How could a heaven operate?

[AqD]

Several logic problems regarding the idea of a heaven were raised on the real TWC discord place and I'm hoping people who're knowledgeable about religions could answer those: (could be Christian heaven or anything)

- Do monkeys or chimps go to heaven in afterlife, or hell, or nothing at all? Considering they're quite close to humans in intelligence and society. If the answer is yes or hell, what have they done to deserve that?

- Do people make feces in heaven?

- If yes:

- Do they require sewage, toilet paper and so on?
- Do they need labors, cleaners and factories for above?
- Can it truly be a heaven when some people have to do dirty and/or repetitive work in heaven?
- Are some people above others in any organization, since management would definitely be required for the infrastructure?
- Is everyone just happy with their work, whatever it is, like those in Soviet?

- If not, where would all the dirty things normally happen in our life go? Do people even sweat? Or produce trash? Is there even dust?

- What about insects and cockroaches in heaven ... ?

[basics]

AqD,

There is no Biblical answer to your questions regarding animal life but there are perhaps some hints from the garden that God placed on the planet that there might well be animals in heaven. This is where your questions become a little ridiculous, why, because Heaven is a Spiritual place where no reproduction, marriage, takes place nor is there any pain, disease or corruption because those in it are now Spiritual beings. If the garden was ever an insight to heaven and I believe it was, we find that there was nothing in your questions mentioned in it or about it, as each species lived in harmony with each other.

So, having had a lovely German Shepherd who lived 11 years, a Belgian Malenois, 15 years and now a Siberian Husky and another German Shepherd it would be lovely to think that we could be joined together for all eternity. If that were the case then why would they need to defecate because if they did then they wouldn't nor couldn't be in heaven. It's God's home and so there is nothing unclean about it. The important thing is that I want to be in heaven to be with the One Who made it possible for me to be there, to be part of His family and so anything else would be a blessing indeed.

[Cyclops]

For a start the OT makes it quite clear heaven is full of water and has windows, which can be opened to flood the Earth but are no longer to be opened per the Rainbow Covenant. So it follows that angels and saints etc either have gills or a short lifespan. Thus the image of angels with wings is fanciful, and scripturally speaking its more likely they have fins.

In the Lords prayer Jesus specifically states the Kingdom is to operate on earth as it is in Heaven. If Jesus pooped then they poop in heaven, although obviously toilet paper would not work so well in the saturated environment: nor would flushing. There are two people in Scripture who ascend bodily into heaven (Elijah, Elisha) and Catholic dogma asserts Mary was assumed body and soul as well. They have been up there for some time, and hopefully grew gills (otherwise whats the point?), so its fair to assume they would be pooping in the water.

There are feasts served in the heavenly Kingdom according to several verse in the NT, so its likely people would be pooping up there, otherwise they would be gaining a lot of weight.

[basics]

Cyclops,

I think you know better. From the Monty Python series may I suggest, " You are a very naughty boy."

[sumskilz]

For a start the OT makes it quite clear heaven is full of water and has windows

Although, it's not heaven as an afterlife concept, it's the sky. Waters (plural) is mayim. What's translated as heaven is hašāmayim, which translated literally comes out awkwardly as "that of waters". If you want to translate it literally in historical context, it would be "the sky". And the "windows" aren't exactly windows. It's the word for chimneys in modern Hebrew. Back then it meant the hole in your roof that was opened to let smoke out, but if you left it open at the wrong time, rain would have poured into your house. Evidently these are called "smoke holes" in English, but you never hear much talk about smoke holes these days, so I guess that's why translators go with "windows".

[Cyclops]

Although, it's not heaven as an afterlife concept, it's the sky. Waters (plural) is mayim. What's translated as heaven is hašāmayim, which translated literally comes out awkwardly as "that of waters". If you want to translate it literally in historical context, it would be "the sky". And the "windows" aren't exactly windows. It's the word for chimneys in modern Hebrew. Back then it meant the hole in your roof that was opened to let smoke out, but if you left it open at the wrong time, rain would have poured into your house. Evidently these are called "smoke holes" in English, but you never hear much talk about smoke holes these days, so I guess that's why translators go with "windows".

Are trying to pretend the KJV is not the literal word of God? Next you'll be telling me turtles can't sing.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Most Biblical sources don't even describe "Heaven". Anyway the Christian conception of Heaven is not completely in line with the original Judaic concept.

[basics]

Having a Hebrew, Greek, English Interlinear Bible as well as the KJV, I see no problem in accepting it, the KJV, as the very word of God. Each stage or day of creation had a purpose behind it and as it unfolded it's main purpose was to show the Might and Power of God. The first chapter is solely about God whilst the second turns to what He created. The thing to take in is that our existence has been comleted, done and dusted, from before the worlds were made. In other words God's story was finished before creation was brought into existence. We are but bit part players in that story. Could He have made it so that everything was up and running on that first day? Of course He could but then where would His story be if each day in our existence did not have a pirpose.

