Page 3 of 15 FirstFirst 12345678910111213 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 287

Thread: How could a heaven operate?

  1. #41
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    a 7/11 parking lot with Patron and LaCroix
    Posts
    20,182
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    It is written
    And your source for this is exclusively the bible. And the bible's only primary source is....itself. Which means this entire line of thought is circular and self defeating. You must cite a source outside of the bible if you expect anyone who isn't already a christian to take your argument seriously. And if nothing else backs up the bible except the bible, that should make you question what the bible says not question everything else.

    Nations, empires, come and go but Israel is still Israel
    Well, still Israel since 1948 anyway. Israel has come and went just like many other nations have.

    one has to see the power of God in their history
    Yes, also the power of pre-emptive strikes, violating international law, and having military superiority over your enemies due to outside intervention.

    Check out the TWC D&D game!
    Message me on Discord (.akar.) for an invite to the Thema Devia Discord
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan







  2. #42
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    It is written that in the period between the fall of man and the flood God saw nothing but violence yet in that time men began to call on the name of God but which god, and so He decided to wipe them out and start all over again. Therefore it is not impossible for recollections of them to have survived the flood although they didn't. The OT is an account of God's people and not these others and when one looks at Israel today one has to see the power of God in their history. Nations, empires, come and go but Israel is still Israel. Why is that?
    Err yes that is nice internal logic. Too bad all to many people have different ones and the physical evidence says otherwise. Sorry no flood. And If taken as real there would at least two clear and easily identifiable genetic bottlenecks in the human DNA. One that that would make the one Cheetah's looks big. Particularly the first if only use the young earth ideal.

    You could start it is written for pretty much everyone's religion. It is written in the Illiad, It is written in ancient Indian texts, It is written in the Eddas and other Saga's.

    Nations, empires, come and go but Israel is still Israel. Why is that?
    Umm off the map for long stretches of time. You know the Roma (Romany speaking Gypsies) also outlasted empires and nations as have the Mbuti pygmies (pretty much a lot longer than Israel at any time or anyone who is not black and never left Africa).
    Last edited by conon394; July 01, 2020 at 08:01 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #43
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    [QUOTE=Akar;15930158]And your source for this is exclusively the bible. And the bible's only primary source is....itself. Which means this entire line of thought is circular and self defeating. You must cite a source outside of the bible if you expect anyone who isn't already a christian to take your argument seriously. And if nothing else backs up the bible except the bible, that should make you question what the bible says not question everything else.

    Well, still Israel since 1948 anyway. Israel has come and went just like many other nations have.

    Yes, also the power of pre-emptive strikes, violating international law, and having military superiority over your enemies due to outside intervention.[/QUOTE

    Akar,

    My source is the Gospel writers who wrote what Jesus said about heaven and hell, it happens to be in the Bible. As far as Israel is concerned, that people whether in the land or out of it are a major influence on the world, why? What is it about them that makes it so?

    Are they not entitled to defend themselves when danger gets close? Why is there outside intervention? Can you answer that honestly?

  4. #44
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?


    My source is the Gospel writers who wrote what Jesus said about heaven and hell, it happens to be in the Bible. As far as Israel is concerned, that people whether in the land or out of it are a major influence on the world, why? What is it about them that makes it so?

    Are they not entitled to defend themselves when danger gets close? Why is there outside intervention? Can you answer that honestly?
    I think the intent was not to suggest Israel should not act like any other nation state up to the level of its relative power and influence to defend itself. But rather Israel exists because through force of Arms, because after the WW2 there was a somewhat general acquiescence by the Great powers for it creation, and once the cold war got rolling opting to be a client (a high handed indeed) of the US which has chosen to back it to the hilt without many conditions.
    Last edited by conon394; July 01, 2020 at 08:07 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #45
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    a 7/11 parking lot with Patron and LaCroix
    Posts
    20,182
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    My source is the Gospel writers who wrote what Jesus said about heaven and hell, it happens to be in the Bible.
    Did you even read this before you posted it, lol?

    If your sources are found in the bible, then your source is the bible. You can't eat your cake and have it too.

    Are they not entitled to defend themselves when danger gets close? Why is there outside intervention? Can you answer that honestly?
    They're entitled to defend themselves, sure. They aren't entitled to murder medics, illegally annex land, build settlements on other's soil, commit apartheid, and numerous other war crimes.

    Check out the TWC D&D game!
    Message me on Discord (.akar.) for an invite to the Thema Devia Discord
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan







  6. #46
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    They're entitled to defend themselves, sure. They aren't entitled to murder medics, illegally annex land, build settlements on other's soil, commit apartheid, and numerous other war crimes.
    Well actually you are if you have sufficient power, or have really big friends and or just nobody caring.

