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Thread: How could a heaven operate?

  1. #101
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Again, please LINK me to where I can read it or find a source on the text contained within. The only things I can find searching for "The Hilprecht Tablet CBM 13532" are things disproving it's validity and pointing out that Hilprecht intentionally mistranslated things to present a biblical narrative. So, again, please find me a link to where I can read the text of the tablet or an unbiased source detailing what is on the tablet.

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  2. #102
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Akar,

    The big problem is that there are no unbiased accounts. One either accepts Hilprecht's interpretation or one seeks to not accept it. You see Hilprecht's version is completely in line with the Genesis version of the flood which makes the Gilgamesh version not only beaten in time as well as authenticity, meaning that unbelieving people will never want it to be true and therefore try to make it appear as a mistranslation. My own information about it came from the Creation Science Movement Pamphlet 382 by Bill Cooper PhD ThD. That makes me biased right away I hear you saying, but then you'ld only be interested in those that want to prove it wrong, a case for making the Bible look silly.

  3. #103
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    The big problem is that there are no unbiased accounts.
    This is false. You can translate the words directly as they were, rather than intentionally mistranslating or misrepresenting phrases to conform to your previously held beliefs.

    I would like you to provide me with the plain text of Hilprecht's translation.

    Creation Science Movement
    This is obviously biased, just as if I linked text from a website called "Disproving Christianity". That's why it's important to choose a source that presents the evidence as it is, without offering opinion on it.

    I am interested in the ing plain text of what the tablet says, not someone's take on it or how it fits in with biblical apologetics. I want the ing text of the tablet, if you can't provide it just admit that you can't and we can move on to something you can provide me evidence for. If you can't remember how to link someone, I urge you to go back to the post I made where I created a step by step instructional guide with pictures on how to insert links here.

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  4. #104
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Akar,

    Quote, " The springs of the deep will I open. A flood will I send which will affect all mankind at once. But seek thou deliverance before the flood breaks forth, for over all living beings, however many they are, will I bring annihilation, destruction, ruin. Take wood and pitch and build a large ship.......cubits be its complete height........a houseboat shall it be, containing those who preserve their life.......with a strong roofing cover it......the ship which thou makest, take into it.....the animals of the fields, the birds of the air and the reptiles, two of each, instead of their whole number......and the family of the......" Unquote.

    Bill Cooper lays out further explanation on Hilprecht and the opposition he faced so perhaps getting hold of the pamphlet it would elaborate not only the authenticity of the tablet but also the dating.

  5. #105
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Please provide me a source for that text, like I've repeatedly asked. Link me to the website you've extracted that from.

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  6. #106
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Akar,

    The big problem is that there are no unbiased accounts. One either accepts Hilprecht's interpretation or one seeks to not accept it. You see Hilprecht's version is completely in line with the Genesis version of the flood which makes the Gilgamesh version not only beaten in time as well as authenticity, meaning that unbelieving people will never want it to be true and therefore try to make it appear as a mistranslation. My own information about it came from the Creation Science Movement Pamphlet 382 by Bill Cooper PhD ThD. That makes me biased right away I hear you saying, but then you'ld only be interested in those that want to prove it wrong, a case for making the Bible look silly.
    Err that not how science or history woks Basics. I suppose it can for you you claim Hislprech's interpretation was divinely inspired or something so it matches what you want to believe. But sorry it was a bad job done a work that does not even have a certain provenience.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/1451121

    https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/do...10.1086/369652

    It is one thing to restore or guess a letter but the was restoring in whole phrases.

    H more picked a date he wanted and than jammed in passages to make make the bible story.

    The opposition to Hilprecht was that he did bad and likely purposely self serving bad job.

    A proper translation can be found here

    https://www.eisenbrauns.org/books/ti...506-184-9.html

    Although I think there is one buried in JSTOR somewhere as well but I can't seem to find it right now.
    Last edited by conon394; August 02, 2020 at 12:42 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #107
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Thank you for providing the source, Conon!

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  8. #108
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Bill Cooper PhD ThD
    Those would be two degrees he has from a college/university that simply does not exist.

    Bill Cooper PhD ThD

    There is an Emmanuel College in Boston and as been 100 years there is one at Cambridge as well. Both are respected institutions. There is however not one in Springdale, Arkansas of any kind handing out degrees of any type.

    https://www.emmanuel.edu/academics/p...s-studies.html

    https://www.emma.cam.ac.uk/about/

    Also know if you where at Cambridge and able to be able to provide an expert opinion on a translation of the text in question your degree would be from the department of archeology. And of course you would havea peer reviewed track record on dating or translating or judging emendations on such items as cruciform tablets otherwise you are just a crank.

