How could a heaven operate?

[basics]

Be a bit odd there basics if your patron god did not bless you in your own self written creation story. Last I checked the Athenians were fairly confident 'their goddess' was pretty pro Athenian.

conon394,

Since the elect of God are both Jew and Gentile that make up the Israel of God as Paul tells us, why would God not bless me since I am one of His? The thing is ole fella, that I am not fairly confident about the actions and promises of God, rather absolutely resolute that His word and His word alone is truth. My explanations for creation are totally in line with what Genesis says and no way adds or subtracts from it. Perhaps you could show me where I differ?

[rosalix]

the first thing that comes to my mind is miracle workers series, season 1.

[basics]

the first thing that comes to my mind is miracle workers series, season 1.

rosalix,

Better still, try reading a Bible for some real authenticity.

[Akar]

Or, better yet, don't read the bible and you'll know exactly as much about what really happens after death as you did after reading the bible.

[basics]

Or, better yet, don't read the bible and you'll know exactly as much about what really happens after death as you did after reading the bible.

Akar,

Then tell us what does happen after death? As the One Who conquered death shouldn't Jesus Christ then know more about it than you? Please don't tell us there is no proof as the New Testament is filled with witnesses to His resurrection, even showing how the rulers tried to cover it up.

[Akar]

Nothing happens after death. It's the same as before you were born. I have no idea why people have a desperate need to think there is something after we die. There is not.

Again, you're relying on the bible to tell you that what happened in the bible is true. That's circular logic. The only sources for this are in the bible, meaning it cannot be verified. We've been over this a thousand times.

I don't really feel a need to disprove the nonsense of the resurrection, an idea so laughable that it would be considered writing if it was in any other book.

[basics]

Akar,

" It's the same as before you were born" really? I seem to believe that your father and mother were there before you were born just as their parents were and so on. But then I remember you insisting that science has proved that all the chemicals for life were just floating around waiting for the time when there was interaction between some to bring about this wonderful planet of which there is no other. It was the big bang and if so then there was something before you were born. The Bible however, being God's instruction book for us tells us that the same Source that was in the beginning also has a Source guiding us when our time on this planet is up. If that's circular logic then all history must be too so why accept what it writes and not what God writes? After all what cannot be contradicted is that certain people across this world having believed like you now know Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord and who now believe that His promise of life after death is not just possible as confirmed by the empty tomb but that He showed us the way and they now believe it. He even describes where you will be going in your present state of mind and so therefore to put that as far away as possible you insist there is nothing after you die. That He was witnessed by over four hundred people after His resurrection means nothing? That He was seen with two prophets on the mountain by Peter and John, yes two supposedly dead prophets of old means nothing that they were alive? There are plenty of books out there telling the personal stories of how Jesus Christ appeared to them but then that's not the sort of material you'ld ever bring yourself to read. Why even Youtube has plenty of these stories to tell. You live in darkness why? Because you're afraid of the Light.

[basics]

Akar,

" It's the same as before you were born" really? I seem to believe that your father and mother were there before you were born just as their parents were and so on. But then I remember you insisting that science has proved that all the chemicals for life were just floating around waiting for the time when there was interaction between some to bring about this wonderful planet of which there is no other. It was the big bang and if so then there was something before you were born. The Bible however, being God's instruction book for us tells us that the same Source that was in the beginning also has a Source guiding us when our time on this planet is up. If that's circular logic then all history must be too so why accept what it writes and not what God writes? After all what cannot be contradicted is that certain people across this world having believed like you now know Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord and who now believe that His promise of life after death is not just possible as confirmed by the empty tomb but that He showed us the way and they now believe it. He even describes where you will be going in your present state of mind and so therefore to put that as far away as possible you insist there is nothing after you die. That He was witnessed by over four hundred people after His resurrection means nothing? That He was seen with two prophets on the mountain by Peter and John, yes two supposedly dead prophets of old means nothing that they were alive? There are plenty of books out there telling the personal stories of how Jesus Christ appeared to them but then that's not the sort of material you'ld ever bring yourself to read. Why even Youtube has plenty of these stories to tell. You live in darkness why? Because you're afraid of the Light.

[Akar]

I seem to believe that your father and mother were there before you were born just as their parents were and so on.

Okay? What does that have to do with what I said? What did YOU experience before you were born? Absolutely nothing. And to absolute nothingness you will return. Willfully misconstruing my arguments wont get you anywhere.

But then I remember you insisting that science has proved that all the chemicals for life were just floating around waiting for the time when there was interaction between some to bring about this wonderful planet of which there is no other.

That's not even remotely close to what I said.

It was the big bang and if so then there was something before you were born.

Again, I didn't say there was nothing before you were born, just that you didn't experience any of it. I really don't know why you have such a hard time understanding this.