    International law is all fine and good and at the margins it does constrain some states some time but be honest.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #47
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Akar,

    But the protestors in the US, Britain and elsewhere can do all these things that you accuse Israel of eh? Burn, murder, rape and steal the property of others is OK is it as long as their not Jewish? I'd watch what your saying here because it smells a little racist. Something else you said about being black and coming out of Africa a referral to the original men, would that not make the Jews a liitle paler than black and us Europeans just a whiter shade of black? If that is the case how can it be racism if we are all from that source? Just to finish let me say that I personally have never seen a black man nor have I ever seen a white man and I doubt anyone else ever has.

  8. #48
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    a 7/11 parking lot with Patron and LaCroix
    Posts
    20,182
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    But the protestors in the US, Britain and elsewhere can do all these things that you accuse Israel of eh? Burn, murder, rape and steal the property of others is OK is it as long as their not Jewish?
    Again, please find where I said murdering, raping, burning, and stealing are okay. All that I have said is that burning and looting are understandable ways of protesting in a society that values profit and capital over human life. There's also a massive difference between a protestor committing a crime and a sovereign nation and their sanctioned actors committing the crimes, don't you think? You should hold soldiers to higher standers than protestors. Though I think it's laughably naive to try to compare the war crimes Israel gets away with on a daily basis to anything protestors are doing.

    I'd watch what your saying here because it smells a little racist
    Speaking out against the violent actions of the Israeli state is not racist. I don't hate Jews, but I do hate Israel.

    Something else you said about being black and coming out of Africa a referral to the original men, would that not make the Jews a liitle paler than black and us Europeans just a whiter shade of black?
    I don't understand what you're saying here? Yeah, everyone is a different shade that's how colors work dude. Even if we are "a lighter shade of black" there are distinct differences between blacks/whites/asians/whatever, so it's stupid to try and say we're all just different shades of black.

    If that is the case how can it be racism if we are all from that source?
    How can what be racism? Racism is treating someone differently because of their race. If people are different, racism is possible.

    Just to finish let me say that I personally have never seen a black man nor have I ever seen a white man and I doubt anyone else ever has.
    In my experience those who say nonsense like this are the most racist of all, even if they don't realize it.

    Everyone sees color, good people just don't care. You're desperately attempting to sound holier than though and it's not working.

    Your entire post is incredibly confusing and it's not very clear what you're trying to say.

    Check out the TWC D&D game!
    Message me on Discord (.akar.) for an invite to the Thema Devia Discord
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan







  9. #49
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4,294

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    a heaven wouldn't have to operate. Everything would turn out just like the individual would want it. Eternal life, eternal happiness, no incentive to act at all. Have you ever watched a porn flick?

  10. #50
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Akar,

    In saying you hate Israel you in fact are saying you hate God, why? Because God says in Genesis, Isaiah, Psalms and Romans we are to bless Israel. Every other day Israelis are being rocketed, bombed or shot by terrorists not to mention all the injured. Are you suggesting that Israel does nothing in retaliation?

  11. #51
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    a 7/11 parking lot with Patron and LaCroix
    Posts
    20,182
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    In saying you hate Israel you in fact are saying you hate God, why? Because God says in Genesis, Isaiah, Psalms and Romans we are to bless Israel.


    Who cares?

    I base my beliefs on reality, not the bible.

    Also, I can't really "hate" god since he's not real. I think the idea of god is absurd, but that has nothing to do with Israel. I'm capable of not tying everything back to religion, unlike you.

    Every other day Israelis are being rocketed, bombed or shot by terrorists not to mention all the injured.
    Bit hypocritical to consider the Palestinians "terrorists" when the IDF originated out of paramilitary terrorist groups operating out of Mandatory Palestine. Not to mention that this is a crisis Israel started. They are the ones stealing and illegally annexing land and creating a refugee crisis by refusing to recognize Palestinian rights.

    Are you suggesting that Israel does nothing in retaliation?
    If you go around slapping people and then they hit you back, you have no right to "retaliation". These are all crisis that Israel started, you have no right to claim self defense when you go out of your way to commit war crimes and other atrocities.

