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Thread: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

  1. #61
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ˇAy Carmela!
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Let's focus on the topic, which is the British response to the Coronavirus pandemic, and not on our interlocutors. Also, please refrain from thinly veiled personal attacks and don't forget that the Terms of Service forbid all insults, both direct and implicit. Also, contrary to the common misconception, the moderation staff's automation has not yet been completed, so moderators are still expected to sleep from time to time (albeit in a gradually declining rates).
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; May 30, 2020 at 04:28 AM.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Thank you Cookiegod for telling it as it is. As he says , it's not just about the bodycount, massive though it is, it is the way Ministers are taking the piss.

    One ridiculous part of Cummings excuse for his lockdown-busting trip to Barnard Castle was that he wasn't sure that his eyesight was up to travelling to London.He said this with the full backing of the PM and several ministers.

    Every driver in Britain ( I hope ) would be aware of section 96 Road Traffic Act, which is in the Highway Code and an integral part of the driving test.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/96

    Absolute bull .

    And Cummings has a fantastic magic car that never needs refuelling, apparently and a kid who can journey to the furthest corners of the land without needing a piss.

    Michael Gove tried to suggest he regular broke traffic law on radio but even this serial liar couldn't make it work.


    Last edited by mongrel; May 30, 2020 at 04:39 AM.
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  3. #63
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    No anger,
    Lmao, sure, as if it isn't obvious.
    but otherwise yes.It's not as if I didn't encourage you to trap yourself in your own strawman. I could update, but because you have behaved like an arse, I'll leave it there. As I said, intelligent people can probably work out that in a world where people die every day , figures are not static and inevitably change.
    So, in other words, people who will bother clicking on the link will know that your statement is, in fact, false. Out of those people, only people who read the entire length of the article will know that, at least initially, you weren't trying to lie on purpose but only adopted this position later after being asked to correct your OP (in a quite polite way at first). But people who won't even click on the source will be misinformed by your lie and take it at face value. But again, not just the lie is the issue, it's also the source. It's the equivalent of comparing Sheffield, London, Bristol, Liverpool and Glasgow and declaring that London is the worlds biggest city. But yes, I suppose you do have a point, intelligent people would realise that it isn't a good source on their own and wouldn't base their arguments on it.
    I will now politely ask you to stop whining and engage with the subject, or not.
    I mean.. I did. Right in that post you've quoted only part of. Only.. wait for it.. you've ignored it.


  4. #64

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    nhytgbvfeco2, just read the damn thing before continuing with your daft obsession.

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15919719

    How you cannot get that my comment was accurate at time of writing, and situation changed only because the FT amended article in light of further data, obtained later, is beyond pathetic now.

    Back on topic, Tories are now pressing Boris to cut the safe distance to 1.5 m within 2 weeks, so that businesses can cram more plebs into their factories. Our lockdown policy is collapsing, Britain's funeral directors are going to love this.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...e-rule-within/
    Last edited by mongrel; May 30, 2020 at 08:10 AM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  5. #65
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Thank you Cookiegod for telling it as it is. As he says , it's not just about the bodycount, massive though it is,
    I see you are following the angry mob, swept up by the media. Have you acquired a burning torch yet or placard? Yes it is everything to do about that. It is about why the government were so slow to react at the start of the outbreak. Why sporting events like football and horse racing were not cancelled. Why we had a government adviser, who professed to be a scientist, sating publicly that gatherings at outdoor sporting events were unlikely to spread the virus. That instead, the main transmission was amongst family and friends indoors. Why we had a policy of so called "Herd Protection" based on no scientific evidence on how this disease spread. On why testing kits manufactured in the UK were shipped to Germany and yet the Country had insufficient to even begin testing health care workers. Why there was insufficient personal protection equipment and elderly patients were allowed to leave hospital to return to care homes largely untested!! I could go on and on.