The Bible however, being God's instruction book for us tells us that the same Source that was in the beginning also has a Source guiding us when our time on this planet is up. If that's circular logic then all history must be too so why accept what it writes and not what God writes?

Once again you are saying "the bible says X" in order to logically argue why the bible must be true. Do you not see the fallacious nature of that logic? History is not circular logic because first of all, "history" is not a single book that purports to have all of the answers. It is thousands of years of collected writings from thousands and thousands of different sources, all taken together to construct the narrative of human history. You don't take everything every historian says as complete truth either, just ask Herodotus. Our knowledge of history grows and changes as new information is revealed, and new sources of information are discovered.

You cannot compare "all history" and "the bible" together.

After all what cannot be contradicted is that certain people across this world having believed like you now know Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord and who now believe that His promise of life after death is not just possible as confirmed by the empty tomb but that He showed us the way and they now believe it

Okay? So what? You cannot contradict that billions of people around the world also believe Allah is god and Mohammed is his prophet. In fact, even more people believe that than believe in your version of it. And, again, your only source for the resurrection is from the bible. So we get back to the circular logic once again.

He even describes where you will be going in your present state of mind and so therefore to put that as far away as possible you insist there is nothing after you die.

No, I insist there is nothing after you die because that is what all of the evidence suggests. I don't put any stock into what the bible says about what will happen after death.

That He was witnessed by over four hundred people after His resurrection means nothing?

That he claims to have been witnessed by over four hundred people. None of whom actually recorded that they witnessed him. If I write down that 500 people saw me do something, that doesn't make it true. And, again, you're relying on the bible to demonstrate its own validity.

That He was seen with two prophets on the mountain by Peter and John, yes two supposedly dead prophets of old means nothing that they were alive?

Writing that something happened does not make the thing true.

There are plenty of books out there telling the personal stories of how Jesus Christ appeared to them but then that's not the sort of material you'ld ever bring yourself to read

There's plenty of books out there telling the personal stories of how aliens abducted people and probed their anus, how Mohammed came to them in a dream and inspired them towards Jihad, or thousands of other variations of that same tune. The amount of books written about something do not mean that it's true.

You live in darkness why? Because you're afraid of the Light.

[basics]

Akar,

What evidence suggests there is nothing after death? Evidence comes by experiencing so what person has come back to life apart from Lazarus and Jesus Christ after so many days in the grave? How many scientists were there to disprove these events or any other where disciples raised the dead? Lazarus and Jesus were both dead for more than these others, Lazarus being said to be in a stinking state and yet funnily enough the Jewish rulers not only wanted to kill Jesus but Lazarus as well why? Because he, Lazarus was walking the planet when they crucified Jesus and they knew it. Yes the New Testament tells of the resurrection and of the witnesses who saw Him but the writers were and are known by name and there are more than the two desired by law to confirm it. That's evidence.

[Vladyvid]

This is purely based on beliefs, and there can be no evidence to support that what the Bible says is true. The content of the Bible was decided based on an acceptable consensus on religious dogmas and not based on truth or fact, dont you know?

Considering the fact that any sufficiently advanced technology can be considered as magic or divine intervention by sufficiently inferior species, in my view all religions on this planet are nothing more than manipulation by more advanced species. We are victims of millenia old mind control programs.

[TheLeft]

Q. How could a heaven operate?

A. It can't because God isn't real.

</discussion>

[Akar]

Again, your only source for these events is the bible. We've been over this a thousand times before. That is not enough. You're saying I should believe the bible because of the resurrections, but I should believe the resurrections because of the bible. Do you not see the circular nature of that reasoning?

How many scientists were there to disprove these events

You do not have to be somewhere to disprove something...

What evidence suggests there is nothing after death?

The cessation of biological function means there will be no perception of anything happening to the constituent matter of your corpse.

Considering the fact that any sufficiently advanced technology can be considered as magic or divine intervention by sufficiently inferior species, in my view all religions on this planet are nothing more than manipulation by more advanced species. We are victims of millenia old mind control programs.

There's as much evidence for this as there is for the bible. So.... it, I'm on board.

