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Thread: How could a heaven operate?

  1. #61
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    I didn't even know he was referring to Idi Amin, honestly.

    One can criticize Israel as one would criticize any other state without implying bigotry against the state's population or predominate ethnicity. However, from what I can tell, the majority of anti-Israel sentiment appears to be correlated with antisemitic beliefs.
    That doesn't invalidate the numerous criticisms of Israel. Israel can't hide behind the shield of anti-semitism forever. None of my anti-Israel claims are based in anti-semitism, so it's pretty funny to see people accuse me of anti-semitism every time I criticize Israel.

    Ultimately all creation exists for God and he can do with it as he wishes. Complaining about God's choices as if he exists to serve you rather than the other way around is just arrogance speaking.
    Assuming that your viewpoint is correcting and condescending to everyone who disagrees with you is arrogance speaking.

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  2. #62

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    I didn't even know he was referring to Idi Amin, honestly.

    That doesn't invalidate the numerous criticisms of Israel. Israel can't hide behind the shield of anti-semitism forever. None of my anti-Israel claims are based in anti-semitism, so it's pretty funny to see people accuse me of anti-semitism every time I criticize Israel.
    Say "Israel has a right to exist".



  3. #63

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    I didn't even know he was referring to Idi Amin, honestly.
    What other despot were the hostages at Entebbe rescued from?
    Do you just reflexively defend people who take Jews hostage, while claiming ignorance?

  4. #64
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    It should be answered in regards to just who are going to heaven that not all Jews will be there which should please Akar. It is written that at some point, " all Israel will be saved....." but that does not mean all Jews will be saved because they were chosen to carry the oracles of God. All Israel in this context means all the Jews and Gentiles who are born again of the Spirit of God for as Paul tells us not all Jews are Jews of the same Spirit. Only those, Jew and Gentile who have been washed in the blood of the Lamb will get there. So why then are we to bless that people as a whole? The answer is and always was that in every generation of Jew and Gentile God has reserved a remnant to be saved. That applies right up until Jesus comes back to raise up His people and it corrolates well with the command that we forgive or in Jesus' words, " Father forgive them for they know not what they do." That is why we have to bless Israel.

  5. #65

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Speaking of Jews, anti-Semitism and anti-theism are actually pretty similar. Like anti-Semitism, anti-theism preserves the appearance of reason and evidence, but deep down it's not really an idea so much as a passion. Just like the anti-Semite, who chooses hate freely and out of his own volition and then drapes his hatred in highly sophisticated scientific and moral proofs, the anti-theist first hates religion and then goes out in search of intellectual warrant for it. Both anti-Semitism and anti-theism lack any rational warrant, but the fundamental thing about them is that they are first moral defects before they become errors of the understanding. No one can be reasoned out of their anti-Semitism or anti-theism, because they were never reasoned into them in the first place. So in discussions with anti-Semites and anti-theists, you'll often find yourself refuting their arguments one after the next, without coming one bit closer to changing their mind. Because ultimately it's a sin or emotional problem you're dealing with, not an intellectual problem.
    Last edited by Prodromos; July 09, 2020 at 05:46 AM.
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  6. #66
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?


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  7. #67

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post


    “In speaking of the fear of religion, I don’t mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions and religious institutions, in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper–namely, the fear of religion itself.

    “I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn't just that I don't believe in God and, naturally, hope that I'm right in my belief. It's that I hope there is no God! I don't want there to be a God; I don't want the universe to be like that. My guess is that this cosmic authority problem is not a rare condition and that it is responsible for much of the scientism and reductionism of our time.”

    ~ Thomas Nagel, “The Last Word”
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  8. #68

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    You hijacked the evils of anti-Semitism to draw a false equivalence between it and anti-theism. The accusations you introduced are so generic that they could be levelled against any view or position you wished (ie. liberalism is akin to anti-Semitism, Islam is akin to anti-Semitism, monarchism is akin to anti-Semitism etc.). To this extent, your argument was nothing more than a sophistic ad hominem masquerading as a rational proposition (ie. anti-theists are as morally contemptible as racists).