    Yet, the media storm centres on a single man who is an adviser to Boris Johnson. Have you asked yourself why? Why newspapers like the Mail, Express and Sun were so indignant about his journey to take his artistic son as near home, as far as possible away from the epicentre of London. Why we have had days and days of the same headlines. But why good journalistic criticism of government strategy has been so lacking. The Left especially are so easily led by their own blind prejudice, branding him a “Populist”, a label that attracts vitriol from many both on the Left and the Centre of British politics.

    I genuinely feel sorry for the guy, he is derided and criticised in equal measure, because he has been made into a scapegoat. Even had a cut out of his face on the cover of the Daily Star paper out of mockery. A victim of his own success and alienation to the establishment. A good and easy target for those who resented his approach on Brexit. What could be a better diversion from the government's list of errors which have undoubtedly cost lives. It is the only reason he is still there not out of loyalty, that doesn't exist in politics. The reason he was advised to give a press conference about his actions, which had him floundering from questions, in something akin to Prince Andrew. It was unprecedented, the guy is NOT an elected politician nor accountable to the electorate and was no more fitting, than having a civil servant speak directly to the press to apologise for their actions. All part of a strategy to hang him up to dry and deflect as long as possible from the main issues.

    The crisis is far from being over, it would have been a diifficult task for any government given there was no pre-planned strategy to tackle such a pandemic for any to implement. I will therefore reserve my anger to those who are directly responsible for the protection of public health, if it becomes any worse, as well, and more importantly, those who are responsible for its beginning in China. About which I note in contrast, there is silence from the very same people!

  6. #66
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    nhytgbvfeco2, just read the damn thing before continuing with your daft obsession.

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15919719

    How you cannot get that my comment was accurate at time of writing, and situation changed only because the FT amended article in light of further data, obtained later, is beyond pathetic now.
    Then update your OP to reflect that. Literally just change it to say "one of the highest in the world" and you're done. I'm not asking you to donate a kidney here. If the article's authors felt compelled to update it, why can't you? Or heck, if you're so insistant on continuing to make the, objectively false, claim that the death rate is the highest in the world then at the very least update the linked article to be one of the ones you've provided on page 2 which refer to the outdated data showing that it was, so that your own link doesn't directly contradict your OP.
    You also continue to fail to address the quality (or lack thereof) of the source you've used.
    Last edited by nhytgbvfeco2; May 30, 2020 at 08:30 AM.


  7. #67

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Then update your OP to reflect that. Literally just change it to say "one of the highest in the world" and you're done. I'm not asking you to donate a kidney here. If the article's authors felt compelled to update it, why can't you? Or heck, if you're so insistant on continuing to make the, objectively false, claim that the death rate is the highest in the world then at the very least update the linked article to be one of the ones you've provided on page 2 which refer to the outdated data showing that it was, so that your own link doesn't directly contradict your OP.
    You also continue to fail to address the quality (or lack thereof) of the source you've used.
    I am not going to respond to your obsessive nonsense.


    It's not as if that one point, perfectly correct at time of writing, is the main thrust of the several arguments posted on this thread.

    The purpose of the thread has been made abundantly clear by a third party.
    Last edited by mongrel; May 30, 2020 at 08:38 AM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  8. #68
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    I see you are following the angry mob, swept up by the media. Have you acquired a burning torch yet or placard? Yes it is everything to do about that. It is about why the government were so slow to react at the start of the outbreak. Why sporting events like football and horse racing were not cancelled. Why we had a government adviser, who professed to be a scientist, sating publicly that gatherings at outdoor sporting events were unlikely to spread the virus. That instead, the main transmission was amongst family and friends indoors. Why we had a policy of so called "Herd Protection" based on no scientific evidence on how this disease spread. On why testing kits manufactured in the UK were shipped to Germany and yet the Country had insufficient to even begin testing health care workers. Why there was insufficient personal protection equipment and elderly patients were allowed to leave hospital to return to care homes largely untested!! I could go on and on.