[basics]

OK all you disbelievers, let's get things into perspective. The Old Covenant or Testament goes all the way back to Moses but the lineage goes back much further and so before Moses gave us Genesis there was not only the oral tradition but written word such as Hilprecht's Flood Tablet in the University of Pennsylvania which dates to the time of Noah, Ham, Shem and Japeth when they would still be alive. So, Moses didn't make up the Genesis story. Getting now around to the New Testament times their Bible was the Old Covenant which Jesus preached from and what formed the New Testament was written by men who had known Him or had investigated Him. They didn't gang up and say let's all write about Him together, no, they began by writing letters to the new churches that were springing up across the near regions by Jews who had become believers at Pentecost. These letters would have been in Hebrew or Aramaic because these first Christians were Jewish converts. However once Gentiles began to believe in those regions what were mostly Jewish churches became predominantly attended by Gentiles so translations were made of what was written. It is these translations that became together with the Old Covenant what is our Bible. What I am saying is that the writers didn't wait sixty or seventy years to give us what we have now because from Pentecost they had been writing about Jesus to these churches. Most of these writers died for their knowledge and belief in Jesus Christ, killed by the enemies of God. Why is it that you say there is no evidence when men and women have been flayed, flogged, butchered, burnt or crucified for believing on Him when it would have been easier to deny Him? The evidence is that they could never deny Him and that's why they were killed even right up to this present day. Explain how their deaths are not evidence?

[Akar]

Why is it that you say there is no evidence when men and women have been flayed, flogged, butchered, burnt or crucified for believing on Him when it would have been easier to deny Him?

People being willing to die for an idea is not evidence of it's validity. Or is ISIS's willingness to blow themselves up for Allah indicative of the truth of the Koran? People die for stupid all the time, it sure as hell doesn't make that stupid true.

The evidence is that they could never deny Him and that's why they were killed even right up to this present day.

Them sticking to their guns is proof of nothing but their fanaticism and the illogical nature of religious belief. I also seriously doubt that they refused to recant under torture, that's likely just a myth or story to make them seem like martyrs. Give me 30 minutes with any christian and a waterboard and I'll have them renouncing god for any opportunity to make it stop. Torture is remarkably effective at getting people to say what you want, even if it's not true.

What I am saying is that the writers didn't wait sixty or seventy years to give us what we have now

Except that yes, in many cases they DID wait sixty, seventy, or a hundred years to write these things down.

Hilprecht's Flood Tablet

I assume this refers to the eleventh tablet of the Epic of Gilgamesh?

This is just evidence of the fact that the vast majority of the old testament was stolen wholesale from other Mesopotamian religions, like how Moses' story is literally the story of Sargon of Akkad. Moreover, historians do not consider this to be proof of the christian flood myth and it is widely believed that this specific aspect of the Epic of Gilgamesh was lifted (almost word for word) from the Atra-Hasis. You can see in the table below (taken from Wiki) that the Atra-Hasis myth doesn't support the world wide flood notion and refers to a more localized event.



As far as I know, every single culture that developed alongside a heavy floodplain like Mesopotamia or the Nile has similar great flood myths. What would you expect from a civilization who's entire known world flooded? When the entire known world is smaller than most countries today it's not at all unexpected to find stories of floods that wipe out or kill entire cultures.

Additionally, there is significant other contextual information from the Atra-Hasis that is left out in the Epic of Gilgamesh that again implies that the story isn't that of a global world ending flood but rather a localized event that didn't allege to wipe out entire cultures.

[basics]

Akar,

No my friend, the Hilprecht Tablets are about 150 years older than your Gilgamesh ones and here's where it might hurt, they all talk of Noah's flood, that man and his sons being alive when it was written. John who was the youngest of the twelve disciples wrote The Revelation of Jesus Christ in his nineties also wrote two other books in the Scriptures before that but don't tell me that he wrote nothing else from Pentecost because as a leading figure at Jerusalem he must have been involved with the letters sent to the infant churches. Letters were the internet of their day so don't even try to tell me or anyone else with a brain that most of these letters were not about the wonderful works that Jesus said and did. He witnessed them so why would he keep them secret all those years especially that Jesus' last command was to go out into all the world and teach the good news.

[Akar]

I can't find anything published within the last 100 years about that tablet. Can you please provide an unbiased (i.e, not a christian website) source for it.

Hilprecht's wikipedia page makes zero reference to him discovering any sort of tablet.

[basics]

This is purely based on beliefs, and there can be no evidence to support that what the Bible says is true. The content of the Bible was decided based on an acceptable consensus on religious dogmas and not based on truth or fact, dont you know?

Considering the fact that any sufficiently advanced technology can be considered as magic or divine intervention by sufficiently inferior species, in my view all religions on this planet are nothing more than manipulation by more advanced species. We are victims of millenia old mind control programs.

Vladyvid,

It's not just what the Bible says, rather what each writer in it has experienced being with or around Jesus Christ. It is also what many have experienced since those days proving what the writers have said. God is your so-called advanced species, the One True God in Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is no other. What we can see as our existence is no more than a speck in the palms of His hands yet He knows every aspect of every thing because He alone is allknowing. Those that do believe Him got there only because He gave them the sight to see it but more than that, the heart to see it. No-one can outrun God.

[Akar]

So you have no source then, Basics?

[basics]

So you have no source then, Basics?

Akar,

The Hilprecht Tablet CBM 13532 at the University of Pennsylvania is the source.