    The source of your interlocutor's amusement (I found it depressing) came from the following ironies: (1) your accusation that others are trying to "preserve the appearance of reason" in a diatribe which itself desperately attempted to preserve the appearance of reason; (2) your pining for respectable debate just moments after having derailed a discussion by comparing your interlocutors to racists.
    Last edited by Cope; July 10, 2020 at 04:51 AM.



  9. #69
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Cope,

    The person who brought up any anti-semitism was not Prodromos, rather Akar, so from your post in reply to Prodromos it is obvious that you see no corrolation between the two when in fact there is. Genesis 12 1-3 clearly states what God feels about Israel. Therefore, any system that denounces Christianity is also denouncing the Jews whether it be religions or anything else, why? Because the Israel of God are both Jew and Gentile alike born again of the Spirit of God.

  10. #70
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Be a bit odd there basics if your patron god did not bless you in your own self written creation story. Last I checked the Athenians were fairly confident 'their goddess' was pretty pro Athenian.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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  11. #71

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    your argument was nothing more than a sophistic ad hominem masquerading as a rational proposition (ie. anti-theists are as morally contemptible as racists).
    If that's what you think my argument boils down to, your interpretive skills are sorely lacking. My point (which you yourself made some months back) is that anti-theism is a volitional hatred and the intellectual objections are merely a cover, which is why intellectual debates with anti-theists rarely go anywhere. Granted, there are other victims of volitional hatred besides Jews and religion, but I fail to see how that's a defeater for my argument. How you read my post and concluded that I was claiming "anti-theists are as morally contemptible as racists" is beyond me.
    Last edited by Prodromos; July 10, 2020 at 06:43 AM.
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  12. #72

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    If that's what you think my argument boils down to, your interpretive skills are sorely lacking. My point (which you yourself made some months back) is that anti-theism is a volitional hatred and the intellectual objections are merely a cover, which is why intellectual debates with anti-theists rarely go anywhere. Granted, there are other victims of volitional hatred besides Jews and religion, but I fail to see how that's a defeater for my argument. How you read my post and concluded that I was claiming "anti-theists are as morally contemptible as racists" is beyond me.
    You openly compared anti-theists to anti-Semites and claimed they were inspired by hatred and anti-intellectualism. There is no way to read your post other than as an ad hominem masquerading as a rational critique. And you follow up one ad hominem with another when you claim a deficiency in my "interpretative skills".

    The fact that I rebuked a particular subset of new atheists who have no knowledge of the texts and traditions which they virulently oppose doesn't give you licence to claim that I supported your sweeping generalizations. Don't misquote me again.
    Last edited by Cope; July 10, 2020 at 07:06 AM.



  13. #73

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    You openly compared anti-theists to anti-Semites and claimed they were inspired by hatred and anti-intellectualism. There is no other way to read your post other than as an ad hominem attack masquerading as a rational critique. The fact that I rebuked a particular subset of new atheists who have no knowledge of the texts and traditions which they virulently oppose doesn't give you licence to claim that I supported your sweeping generalizations. Don't misquote me again.
    False. I noted similarities between anti-Semitism and anti-theism as volitional hatreds; nowhere in my post did I claim that "anti-theists are as morally contemptible as racists", nor was my post even directed at anyone in particular. These are wild assumptions you've made with little or no justification. It makes no sense to hold on to your incorrect interpretation of my post when I, the actual poster, have already clarified that it's a misinterpretation.
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  14. #74

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    False. I noted similarities between anti-Semitism and anti-theism as volitional hatreds; nowhere in my post did I claim that "anti-theists are as morally contemptible as racists", nor was my post even directed at anyone in particular. These are wild assumptions you've made with little or no justification.
    That was the self-evident intention of your post. There was no reason to introduce the comparison to anti-Semitism otherwise. You even explained (and continue to explain) the comparison in terms of hatred and anti-intellectualism (the very elements which make anti-Semitism morally unjustifiable).

    It makes no sense to hold on to your incorrect interpretation of my post when I, the actual poster, have already clarified that it's a misinterpretation.
    You're trying (and failing) to reinvent your argument to avoid answering my criticisms of it. Some would call that backtracking.



  15. #75

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    That was the self-evident intention of your post. There was no reason to introduce the comparison to anti-Semitism otherwise. You even explained (and continue to explain) the comparison in terms of hatred and anti-intellectualism (the very elements which make anti-Semitism morally unjustifiable).
    As the person who made the post, I think I'm aware of my intention behind it and the point I was trying to communicate with it. The fact that my argument included the claim that anti-theism is rooted in sin or emotion doesn't lead to the conclusion that 1) I believe "anti-theists are as morally contemptible as racists"; or 2) I was attempting to insult anti-theists, particularly anti-theists in this thread.

    The reason I mentioned anti-Semitism is because it was already being discussed in the thread. Had the discussion been about anti-black attitudes instead, I would've noted the similarities between that and anti-theism.

    You're trying (and failing) to reinvent your argument to avoid answering my criticisms of it. Some would call that backtracking.
    How this reads to me: "Please PLEASE defend this silly made-up version of your argument instead of your actual position"

    I don't know about that, man. I don't know about that. I'm ready to defend my actual argument, though.
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  16. #76

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    As the person who made the post, I think I'm aware of my intention behind it and the point I was trying to communicate with it. The fact that my argument included the claim that anti-theism is rooted in sin or emotion doesn't lead to the conclusion that 1) I believe "anti-theists are as morally contemptible as racists"; or 2) I was attempting to insult anti-theists, particularly anti-theists in this thread.

    The reason I mentioned anti-Semitism is because it was already being discussed in the thread. Had the discussion been about anti-black attitudes instead, I would've noted the similarities between that and anti-theism.

    How this reads to me: "Please PLEASE defend this silly made-up version of your argument instead of your actual position"

    I don't know about that, man. I don't know about that. I'm ready to defend my actual argument, though.
    So you didn't mean to say that anti-theism is comparable to racism, but it is comparable to "anti-black attitudes" - known also as racism.



  17. #77

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    "Stalin and Reagan are similar in that they both led large nations" =/= "Stalin and Reagan are the same"

    Comparing =/= equating
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  18. #78

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    "Stalin and Reagan are similar in that they both led large nations" =/= "Stalin and Reagan are the same"

    Comparing =/= equating
    Except you explicitly compared anti-theism to anti-Semitism on the basis that it was hate based and anti-intellectual (ie. the very foundations of racism). In a hurried attempt to backtrack, you then inadvertently hung your own argument by claiming that a comparison between anti-theism and anti-Blackness (ie. express racism) would have been just as apt.

    It's time to stop digging.



  19. #79

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Except you explicitly compared anti-theism to anti-Semitism on the basis that it was hate based and anti-intellectual (ie. the very foundations of racism). In a hurried attempt to backtrack, you then inadvertently hung your own argument by claiming that a comparison between anti-theism and anti-Blackness (ie. express racism) would have been just as apt.

    It's time to stop digging.
    No intellectually honest person would read, "anti-theists disguise their hate for religion under a veneer of intellectual objections", and derive from it the idea that "anti-theists are as morally contemptible as racists." Your continued misrepresentation of my argument even in the face of multiple corrections leads me to the conclusion that you're posting in bad faith. I think this back-and-forth has gone on long enough. I'll let you have the last word, though.
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  20. #80
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    No intellectually honest person
    And yet everyone has so far taken it to mean just that.

    If everywhere you go smells like , maybe it's you that smells like not everyone else.

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