some points which have always been a "no go", when it comes to citizenship applications

    1. generally unfriendly, aggressive and/or disruptive behavior; even if one "changes", it will take a lot of time for a usual troublemaker to be seen as kind and educated enough to become a citizen
    2. general harassing behavior, being excessively pushing the others, especially the Staff.. patience is a virtue much appreciated in the Curia
    3. disrespect in the application.. as much as we all have different opinions on what the Curia should be, we all respect its general "role" as an institution within TWC.. writing a proper application, even if in funny form, it's a sign of respect to those who have to read and evaluate it
    Last edited by Flinn; May 29, 2020 at 07:08 AM.
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    I'm confused by the post.

    What does becoming a citizen have to do with staying on the forum? As a long term member here I never felt the presence of Curia and citizens until the applications and political schemes were brought into TD discord, with the impression that many of our new citizens have nothing better to do than advancing their ranks and personal influence which is hardly relevant to main site contents (= mods) or anything at all.

    Can't we just have a dictator or AI moderators?

  11. #11
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    I'm all for robocracy.

    Unfortunately there are still humans left on the site, so we'll have to wait with the borg takeover.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi

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  12. #12
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    The sooner we can replace all of the members with robots the better, I say.

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  13. #13
    Flinn's Avatar The power of the Dark Side is unlimited! (cash)
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    I'm ready for that as well

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
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  14. #14

    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    I don't know the mad orc story and at this point I'm too afraid to ask

  15. #15
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Madorc, for those of you who do not know, was/is a member, who tried to become a citizen, but was rejected. As a result, he left.
    If what General Brewster posted here is accurate then the Curia did the right thing to reject mad orc's application.

    Because if the Curia had accepted mad orc and the original author found out what mad orc did then the original author can file a lawsuit against GED since he has a legal responsibility as a site owner.

    Also, what reason mad orc had for leaving TWC is personal and only hex may know why.

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  16. #16
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    That might not be true since most of modding materials' are derived from original game contents and the copyright claim is rather weak.

  17. #17
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    That might not be true since most of modding materials' are derived from original game contents and the copyright claim is rather weak.
    I am not talking about modding content, instead what I mean is what mad orc said.

    Quote Originally Posted by mad orc View Post
    About the claims of plagiarism.
    First of all the concerned story is terminated .
    Secondly I took that paragraph from wikipedia and not from a book.
    Thirdly I didn't know the rule about plagiarism then.

    And fourth and most important I don't realise why one paragraph from wikipedia equals plagiarism and such a serious response from you.

    I admit that I failed to mention the origin of the paragraph but then that is the reason why I closed that story.
    In subsequent writings I have mentioned sources accordingly.

    Lastly
    Making unsupported claims about my being an alt account would have been a crime in the outside world.
    But since we are here on TWC I will laugh it off as a mere joke.
    HAHAHA
    What I bolded is not a valid excuse.


    Also, he admitted to copy existing material from wikipedia and doing that should have a link back to the original source, just what Alwyn did. That is something GED can be sued for since he own TWC.

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    Last edited by Leonardo; May 29, 2020 at 04:28 PM.
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  18. #18
    Hitai de Bodemloze's Avatar 避世絕俗
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    Well, Flinn is bang on the money when it comes to madorc, so let's leave it at that.

    As for the proposal at hand, which essentially boils down to: 'should we have a codified requirement to attain citizenship and do away with voting?', no, that's probably not a great idea. I believe it's been touted before, but the issue is the ways in which people can earn (and have earned) their citizenship are incredibly varied, and it rewards a wide range of contributions - often contributions that aren't or cannot be serviced by the other medals we currently use. It's something that is difficult to quantify and put an exact requirement on, because we're all individuals, and each citizen's citizenship is itself individual, which is what makes it such a special award for so many people - one could argue it's probably the most personal award we give out on this site, which is worth a lot in my book. If you just want to tie citizenship to post count and/or length of time active on the forum, citizenship itself loses something in the process. By all means, if you want to discuss what rewards people could attain for reaching x amount of posts etc, I'm all ears; whilst some might argue it encourages spamming, I personally think it's a neat way of rewarding active users, and I'm always happy to see and discuss such proposals.

  19. #19

    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    That is something GED can be sued for since he own TWC.

  20. #20
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: #JUSTICETOMADORC

    Yeah I don't think that's how the law works

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