    You know what Google scholar is your friend. I can find my wife, my best friend, old work colleges, people I worked for with a PhD in a about as long as it takes to type a name (by find I mean books or peer reviewed papers up to multiple pages and all the real places they worked for). Can't find old Bill at all. And that's saying something since I used to be a 'Librarian' for a Biotech - you the guy you just said hey I need this in an hour find it online or where we can get it - data, a new office chair a summary of what the our media profile was, etc.

    Edit there looks to be one in Georgia as well but a 4 year institution with no post graduate schools.

    There is an admissions counselor at Emmanuel of Boston who is From Arkansas so that does throw a hit, but the link is obviously to the Boston School.
    Last edited by conon394; August 02, 2020 at 01:35 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #109
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Bill Cooper is a impostor.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Bill Cooper (1) is a member of England's Creation Science Movement (formerly the Evolution Protest Movement), the oldest young earth creationist organization still in operation. (2) (3) (4) Cooper has been known to have used seemingly fake degrees in order to bolster his academic presence, a practice not exactly uncommon throughout the ranks of young earth proponents. His contributions to the literature of young earth creationism have also been heavily criticized by those in the scientific community. (5)

    Although he has been identified as a historian by fellow creationists, (6) Cooper's only legitimate claimed degree is a Bachelor's in English Literature through Kingston University in England. I attempted to contact the University in regards to Cooper's degree, as well as his claim to Honors, but did not receive a reply.

    Cooper also attaches the title of "Doctor" to his name, on the account of two claimed degrees: a Doctor of Philosophy (field unspecified) and a Doctor of Theology (field unspecified), both through Emmanuel College of Christian Studies in Springdale, Arkansas.

    The fact that 1.) Cooper does not provide the year in which he received any of his degrees, 2.) he does not include the respective subjects of either of his graduate degrees, and 3.) he received two doctorate level degrees immediately after his Bachelor's, caused me to become suspicious of the nature of these degrees.

    Brief investigation reveals that the school which Cooper claims as his alma mater, Emmanuel College of Christian Studies, does not exist. There is no website for the institution, and there is no location or campus to be found in Springdale, AR. The phone number listed for the school on Buzzfile is inactive*, (15) and the address provided can be viewed on Google Maps/Street View, showing that the "college" is actually a one story personal residence located in Arkansas. (17) There is an Emmanuel College in Franklin Springs, Georgia, which is accredited, but this does not appear to be the college in question, nor is it authorized to nor does it offer doctorate level degrees. (7)
    Roger Stanyard of the British Centre for Science Education has also confirmed that ECCS is nothing more than a fundamentalist scam. (8) It does not exist in any sense of the word, other than to function as a "free" diploma mill, has no physical location, and is not accredited, legitimate, recognized, etc. Its doctorate degrees are granted through another fundamentalist scam, the Cambridge Theological Seminary, USA, which has absolutely no connection to the "real" Cambridge in the United Kingdom, and is located in Ohio. (9) CTSU is a step below a diploma mill, handing out "Ph.D.s" for free, with the only requirement being belief in the historical Jesus (it also refuses to grant Th.D.s to homosexuals). We'll see more about ECCS's "founder" and "staff" below.

    Additionally, Cooper is only one of three people that can be identified as being alumni of these two scam-schools: one being an anonymous truck driver from Finland, and the other being fellow young earth creationist and cryptozoologist William J. Gibbons. (10)

    I'd like to end this article by tying together several loose ends, which I had not been aware of until an astute commenter pointed them out to me. The individuals who gave Cooper his degrees (including Cooper himself) seem to be connected behind the scenes, each with their own dodgy past educational practices. First, Cooper is one of the three known academic faculty members of either ECCS or CTSU, listing himself as a "professor" at CTSU (he is also an "adjunct professor" with the Institute for Creation Research's unnacredited Bible school: [11] keep that in mind, we'll come back to it).
    The other two employees are the Dean of ECCS, Dr. Gene Jeffries, and a faculty member of ECCS named Dr. James J. Scofield Johnson. The former (12) is listed as the "founder and president" of the St. Louis Institute of Biblical Studies (an institute that either never existed or no longer exists), Cambridge Graduate School (which is a trade name for ECCS) (15), and Emmanuel College of Christian Studies (the fake school that we've been discussing in this article). Additionally, Jeffries is the recipient of degrees from other questionable institutes (including Luther Rice, an unaccredited seminary originally located in Jacksonville, Florida, that cooperated with Carl Baugh and a non-existent "Australian branch" to grant him a fraudulent Masters degree in Archaeology [18]). (14)
    The latter is currently the Chief Academic Officer/Associate Professor of Apologetics with the Institute for Creation Research (10) (the same place where Cooper is listed as an "adjunct professor"). (13) While Johnson seems to have removed all mention of having been employed with ECCS from his professional profile, he has included the fact that he was apparently granted a doctorate of theology through the non-existent ECCS in 1996. (13)

    Thus it seems that Cooper, Jeffries, and Johnson granted themselves their own degrees (and apparently gave one to Cooper's wife while they were at it) (16) through the dubious back doors of several illegitimate institutions.