Now when we talk about God separating the waters to make a firmament above the earth there were two purposes behind that. One, preparation for the flood in Noah's time, but until then to protect man's lifespan as he reproduced on the planet. Men lived anything up to a thousand years of age and more but when the flood was over man's age dropped significantly and would do so again at a later time, why? Because the sun didn't have the barriers that it once did. Today the cry is not for God, rather how do we beat global warming which some declare will finish this planet in the very near future. The answer is not on how to stop the inevitable, rather see the truth written in the Word of God and make yourself safe by that.

Concerning heaven Jesus describes it quite well in the parable of the poor and rich men. Heaven and hell are adjacent to one another and so in both there is no darkness so in the picture painted by Jesus there is only light. In that light the rich man can find no comfort and begs to be let out. Being refused he then begs for his brothers to be warned which again is refused. He could see the poor man in the bosom of Abraham across the divide but by then it was too late. For him eternal torment lay ahead as it does for all them that reject Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord and when they look across the divide they won't see the poor man, what they will see is Him Whom they rejected forever and ever. As the light pours down on them there will be no rest, no respite. On the other side enjoying life with their Saviour and Lord will be all them whose lives were changed by hearing or reading the Gospel of Jesus Christ because it is the power of God unto salvation.

[Swiss Army Cheese]

I reckon that the 10 Commandments and whatnot were all designed with the functionality of heaven in mind, which is why God doesn't seem to care so long as you repent before you die.

If people broke the first 3 Commandments, no one would know who is in charge and heaven would become a very chaotic place.
Murder and is forbidden because have you ever tried to get blood and semen stains out of a cloud? Even if God could get the stains out, it would mean it would start raining blood and semen, which wouldn't be very pleasent for those of us on Earth. Everyone would be complaining to God to get his subjects to stop doing all that hanky panky up there.




The whole "Thou shalt not steal, and Thou shalt not covert someone else's wife" is there because heaven has a limited amount of resources. If people started stealing people's wives, then there wouldn't be enough wives for everyone in heaven. Heaven can only afford to give people 72 virgins each. If someone started coverting your wife and stealing her from you, you'd feel pretty ripped off as you wouldn't have your 72 virgins to attend you, you'd have 71. And no one has ever died in God's name for a mere 71 virgins!

Several logic problems regarding the idea of a heaven were raised on the real TWC discord place and I'm hoping people who're knowledgeable about religions could answer those: (could be Christian heaven or anything)

- Do monkeys or chimps go to heaven in afterlife, or hell, or nothing at all? Considering they're quite close to humans in intelligence and society. If the answer is yes or hell, what have they done to deserve that?

Them being sent to hell will be seen as necessary since it'll prolong the amount of time till the heat-death of the universe. Something's gotta fuel that fire of helios. And it might as well be a soul powered sol.

The Aztecs stopped their human sacrafices since Mexico was christianising, and sacraficing christian hearts to the sun doesn't work to stall the heat-death as Christian souls only go as high as heaven (and not to the sun).

- Do people make feces in heaven?

- If yes:

- Do they require sewage, toilet paper and so on?
- Do they need labors, cleaners and factories for above?
- Can it truly be a heaven when some people have to do dirty and/or repetitive work in heaven?
- Are some people above others in any organization, since management would definitely be required for the infrastructure?
- Is everyone just happy with their work, whatever it is, like those in Soviet?

- If not, where would all the dirty things normally happen in our life go? Do people even sweat? Or produce trash? Is there even dust?

Of course people pooh in heaven (w̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶d̶o̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶b̶i̶r̶d̶-̶p̶o̶o̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶e̶s̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶?̶). It's not like people can hold it in for an eternity. After people pooh in heaven the sewage is then treated at the local heavenly sewage treatment plant so it can be purified before it comes down as rain.

[basics]

I'm afraid the idea of a heaven that some of you pretend it to be is not the Biblical explanation for God's home at all. When Jesus was resurrected it was in bodily form but just as Paul describes for all at our resurrection, Jesus went through a transformation that those that saw Him found it hard to believe it was Him until they saw the scars from the nails and spear. He was reverting to what he was before He became a man. Just so, us humans will be transformed from our corrupt bodies to having uncorrupted ones making us too acceptable for heaven. Heaven is a Spiritual place where there is no corruption and poo being a corruption to our bodies as we are now why would God change heaven to let us poo? Any eating and drinking in heaven will be such that we have no need to discard anything, why? Because it will be pure nourishment with no corruptive effects. The question is more a joke than anything else but if you don't believe me try reading the Bible.

[AqD]

So nothing dirty as I understood so far. But if every species live in harmony, can they still eat roasted pigs? I imagine pigs wouldn't just happily go to kitchen and commit suicide, even if they might be resurrected later. Unless people don't eat at all?

Do they wear clothes? If they wear clothes there must be people making clothes yes? Then we can go back to the discussion of labor happiness and well-being, unions, employer-employee issues, as well as competition between clothes makers and jealousy between people who wear clothes.

What would people do all day, since reproduction activities are forbidden?