    Yet, the media storm centres on a single man who is an adviser to Boris Johnson. Have you asked yourself why? Why newspapers like the Mail, Express and Sun were so indignant about his journey to take his artistic son as near home, as far as possible away from the epicentre of London. Why we have had days and days of the same headlines. But why good journalistic criticism of government strategy has been so lacking. The Left especially are so easily led by their own blind prejudice, branding him a “Populist”, a label that attracts vitriol from many both on the Left and the Centre of British politics.

    I genuinely feel sorry for the guy, he is derided and criticised in equal measure, because he has been made into a scapegoat. Even had a cut out of his face on the cover of the Daily Star paper out of mockery. A victim of his own success and alienation to the establishment. A good and easy target for those who resented his approach on Brexit. What could be a better diversion from the government's list of errors which have undoubtedly cost lives. It is the only reason he is still there not out of loyalty, that doesn't exist in politics. The reason he was advised to give a press conference about his actions, which had him floundering from questions, in something akin to Prince Andrew. It was unprecedented, the guy is NOT an elected politician nor accountable to the electorate and was no more fitting, than having a civil servant speak directly to the press to apologise for their actions. All part of a strategy to hang him up to dry and deflect as long as possible from the main issues.

    The crisis is far from being over, it would have been a diifficult task for any government given there was no pre-planned strategy to tackle such a pandemic for any to implement. I will therefore reserve my anger to those who are directly responsible for the protection of public health, if it becomes any worse, as well, and more importantly, those who are responsible for its beginning in China. About which I note in contrast, there is silence from the very same people!
    Thank you. I always wanted to be part of an angry mob. But no, he's not being scapegoated by anyone. As an advisor to the PM he's one of the primary responsible ones for the current situation. He also seems involved in some shady dealings by a shady pharmaceutical company that steals money from the NHS. You know. The one they have old people run around and collect money for.
    And he's single-handedly dismantled of the last bit of trust people had towards the current government. His actions and that of his boss are not to be seen separate. And with all that he has he's one of the last people in the world in need of, never mind deserving of your pity.

    As for the reason why he traveled to Barnard castle, that has likely nothing to do with his son. See my earlier post about this.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; May 30, 2020 at 11:07 AM.
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  9. #69
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Thank you. I always wanted to be part of an angry mob. But no, he's not being scapegoated by anyone. As an advisor to the PM he's one of the primary responsible ones for the current situation. His actions and that of his boss are not to be seen separate. And with all that he has he's one of the last people in the world in need of, never mind deserving of your pity.
    He is a political adviser not a medical one. His role is minor, if anything to coordinating the response to tackling Coronavirus. Did he do something wrong, hell yes. But the whole thing wrong with the government's handling of the crisis, is far greater than any blunder Dominic Cummings made.

    Contrary to what daft folk are saying, people didn't isolate themselves just because the PM advised them to. And that the fact that, if one of his principle advisers did not abide by it, they wouldn't do it again, isn't right. They did so because British people have a high degree of civic duty and do you know what, they didn't want to catch this nasty virus, whatever anyone told them what to do, because we don’t blindly trust what those in authority tell us. It is the same reason that there is going to be so much trouble next week, getting kids back to school or employees back to work. People aren't stupid, they know the risks remain very high indeed.

    He also seems involved in some shady dealings by a shady pharmaceutical company that steals money from the NHS. You know.
    Look it up and find, just how much influence pharmaceutical companies have around the world. It is the reason that medical research is always skewed to devloping new drug treatments instead of alternative approaches. It is the reason there is so much emphasis now being placed on developing a vaccine, when it isn't the direction that will be effective against any form of coronavirus, let alone this one.

    Domminic Cummings and what he did back in March, is a complete side show to distract the public from questioning why more serious questions are not being asked by the media. Those press conferances are pathetic, even Alastair Campbell says as much. The only probing questions I've heard, have been about Cummings, and I haven't heard a single comment about why we don't have a UK wide strategy, despite this being a national emergency.
    Last edited by caratacus; May 30, 2020 at 01:27 PM.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Ill just park this here...Best description of modern Britain there is.

    https://twitter.com/ProfAFinlayson/s...180992/photo/1
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  11. #71
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Yes I do agree that applies to many people in Britain
    Rep me and I'll rep you back. (IF YOU LEAVE YOUR NAME!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Strider View Post
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  12. #72
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Thank you for making an effort. 38000 is the certificated figure. THe ONS figure of around 60,000 covers excess deaths, which would include people who have died as an indirect cause of the virus.