    Check out the TWC D&D game!
    Message me on Discord (.akar.) for an invite to the Thema Devia Discord
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan







  12. #52

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Bit hypocritical to consider the Palestinians "terrorists" when the IDF originated out of paramilitary terrorist groups operating out of Mandatory Palestine. Not to mention that this is a crisis Israel started.
    That's not actually true. The IDF came from the Haganah not Irgun. Beginning in 1920, a segment of the Arab Palestinian population, who were anti-immigrant before it was cool, started attacking and killing Jews randomly. Tensions were rising over the Balfour Declaration, although this wasn't exactly something new, there had been several pogroms against Jews in Palestine in the Nineteenth Century before political Zionism existed. Since the British authorities were failing to sufficiently protect the Jewish communities, the Haganah, meaning "the defense" was formed in 1921. They maintained a policy of "restraint", meaning they only defended Jewish communities, they never attacked or actively retaliated against Arab militants. Although there was later a buildup in preparation for independence, restraint was more or less maintained until the 1948 war when they became the IDF. Because of the restraint policy, some hardliners split in 1931 to form Irgun, who from 1936 on were involved in revenge attacks against Arabs. Irgun also fought the British from 1944 to 1948. Shortly after the Haganah became the IDF, the IDF forced Irgun to disband, killing 16 of them and arresting another 200. Although most were released a few weeks later because Israel needed anyone who was able to fight. Irgun was never more than 4,000 at its peak, whereas the Haganah had 75,000 at its peak (30,000 on active duty).

    There are other issues you mentioned which you are somewhat misinformed about, but this is an odd thread for it.
    Last edited by sumskilz; July 07, 2020 at 02:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  13. #53
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    I still remember with pride the Entebbe Raid by the IDF. Those hostages must have felt they were in heaven as they boarded the planes to come home. A brilliant rescue from just another anti Jewish despot seeking to make a name for himself among the Arab nations. I can't quite grasp why people don't understand nor accept that the Jewish people are God's chosen nation, chosen to protect His word among the nations of the earth and despite their inadequacies He will continue to bless them and expect us to do the same.

  14. #54

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    I can't quite grasp why people don't understand nor accept that the Jewish people are God's chosen nation, chosen to protect His word among the nations of the earth and despite their inadequacies He will continue to bless them and expect us to do the same.

    Now THAT is racist. Arguing for inherent superiority of an ethnicity, whether you base it on religious, genetic, cultural or any other grounds, is racism. KKK, Spanish conquistadores, British settlers in America and later US...they all found justification of their aggression and ethnic superiority in Bible. And they weren't the only ones....

  15. #55
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    a 7/11 parking lot with Patron and LaCroix
    Posts
    20,182
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    I still remember with pride the Entebbe Raid by the IDF.
    Why ? You had nothing to do with it...

    Those hostages must have felt they were in heaven as they boarded the planes to come home.
    This can't be serious...

    A brilliant rescue from just another anti Jewish despot seeking to make a name for himself among the Arab nations
    Again, anti-Israeli is not anti-Jewish. Get it straight.

    I can't quite grasp why people don't understand nor accept that the Jewish people are God's chosen nation, chosen to protect His word among the nations of the earth and despite their inadequacies He will continue to bless them and expect us to do the same.
    Oh, so you actually are just racist, then? You're not even going to pretend to not be racist? So it's okay for Israel to commit war crimes and apartheid just because they're "god's chosen"?

    Sar1n is exactly right. What you're saying isn't one iota better than someone harping on about the 14 words, ethnic purity, or whatever. In fact, it's arguably worse since you hide it under this thin veneer of self righteous piety.

    Check out the TWC D&D game!
    Message me on Discord (.akar.) for an invite to the Thema Devia Discord
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan







  16. #56

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Again, anti-Israeli is not anti-Jewish. Get it straight.
    Are you serious?

    Quoting Idi Amin's letter to UN Secretary General Kurt Waldheim:

    “Germany is the right place where when Hitler was the Prime Minister and supreme commander, he burned over six million Jews. This is because Hitler and all German people knew that Israelis are not people who are working in the interest of the people of the world and that is why they burned the Israelis alive with gas in the soil of Germany.”

    That comes across as somewhat anti-Jewish to me. Neither was it an isolated incident.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  17. #57
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Now THAT is racist. Arguing for inherent superiority of an ethnicity, whether you base it on religious, genetic, cultural or any other grounds, is racism. KKK, Spanish conquistadores, British settlers in America and later US...they all found justification of their aggression and ethnic superiority in Bible. And they weren't the only ones....
    Sar1n,

    That's you also saying that anyone claiming to be a born again Christian is a racist because they are of God's elect. You guys will jump on anything, anything at all, just for the pleasure you get out of trying to change what you think the world should be and not what history has given us. I grew up with Jewish neighbours, was friends with their children, also worked for and alongside Jewish people and if memory serves me correct I never once heard anything racist from them. Indeed looking back not one failed at whatever it was they were employed in. Why is that? The Germans under Hitler saw it and so he killed six odd million of them just because they were Jews. Maybe I am wrong but aren't we all of one race, the human race? Could it be that perhaps it is them that shout racist the loudest really are the most racist of all?