No it's not meant to be a joke. I'm just trying to understand how it could operate logically. Right now I can only imagine a real heaven to be like this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[basics]

AqD,

If the garden in Eden was a picture, a shadow of heaven, as I believe it was, then what we will eat will be fruit and herbs, that is if we have to eat at all. For sure there will be no animals dying to feed us including pigs that is of course if there will be animals in heaven. As for clothing the apparel we receive will be as we are, everlasting. Our joy will be in whatever God intends for us once we get there. The me, me, me thing that humans have won't apply any more as God will be the centre of all things.

[AqD]

No meat, no sex and no new clothes, isn't this just like the world of medieval nuns, whose only comfort in life is their connection to God?

Your heaven is worse than hell to me, basics. Is this really considered appealing to Christians?

[Muizer]

An interesting question would be which part of a person would end up in heaven. In popular culture, ascending to heaven is often likened to stepping through a door. The problems arise when you start considering that little seems to change in the subject's self perception as they pass through that door. That is of course untenable. Upon death, a person would arrive at the gates of heaven with their self perception formed by their experiences. Yet, if that is the case, then people who live to be really old and senile would be sorely disadvantaged, as would those who died before they could even properly self-conceptualize. Another thing is the whole idea of 'being reunited with your loved ones'. If someone outlives their parents by 30 years, and in that process developed into a quite different person, who, exactly would be 'reunited'?

Thus I'd say to the question 'how would a heaven work' is that not all of what a person knows and has experienced in life can be carried into the afterlife, or if it were it would take the form of something other than a self image. Something you would 'remember' without self-identifying with 'the final instance'. Like a recording you can watch and rewind. The wathcer would have to be some 'essence' that is constant throughout time both on earth and in heaven. I guess that fits well with the notion of predestination. Does not at all accord with anything implying that someone might qualify for heaven at some points in their life, but not in others.

Anyway, just some thoughts. I suppose there are theologians who have pondered this question at far greater length.

[basics]

No meat, no sex and no new clothes, isn't this just like the world of medieval nuns, whose only comfort in life is their connection to God?

Your heaven is worse than hell to me, basics. Is this really considered appealing to Christians?

AqD,

Well, being in a timeless new world as we will be, even those in hell, why would we need to bother about such things. Of course the exception is with them in hell who still retain their desires yet will never be able to satisfy them as Jesus pointed out. That is their everlasting torment. Those in heaven having lost these desires through the completion of regeneration at their transformation when Jesus Christ collects them in won't have worldly desires any longer. The centre of their attraction is God, Him being their reward and so anything extra from God will be a bonus.

[Cyclops]

So to get into heaven we cease to be human? Sounds like XCOM 2 if you ask me. Exactly what is God doing with the bodies anyway...

[basics]

So to get into heaven we cease to be human? Sounds like XCOM 2 if you ask me. Exactly what is God doing with the bodies anyway...

Cyclops,

Believers at their resurrection will find their bodies changed in an instant as Paul says when they are lifted up to join Jesus in the air. There is nothing said about unbelievers as they are lifted up and sent into hell. All the rest of creation is burnt up like a scroll. So, in that sense we who are believers saved by the grace of God will cease to be human in the form we now know. Will we have bodies, yes, but not as we have now, why? Because heaven is a Spiritual place and the New heaven and earth will be Spiritual as well because God will be our Companion able to be seen face to face.

[AqD]

@basics: You haven't answered. Things such as daily life, society and economy exist wherever there are humans, even if they're not being concerned. For example, what would people do all day in heaven? Would they still smell flowers, hear music or feel the touch of blanket?

Thus I'd say to the question 'how would a heaven work' is that not all of what a person knows and has experienced in life can be carried into the afterlife, or if it were it would take the form of something other than a self image. Something you would 'remember' without self-identifying with 'the final instance'. Like a recording you can watch and rewind. The wathcer would have to be some 'essence' that is constant throughout time both on earth and in heaven. I guess that fits well with the notion of predestination.

Wouldn't this mean every souls are in fact isolated from each other and what they interact with are fake?

[Prodromos]

No meat, no sex and no new clothes, isn't this just like the world of medieval nuns, whose only comfort in life is their connection to God?

Your heaven is worse than hell to me, basics. Is this really considered appealing to Christians?

You may be on to something there.

[basics]

@basics: You haven't answered. Things such as daily life, society and economy exist wherever there are humans, even if they're not being concerned. For example, what would people do all day in heaven? Would they still smell flowers, hear music or feel the touch of blanket?

Wouldn't this mean every souls are in fact isolated from each other and what they interact with are fake?

AqD,

The thing is that once we are in heaven or hell we won't be human organically. Those in heaven will receive the rewards God has for them, will that be buying and selling, I just don't know because Scripture doesn't even give a hint on that. But, if the garden of Eden was indeed a figure ot heaven as I believe it was, then there will be plenty to do in caring for what's to be in it. Those in hell however are in a perpetual state unable to do anything about the condition they find themselves in. They certainly won't be buying and selling anything. Yes, there will be music but not likely to be to your taste, and if there are flowers there's bound to be smell and if they have to be cared for then touch is also a yes. Concerning money, Jesus didn't have a bean to His name and so I guess we'll be in the same position as all our needs will be well catered for.