    However the thread is not about comparing deaths , there is a thread for that already it's about Boris and his approach to the whole epidemic. It is attracting massive fury and mockery from the public.

    When restrictions were first put in place we were told they would not be relaxed until infection rates stabilised. Yet after the Cummings scandal it is becoming increasing apparent that Boris is loosening control to appease an angry poplace. Scientists says 8,000 daily coronavirus infections makes relaxing restrictions too risky but here he is doing it.
    Yes, there are "excess deaths" which aren't attributable to the corona-pandemic, but the same happens in every country where the health care system approaches capacity limits. If we were to take a closer look at Italy, France and Spain, for example, it would look similar. Maybe you have an overly critical and overly focused stance with regard to that.
    Last edited by swabian; May 30, 2020 at 04:16 PM.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Yes, there are "excess deaths" which aren't attributable to the corona-pandemic, but the same happens in every country where the health care system approaches capacity limits. If we were to take a closer look at Italy, France and Spain, for example, it would look similar. Maybe you have an overly critical and overly focused stance with regard to that.
    I'm not over critical, I can safetly say that my criticism of Boris is the majority view,by a wide margin, two thirds of people want Cummings to go (see link below). It's not just about the bodies, it's also the blatent lies, the cronyism (which they got away with with Brexit and before), and the normalisation of what was a unspoken rule, that there is one law for the elite and another, more punitive law for everyone else. All trust in what we were told was a science -based approach to lockdown is broken. Talk is now of an inevitable second wave.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ings-should-go


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...top-scientists
    Last edited by mongrel; May 30, 2020 at 07:45 PM.
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  14. #74

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    The fact that this thread was so poorly researched before you went off on your tangent is unsurprising. Good job not even bothering to read the research for your own thread. 0/10

  15. #75

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by tgoodenow View Post
    The fact that this thread was so poorly researched before you went off on your tangent is unsurprising. Good job not even bothering to read the research for your own thread. 0/10
    Now this takes over as worst post on this thread. That takes some talent. Another person who could not read the bottom of an article (ironically not bothering to read research) and note that the article was amended since posting. I'd deploy the usual Picard facepalm but can't be bothered such is the level of foolishness.WIll withdraw his post if you have proof that I own a TARDIS, Delorean or HG Wells type time machine.

    As the FT article says

    This article has been amended to take into account a one-off revision to Spanish data on Thursday. This meant the UK now has the second-highest death rate from coronavirus after Spain rather than the highest rate as originally reported
    It also says:
    Until Thursday, the UK had a higher rate of death than in any country for which high-quality data exist. How did you miss that? Poor research perhaps?
    Let me explain this as I would to a child. If I say in a post that Elvis is dead and the next day Elvis is discovered alive, chatting with Lord Lucan in a Scunthorpe pub, that doesn't suggest that the post was poorly researched, because those were the known facts at the time and any reasonable person would accept them as such. The OP reflected the FT article published at the time of writing and the headlines of several UK newspapers, which remain unamended (links provided).

    So instead of the fake outrage, you can inform the forum, putting aside the 13 words which were subsequently rendered obsolete in a future edition of the FT article, you can explain which part of the OP was 'poorly reasearched'.

    - 37,460 Britons are confirmed to have died from Coronavirus the highest toll in Europe.

    - 59,537 excess deaths, at a higher rate of death than in any country at the time of writing.


    - It's all down to a privileged political class was unpreprared, complacent and incompetent.

    - The inability to contain the virus necessitated rigid lockdown, with rules drafted in part by Boris's senior aide Dominic Cummings.

    -Iit was revealed that during the lockdown Cummings and his wife and son both suffering symptoms of Covid-19, drove 400km north to his parents’ farm because he feared he couldn’t look after his son.

    -it then emerged he had driven to a Barnard Castle, a local beauty spot with the family during the lockdown.
    - This flouting of the social distancing rules have brought a storm of criticism, with a compelling case that there was one rule for the elite and one rule for the rest of the country.

    -Instead of referring the matter to the Cabinet Secretary, Cumming's boss, on Sunday Boris decided to face the press, defending his Cummings ations as perfectly reasonable.

    -The press didn't buy it so we wheeled out Cummings on Monday to explain the story from his side.
    -He gave us 11/2 hours of plain including the excuse that he drove 30 miles to Barnard Castle whilst recovering from the effects of the virus , to test his eyesight ( arguably in itself , this story was true, it's a traffic violation).

    -Boris has continued to waste political capital on defending this unelected official ever since.

    -Millions of people are making sacrifices, both financial and personal in order to get the country back on its feet. Many have died doing so.So it is right that they expect those rules to be followed by everybody,for the common good.

    -Boris has now made clear that there is one law for the elite and one for everyone else and that this one man is more important to him than the wellbeing of the nation
    -.The result seems to be the effective end of the lockdown as the peasants decide to ignore laws that were so publicy flouted by Cummings with visible support from our PM. -The impending trace and track system, woefully late relies on public cooperation. I wouldn't put money on that happening until the Cummings issue is resolved.
    -England is now a laughing stock.



    I'll give you 24 hours to refute any part of the above apart from the last point, which is subjective, or I will presume that you accept that your post was indeed foolish.

    Rant over.

    It looks as if Boris's pet has been neutered. Cummings has been banned from making public statements or blog posts, sources say.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...mings-22114537
    Last edited by mongrel; May 31, 2020 at 04:26 AM.
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  16. #76
    Cookiegod's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Yes, there are "excess deaths" which aren't attributable to the corona-pandemic, but the same happens in every country where the health care system approaches capacity limits. If we were to take a closer look at Italy, France and Spain, for example, it would look similar. Maybe you have an overly critical and overly focused stance with regard to that.
    Yes, it does look similar in Spain and Italy. It is not possible to determine the exact death toll just like that. However, those countries do not arbitrarily delete deaths from their statistics as the British government does.
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  17. #77
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    Default Move on please

    A collection of great quotes by great men:
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Nixon, 25 August 1973
    And now we must move on from Watergate to the business of the people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Clinton, 17 August 1998
    Our country has been distracted by this matter for too long [->Monica Lewinsky affair] and I take my responsibility for my part in all of this [no dude, it's not like you were statutory raped by her - and yet you continued to ruin her life],” he said. “That is all I can do. Now is the time — in fact, it is past time — to move on... And so tonight I ask you to turn away from the spectacle of the past seven months, to repair the fabric of our national discourse, and to return our attention to all the challenges and all the promise of the next American century.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Blair, 4 March 2004
    No decision I have ever made in politics has been as divisive as the decision to go to war to in Iraq. It remains deeply divisive today. I know a large part of the public want to move on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Johnson, 27 May 2020
    It is now time to move on… the country wants to move on.
    There is hope yet.
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  18. #78
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Re-opened. Please try to make your posts impersonal and avoid posting in bad faith, as per the rules of the mudpit
    Last edited by alhoon; June 01, 2020 at 06:57 PM.
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  19. #79

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    An overdue report into the disproportionate number of BAME ( hate that term) deaths from COVID-19 has been delayed again. A Whitehall source gave the flimsiest excuses,because it might coincide with riots in a foreign country, which can only imply that black people would do the same in the UK. The Department of Health etc. said they weren't ready yet. The latter is more believable, I hope that community give the Tories a spanking for using a racist dogwhistle as an excuse for Government tardiness.


    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...death-11998897
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  20. #80
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Yeah, you know I’m just not quite convinced you’ve provided enough information to prove the thesis of this post valid
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