    *Another interesting thing to note is that the phone number provided for Cambridge Graduate School/Emmanuel College (15) is actually Jeffries' personal phone number (14)

    http://theeccentricnaturalist.blogsp...ll-cooper.html


    You simply can't get a "doctor" graduate degree without publishing your dissertation publicly.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; August 02, 2020 at 01:51 PM.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  10. #110
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    When people have to fake having degrees to make themselves seem credible it makes you wonder what their real priorities are...

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  11. #111
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    When people have to fake having degrees to make themselves seem credible it makes you wonder what their real priorities are...
    Also why over do to such an extent? Why not just say you have an MA from some program you started and never finished but have put years of research into your real calling? The minute you start tossing out Fake doctorate quality degrees its fairly easy to track down the scam. In my first case you could just walk back well the institution rejected my creative work, out of bias, but I still have the skills etc.

    Dunno it is to easy to detect an academic credential lie anymore, you really need to play it careful and close to the vest. I mean if you are some emeritus professor at 70 you could still probably pad easily stuff you supposedly did back in the day, but even that require a good available run recent stuff to be credible.
    Last edited by conon394; August 02, 2020 at 06:51 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  12. #112
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    People generally believe people more, which seem to have titles or authority.

    Look at the frauding of old people by fake policemen.

    People think:

    "Oh this guy has two doctor title, so he must be an authority and some truth in his story."
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  13. #113
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    I get reason why but the thing is it is now so very easy to see he does not. Thus even if he had an awesome point I can hardily not think his credibility is shot by a country mile. A little padding is one thing making up doctoral level degrees is another and doing so poorly is worse. I suppose his hope is people just what look up the name so end up at any of the existing colleges?

    Look at the frauding of old people by fake policemen.
    Hmm I am morbid lately I would have gone with runaways and such by serial killers as fake policemen.
    Last edited by conon394; August 02, 2020 at 03:27 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #114
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    I guess, it isn't important for his readers, as he writes for an audience, which want to believe his "truth" about creation.

    Hmm I am morbid lately I would have gone with runaways and such by serial killers as fake policemen.
    Hmm, aren't serial killers former policemen like the Golden State Killer, so they don't fake it?
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  15. #115
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Hmm, aren't serial killers former policemen like the Golden State Killer, so they don't fake it?
    Sure but I am pretty sure a handful more who just winged it with a bubble light to create a pull over or stop.

    But on the first point likely correct if you already believe unconditionally it really does not matter. However Bill Cooper looks a bit insecure as far as I can tell, if he needs to pad his CV so extravagantly.
    Last edited by conon394; August 02, 2020 at 07:13 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  16. #116
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    I quote, what i think his main motive is:

    Vanity, definitely my favorite sin.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  17. #117
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Personally I prefer pride, but hey. At least it keeps me from claiming things on my CV I have not done or don't think I cannot to in a pinch with a weekend crash refresh no sleep marathon.
    Last edited by conon394; August 02, 2020 at 07:55 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #118
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    I would not claim such things like Mr. Cooper here in Germany, as its criminal to use academic titles you haven't achieved ( § 132 a StGB).

    This law protects the public trust in academic titles and official offices.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  19. #119
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Please provide me a source for that text, like I've repeatedly asked. Link me to the website you've extracted that from.
    Akar,

    I have the Pamphlet before me and here is the address should you want to have it also. Creation Science Movement, PO Box 888, Portsmouth PO6 2YD UK. WWW.csm.org.uk; 02392 293988. Pamphlet 382, May 2011 by Bill Cooper.

  20. #120
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Akar,

    I have the Pamphlet before me and here is the address should you want to have it also. Creation Science Movement, PO Box 888, Portsmouth PO6 2YD UK. WWW.csm.org.uk; 02392 293988. Pamphlet 382, May 2011 by Bill Cooper.

    The question is why would anyone want to get the pamphlet a man is manifestly lying about his credentials and has no demonstrable expertise to comment on a work of a man while an actually and expert but is widely know to have falsified the work he published for over a century now?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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