  18. #58
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    a 7/11 parking lot with Patron and LaCroix
    Posts
    20,182
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Are you serious?

    Quoting Idi Amin's letter to UN Secretary General Kurt Waldheim:

    “Germany is the right place where when Hitler was the Prime Minister and supreme commander, he burned over six million Jews. This is because Hitler and all German people knew that Israelis are not people who are working in the interest of the people of the world and that is why they burned the Israelis alive with gas in the soil of Germany.”

    That comes across as somewhat anti-Jewish to me. Neither was it an isolated incident.
    To be clear, I just realized that said "anti-Israeli" instead of "anti-Israel" which I think definitely changes my intent .

    Well, yeah. That's openly anti-Semitic. I don't think anyone is surprised that infamous cannibal, war criminal, and lunatic Idi Amin is also a racist anti-Semite. I'd honestly be surprised if he wasn't. I don't see the relevancy of quoting this as if to prove that all criticism of Israel is somehow anti-Semitic. Just because someone is anti-Israel and also anti-Jewish does not mean that all people who are anti-Israel are also anti-Jewish. Yes, anti-Semites hate Israel too, surprise!

    Being anti-Israel does not automatically make you anti-Jewish though. Just like being anti-Communist China doesn't also mean you're anti-Asian. I highly doubt that all Jewish people condone the abhorrent actions of the Israeli government. I don't hate Jews, I don't even hate Israelis individually, but I do hate the Israeli government for what it does. To say that you cannot criticize Israel without criticizing Jews is absurdly illogical. I am not suggesting that people don't or can't hate both but the suggestion that one who hates one must hate the other is simply incorrect.

    That's you also saying that anyone claiming to be a born again Christian is a racist because they are of God's elect
    Anyone claiming that a specific race is the "chosen race" or somehow superior to another is by literal definition a racist.

    I grew up with Jewish neighbours, was friends with their children, also worked for and alongside Jewish people and if memory serves me correct I never once heard anything racist from them. Indeed looking back not one failed at whatever it was they were employed in. Why is that?
    Okay? No one here is saying Jews are inferior so I'm not sure what this anecdote is supposed to prove. If you're trying to say that they were somehow successful because they were Jewish then I'd say that you have a very limited sample size there compared to the 6,000,000+ that weren't successful because they were Jewish.

    Maybe I am wrong but aren't we all of one race, the human race?
    Yes, that's what everyone else but you has been saying the entire time. Also, that statement is entirely out of place with your previous statement that Jews are the chosen people. So, are we all just one human race or are the Jews "chosen"?

    Could it be that perhaps it is them that shout racist the loudest really are the most racist of all
    Are you really going to post what I said to you a few posts above to someone else?

    I think that you should remove the log from your eye before mentioning the splinter in Sar1n's


    EDIT: Every time you read "israeli" just assume I meant to say "israel" ughhh
    Last edited by Akar; July 06, 2020 at 03:24 AM.

    Check out the TWC D&D game!
    Message me on Discord (.akar.) for an invite to the Thema Devia Discord
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan







  19. #59

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Chosenness doesn't mean superiority, though, it's to do with playing a special role in God's plan for humanity. God has different purposes for different people, none of them are superior or inferior in the grand scheme of things.

    Ultimately all creation exists for God and he can do with it as he wishes. Complaining about God's choices as if he exists to serve you rather than the other way around is just arrogance speaking.

    Romans 9

    10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

    14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

    “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

    16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

    19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
    Last edited by Prodromos; July 06, 2020 at 08:46 AM.
    Ignore List (to save time):

    Exarch, Coughdrop addict

  20. #60

    Default Re: How could a heaven operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    I don't see the relevancy of quoting this as if to prove that all criticism of Israel is somehow anti-Semitic.
    You quoted Basics referring to Idi Amin as an "anti-Jewish despot" and responded "Again, anti-Israeli is not anti-Jewish. Get it straight", as if to suggest "anti-Jewish despot" was not an apt description.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    To say that you cannot criticize Israel without criticizing Jews is absurdly illogical.
    One can criticize Israel as one would criticize any other state without implying bigotry against the state's population or predominate ethnicity. However, from what I can tell, the majority of anti-Israel sentiment appears to be correlated with antisemitic beliefs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •