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Thread: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

  1. #41

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    So you admit you’re not arguing from any sort of numbers or statistics standpoint but purely one of emotion, namely anger, and are lashing out that the “headlines” you cited are false? I mean it’s fair to be angry, but for the most part I don’t think the corona epidemic response in the UK was that different from the rest of the world. Frankly, it seems like you hate the government for some reasons that are valid and are attempting to use some fake news and misinformation to strengthen your point. Yes, UK could’ve had a stronger response to Corona but the same applies for most nations in the west and you have little data to back up your point that It has been among the worst responses in the entire world.

    i live in NY which has been by far the worst in terms of corona numbers in my entire country but I’m not going to and moan and scream that it’s Andrew Cuomo’s fault when his response was not very out of line with the rest of the country. Many factors have made countries and in my case regions/states more or less susceptible to the virus, and to cite basic death totals (false ones at that) do little to support your thesis.

    Im just trying to get you to amend your claims in the OP because doing so rather than blatantly providing fake news will actually strengthen your argument rather than less it. I’d have been more likely to accept your views had you not provided a propagandistic OP

    Still can't take your whinings seriously.

    The numbers of UK dead are not in dispute. What part of this are you finding difficult?

    The fact that you may be complacent about America becoming the world's plague pit ( tempted to say racist plague pit, but another thread could cover those events) is not relevant to the debate happening in the UK right now, that is whether this country is run by an incompetent unelected bureaucrat or the workshy clown who calls himself Prime Minister.

    Talking of which,quoting the Guardian:

    'Government advisers have voiced unease over the decision to lift England’s lockdown while thousands of people a day are still becoming infected with the coronavirus, warning that loosening restrictions could easily lead to a second wave.'

    "There are still 8,000 new infections every day in England without counting those in hospitals and care homes, Edmunds said. “If you look at it internationally, it’s a very high level of incidence.” World Health Organization statistics suggest it is the fifth highest in the world.

    “The issue is, clearly there’s a need to try and get the economy restarted and people back to their jobs and so on, and also there’s a social and a mental health need to allow people to meet with their friends and families,”

    'I think many of us would prefer to see the incidence driven down to lower levels because that then means that we have fewer cases occurring before we relax the measures.'

    My fear is that with the public being contemptuous of government in light of recent events, future pleas to maintain social distancing may fall on deaf ears.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e_iOSApp_Other
    Last edited by mongrel; May 29, 2020 at 07:01 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  2. #42
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    The numbers of UK dead are not in dispute. What part of this are you finding difficult?
    The part where you claim its deaths are worse than the rest of the entire world, or is due to a worse response than the rest of the world, when your evidence for such has been debunked as only studying 19 selected countries with dissimilar amounts of migrants to and from the country and the fact that the UK didn't really lockdown at a time much different from when the rest of the world did.

    The fact that you may be complacent about America becoming the world's plague pit ( tempted to say racist plague pit, but another thread could cover those events)
    Lol way to jump off track and toss in an America jab. Most have praised the effort Cuomo has gone through to prevent the outbreak here yet still we are doing far worse than the rest of the country which has had less stringent measures because of factors beyond the state's control. Despite having bad numbers Cuomo hasn't really done anything wrong in responding to Corona. I think you just hate the Conservative Party and are grasping at straws to blame them for this perceived terrible state the country is in, and lashing out when its proven that your OP which you STILL HAVEN'T AMENDED, is based on information claiming the UK has the highest Corona deathrate based on a study of 19 countries that found it to be #2. Then you posted another article claiming it to be another reference confirming your claims when really it just cited the first but with less up to date information, then posted 3 more that all also cite the original FT article or in the case of the Independent article show the UK behind the US and Brazil.

    You're not going to convince people by reading and re-posting headlines that agree with your biased worldview but not bothering to look at the information contained within them. Lashing out with attacks and quick little barbs at people doesn't help you win an argument. It's much the same tactics used by Donald Trump in fact. While I want to believe your thesis that Johnson is the worst PM since Lord North your poor tactics and blatant refusal to fix proven false information makes me think your argument is made with ulterior motives and question if listening to you would make me a victim of "fake news". Perhaps you choose to use these tactics employed so often by Donald Trump because you're a fan of his politics?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Strider View Post
    Oh, and this is false. As a white person, I can say that it's not possible to be racist to a white person.
    Congratulations, you just lowered my IQ by 10 points.

  3. #43
    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    ...whether this country is run by an incompetent unelected bureaucrat...
    I'm wondering how efficient the UK would be if we had to elect everybody in the public service. I've always wanted to get rid of nurse Rosie at the hospital in Basingstoke. She was not nice with that thermometer.

    ggggtotalwarrior seems to be mistaking your casual and technically inaccurate reporting of numbers, for your point being wrong. But in fact, the numbers are so bad that you could list an accuracy level of +/- 70% and your point would still be valid. But then ggggtotalwarrior has also prepared for having this pointed out by just calling you a cry baby. *shrug*


    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    You're not going to convince people by reading and re-posting headlines that agree with your biased worldview but not bothering to look at the information contained within them.
    Friend. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but people don't debate on the internet to convince anyone of anything. They debate to reinforce their own viewpoint. The number of people who have changed their opinion on something based on an internet debate since 1973 is 3. And one of those was someone who was only devil's advocating anyway.

    Rather than sitting there pointing out a technical flaw in the evidence provided, that doesn't actually change the validity of the point made, address the point - that lots of people have died unnecessarily because of poor management.
    Last edited by antaeus; May 29, 2020 at 07:14 PM. Reason: I should probably actually contribute to the discussion
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  4. #44
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Ahhh so then its more of an outlet for people to cry about things. Then when someone disagrees, you can personally attack them while also claiming victimhood to personal attacks. I understand the internet much better now, thank you for your service. o7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrZanyGaming View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Strider View Post
    Oh, and this is false. As a white person, I can say that it's not possible to be racist to a white person.
    Congratulations, you just lowered my IQ by 10 points.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    Ahhh so then its more of an outlet for people to cry about things. Then when someone disagrees, you can personally attack them while also claiming victimhood to personal attacks. I understand the internet much better now, thank you for your service. o7
    60,000 excess British deaths, arguably due to incompetence, and this is the best you can say , for real? I understand some Americans have issues with people breathing, but still.......

    Quite amusing that you presume that around 60K dead is my worldview and not, as in real life, derived from published ONS figues.

    @antaeus To be fair , it's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of millions of people across all political spectrums.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9532471.html

    I have seen an alternate point of view here and there, but they tend to be either based on conspiracy theory (Soros, 5G) or of the shut up and move on for Brexit variety.
    Last edited by mongrel; May 29, 2020 at 08:31 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  6. #46

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    60,000 excess British deaths, arguably due to incompetence, and this is the best you can say , for real?
    How many of those were due to the fact your (precious, precious) NHS was overwhelmed and incapable of providing for additional patients requiring hospitalization? Because that is really the only vector by which your (precious, precious) government could justify a higher than (whatever) average death toll. Diseases exist and people die, what's your argument?

    I understand some Americans have issues with people breathing, but still.......
    Only if they don't have insurance. Or not. Or it's clear you have absolutely no idea how healthcare works in this country beyond whatever the MSM propoganda machine has fed you and you *big sippp* it all up uncritically. But yah blast America when it makes the People's Republic of Britain look good, that's a very convincing argument.

    Quite amusing that you presume that around 60K dead is my worldview and not, as in real life, derived from published ONS figues.
    Then why would you say it was in literally your same, breathless post?

    Scared about the 'rona? Stay inside. Ascending to Super Karen status (in your opinion/political view) in order to control the behaviors of those Not Gifted Enough (tm) to comment just exposes your ideology as leftist authoritarian. Of course to the unbiased observer, your position has been leftist authoritarian for the better part of a decade.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    How many of those were due to the fact your (precious, precious) NHS was overwhelmed and incapable of providing for additional patients requiring hospitalization? Because that is really the only vector by which your (precious, precious) government could justify a higher than (whatever) average death toll. Diseases exist and people die, what's your argument? .
    As far as is known none or very few. The excess capacity Boris built belatedly and in some haste , was underused and is now being wound down. I'm guessing that the many thousands of Brits hospitalised by the virus are content that they are not facing massive bills for their treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Only if they don't have insurance. Or not. Or it's clear you have absolutely no idea how healthcare works in this country beyond whatever the MSM propoganda machine has fed you and you *big sippp* it all up uncritically. But yah blast America when it makes the People's Republic of Britain look good, that's a very convincing argument.
    You missed the reference. It's an issue for another thread, of course.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Then why would you say it was in literally your same, breathless post?

    Scared about the 'rona? Stay inside. Ascending to Super Karen status (in your opinion/political view) in order to control the behaviors of those Not Gifted Enough (tm) to comment just exposes your ideology as leftist authoritarian. Of course to the unbiased observer, your position has been leftist authoritarian for the better part of a decade.
    This bollocks makes no sense beyond a lunatic twitter feed, the issue is about Boris's fitness for office and nothing else. How that relates to ancient posts made on this forum by anyone is beyond me. But as I have commented in earlier posts American political discourse is bust, being a Republican now is now like being in a Jonestown -like cult.

    The other point is, as you clearly have not been able to keep up, is that contempt for bull has led to people not fearing viral contamination, leaving people at risk of needless infection or death. Being an actual human being rather than a MAGA cultist, I'd rather people do not die an agonising death. And I don't don't blame them for rebelling, as the government has demonstrated on national TV a contempt for the sacrifice of ordinary people and that there is one law for the elite and one for everyone else.
    Last edited by mongrel; May 29, 2020 at 09:13 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  8. #48
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    You know you have a lot of good points but I feel it would have a lot more power if you fixed your OP to not have false information.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrZanyGaming View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Strider View Post
    Oh, and this is false. As a white person, I can say that it's not possible to be racist to a white person.
    Congratulations, you just lowered my IQ by 10 points.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    As far as is known none or very few. The excess capacity Boris built belatedly and in some haste , was underused and is now being wound down. I'm guessing that the many thousands of Brits hospitalised by the virus are content that they are not facing massive bills for their treatment.
    So the victim count is minimal by your own admission, and the surviving Brits are happy to pay their 45% income tax to support "muh free healthcare." Fine.


    You missed the reference. It's an issue for another thread, of course.
    Lol what? I am on the edge of my seat, giddy, as to how you contort your argument to include this.

    This bollocks makes no sense beyond a lunatic twitter feed, the issue is about Boris's fitness for office and nothing else. How that relates to ancient posts made on this forum by anyone is beyond me. But as I have commented in earlier posts American political discourse is bust, being a Republican now is now like being in a Jonestown -like cult.
    So but for your admitted participation on twitter we would be subjected to more reasoned arguments? I conditionally agree. Here I am baby, a conservative completely unaffiliated with twitter, or as you call it Jonestown, to refute you and your 'rona breathless panic.

    I chose to ignore the rest of your post because it was a pathetic attempt at trolling, containing multiple personal references and not substantive debate at all.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    You know you have a lot of good points but I feel it would have a lot more power if you fixed your OP to not have false information.
    With due respect, it's not false information, some of it was rendered obsolete with a late (and unforeseen ) declaration of Spanish casualties. The number of UK dead at the time hasn't changed and will indeed have increased since then.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  11. #51
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Well the whole point of “in the world” actually only being 19 countries matters quite a bit does it not? Engaging in the willful spread of disinformation is bad when conservatives do it so should it not be something where the left holds itself to a higher standard? You can’t actually convince people who are uninformed on a topic when you willfully provide false information. You’re fudging the numbers to push a pre-determined narrative in your head. If I hypothetically liked Johnson and went in search for evidence to support my pre-determined idea he is a great PM I could probably find some article headlines that fudge the truth slightly to support my argument too, and you’d be screaming bloody murder at it.

    The only reason I can see you refusing to change the OP is because the false claims highlighted in it serve to support your argument better than reality does. It’s not a big ask for you to just add “second” and “of 19 countries” to the sentence for the sake of truthfulness
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrZanyGaming View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Strider View Post
    Oh, and this is false. As a white person, I can say that it's not possible to be racist to a white person.
    Congratulations, you just lowered my IQ by 10 points.

  12. #52

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    The excess capacity Boris built belatedly and in some haste , was underused and is now being wound down.
    To anyone just now entering this thread, this is all you needed.

    You missed the reference. It's an issue for another thread, of course.
    So, irrelevant to your argument except to expose that BLM hasn't adhered to social distancing recommendations due to rioting and as a result "PeoPle Are LiTerAllY DyInG!111!1!" I am curious then that by your estimate, how many poor victims has BLM subjected to DEATH by exposure to Covid since they refused to adhere to social distancing then they rioted?

    This bollocks makes no sense beyond a lunatic twitter feed, the issue is about Boris's fitness for office and nothing else. How that relates to ancient posts made on this forum by anyone is beyond me. But as I have commented in earlier posts American political discourse is bust, being a Republican now is now like being in a Jonestown -like cult.
    You're the one obsessed with the death toll, based on the above, enlighten me.

    The other point is, as you clearly have not been able to keep up
    That proves it. (?)
    is that contempt for bull has led to people not fearing viral contamination, leaving people at risk of needless infection or death. Being an actual human being rather than a MAGA cultist, I'd rather people do not die an agonising death. And I don't don't blame them for rebelling, as the government has demonstrated on national TV a contempt for the sacrifice of ordinary people and that there is one law for the elite and one for everyone else.
    Typical. When all else fails, orange man bad. Yawn.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    So the victim count is minimal by your own admission, and the surviving Brits are happy to pay their 45% income tax to support "muh free healthcare." Fine.
    The victim count is around 60,000 do keep up. I said few, if any, afaik related to availability of beds.People on minimum wage pay buggerall tax, most pay at 20%, 45% is for the rich , at £150,000 per year, that's if they don't find some tax vehicle to avoid or evade paying it. A child can tell you that income tax pays for more than healthcare.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Lol what? I am on the edge of my seat, giddy, as to how you contort your argument to include this.
    Laughing at what appears to be the murder of an American citizen in broad daylight. I feel a thread coming on.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    So but for your admitted participation on twitter we would be subjected to more reasoned arguments? I conditionally agree. Here I am baby, a conservative completely unaffiliated with twitter, or as you call it Jonestown, to refute you and your 'rona breathless panic.

    I chose to ignore the rest of your post because it was a pathetic attempt at trolling, containing multiple personal references and not substantive debate at all.
    Ignoring the fact that a substantial part of the UK is not happy with being lied to. I suppose like contemporary Republicans they should swallow bull like the peasants they are.
    Last edited by mongrel; May 29, 2020 at 09:49 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  14. #54

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    ^ big mad (argument)
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; May 29, 2020 at 09:51 PM.

  15. #55

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    ^ big mad (argument)
    1. There is no argument that too many Britons are dead already
    2. There is no argument that the attempt by Boris to excuse Dominic Cummings blatantly ignoring guidance and law has led to a huge backlash and some considerable mockery. Prove me wrong.
    3. The Earth has a gravitational field is numerically equal to the acceleration of objects under its influence = 9.80665 m/s2
    4. The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church.






    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    the left
    Two words which disqualifies you from the argument. This is not a party political or partisan issue.I've said it before, American political discourse is broken.
    Last edited by mongrel; May 29, 2020 at 10:10 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  16. #56
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    I think there is an argument you have no idea how many people would/wouldn’t have died under different leadership. I think there is an argument you use inaccurate data to reinforce the points you are trying to argue in certain posts and double down on those claims/refuse to correct them, believing that it will allow your argument to hold greater sway over those not willing to actually look in to your sources, which you very likely yourself did not read in their entirety based on incorrect takeaways you had from them. I do think you decided to bash on American racial problems in a classic case of whataboutism fallacy so as to disregard any American that has an opinion on the subject. I also think your posts in this thread show a consistent habit of making bad faith arguments and relying on the exact tactics many on the left claim to abhor, and your excuses/revisionism would not be tolerated were the situation reversed. Frankly, as someone not exactly in love with Donald Trump I expect more from the opposition than to engage in the very same tactics then claim victim.

    Also frankly, I think Lord North is the greatest British PM to ever serve, because for all of America’s faults I’m glad to not share a country with certain individuals from our neighbor across the sea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrZanyGaming View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Strider View Post
    Oh, and this is false. As a white person, I can say that it's not possible to be racist to a white person.
    Congratulations, you just lowered my IQ by 10 points.

  17. #57
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    At what point has misinformation; deflections; false equivalences appeared in this thread- point them out now . Accusations of racism, race is not mentioned at all.

    Attacks on person? The FT has subsequently amended to take into account new information from Spain.

    The people on this forum would have worked that out having read the note at the foot of this article "This article has been amended to take into account a one-off revision to Spanish data on Thursday. This meant the UK now has the second-highest death rate from coronavirus after Spain rather than the highest rate as originally reported. This article has been modified to replace a chart linking excess deaths to lockdown dates with one linking excess deaths per million." It is also a given that these figures aren't static so it is not extraordinary to expect changes as time elapses.

    I have fantastic powers, but one of them is not predicting editorial changes. I don't own a TARDIS either. In any event the information is hardly concealed, its all out there. Nor is the impact of Boris' incompetence diminished.

    Just by way of independent reference, these are unamended reports showing the UK having the highest rate in the world. It was headlline news in Britain.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/uk-h...20-5?r=US&IR=T

    https://www.businessinsider.com/uk-h...20-5?r=US&IR=T


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9532286.html

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/115725...e-coronavirus/


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...id-19-22098657
    The most impressive part about your post is that it's still there.

    But, since it's here to stay (for now), might as well reply to it lest you actually start believing that you did in fact win something.
    Ignoring your eloquently put insults, what have you given us? Well, you've mentioned that the article was edited to reflect more accurate data. Of course, while the article may be edited to reflect actual facts, mighty Mongrel will not degrade himself by editing his post to, god forbid, reflect the facts. No no, instead when it was pointed out at first he did what any reasonable individual would do: ignore it. Then when it was pointed out again, Mongrel did the next most reasonable thing in response: complain of being flamed. Then asked if I have views on the quarantine, got an answer, and surprise surprise, ignored it, only to later complain that I do not address the quarantine. Classy.
    You do not argue in good faith, Mongrel. You ignore arguments, and then complain about the lack of them. You provide a source that does not reflect your hyperbole. You then provide additional sources.. only guess what, they lead right back to your original, heavily flawed, source.
    So let's briefly discuss your source: It's not good. Not just because it contradicts your statement, which is generally not something you want the source which you provide to do, but also because it only accounted for 19 countries. There are well over 10 times that in the world, yet you've used this to make a sweeping claim about "this world" (as opposed to other worlds, I guess?)
    Your arguments? also flawed. Not just your claim that all excess deaths are a result of Boris Johnson's actions or lack there of, as though there would have been 0 deaths had he acted differently, but also the taking of excess deaths as an accurate metric to count deaths from COVID-19. Because if it were then COVID19 has caused resurrections in Israel and South Africa, according to your source. Hopefully you've enough wit in you to understand that that is not in fact the case. Add to that your assertion that the late beginning of the lock down is such a major factor is contradicted by the presence of countries on that list that have taken little to no measures at all, such as Sweden, having substantially fewer deaths and infection per capita than the UK.

    Of course, I had already said most of this, albeit briefly, in my first post on this thread, but you've ignored it.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; May 30, 2020 at 04:21 AM. Reason: Continuity/off-topic.


  18. #58
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Well, let's look at the numbers

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    38000 deaths, population has similar size to Italy, the Brits did 4,043,686 tests, which is 300k more than the Italians did, yet they have higher death rate than Italy by now.

    They really tried hard to get it under control, i think it's just mother nature hitting hard there.

    Also Belgium is really in deep problems. They have by far the highest death rate per million.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Well, let's look at the numbers

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    38000 deaths, population has similar size to Italy, the Brits did 4,043,686 tests, which is 300k more than the Italians did, yet they have higher death rate than Italy by now.

    They really tried hard to get it under control, i think it's just mother nature hitting hard there.

    Also Belgium is really in deep problems. They have by far the highest death rate per million.

    Thank you for making an effort. 38000 is the certificated figure. THe ONS figure of around 60,000 covers excess deaths, which would include people who have died as an indirect cause of the virus.


    However the thread is not about comparing deaths , there is a thread for that already it's about Boris and his approach to the whole epidemic. It is attracting massive fury and mockery from the public.

    When restrictions were first put in place we were told they would not be relaxed until infection rates stabilised. Yet after the Cummings scandal it is becoming increasing apparent that Boris is loosening control to appease an angry poplace. Scientists says 8,000 daily coronavirus infections makes relaxing restrictions too risky but here he is doing it.






    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Ah yes, this is how a victor acts. .
    No anger, but otherwise yes.It's not as if I didn't encourage you to trap yourself in your own strawman. I could update, but because you have behaved like an arse, I'll leave it there. As I said, intelligent people can probably work out that in a world where people die every day , figures are not static and inevitably change. I will now politely ask you to stop whining and engage with the subject, or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    [ mongrel -look it up, I can be asked to take up any more space with his ramblings]
    .
    I take it that you have not read a single article about this issue and doing nothing more that chase the a strawman created by someone could not be asked to read the end of an article.

    How have I made an 'incorrect takeaway' of the national reaction to Boris expending political capital on covering his aides actions? Or that we have more excess dead than any other nation in Europe, a material fact.

    Yes I disregard you opinion and that of Ponti because your country's politics is polarised to buggery, anyone who has values different to Montgomery Burns is deeemed to be some kind of Marxist. Politics for manbabies quite frankly. The sooner your countries clown goes, the better it is for our collective sanities. I had forgotten how the quality of debate was on this forum. Thanks for the reminder.
    Last edited by mongrel; May 30, 2020 at 01:44 AM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  20. #60
    Cookiegod's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Boris may well be the worst PM since Lord North

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Well, let's look at the numbers

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    38000 deaths, population has similar size to Italy, the Brits did 4,043,686 tests, which is 300k more than the Italians did, yet they have higher death rate than Italy by now.

    They really tried hard to get it under control, i think it's just mother nature hitting hard there.

    Also Belgium is really in deep problems. They have by far the highest death rate per million.
    I actually already adressed the numbers, but ok, let's do it again and in greater detail:
    Boris' government fakes the numbers as much as they can. You can see it in the death tolls, where people in the nursing homes are simply discarded off the statistics, and you can see it in the testing numbers, where the actual and the pretend testing numbers diverge vastly, as SEVERAL MECHANISMS are implemented to inflate the numbers with clear malicious intent.
    For one, mailed tests are included in the statistics, even though those might never have been used or processed. Secondly, if you have several samples taken from one patient in one go (e.g. a nasal and a saliva test), which is very frequent, then both of them are counted as individual tests.
    The result you can see in this graph which I have already posted:


    But even if one's to take those numbers at face value, which no one should, then the outcome is still BELOW those for Italy, which, again, does not employ these mechanisms.
    So here's a screenshot from the our world in data project for your convenience:


    An organisation that does its job well does not have to fake his numbers. There are few people handling it worse than Boris. Macron is one of them, and there's this great vid of him getting destroyed by nurses at a hospital. But at the very least I didn't see him try and fake the numbers. The epidemic in France was somewhat unexpected and unavoidable, given its geographical position next to Italy. He did not go with the herd immunity BS like Boris did. He did not have a channel separating his country from the rest of the world. He did not have the chances Boris did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    So the victim count is minimal by your own admission, and the surviving Brits are happy to pay their 45% income tax to support "muh free healthcare." Fine.
    First of all, only 22% of the British public spending in 2020 (yes, this pandemic year) are set to go into the health services. So your deliberate framing of it as if the NHS was the reason for this is wrong already. In fact the whole of the British government operates very cost inefficiently. Imagine my shock that this then also applies to the NHS. *gasp*

    Because yes, you're right: It costs way too much.

    Let's then take a look at what singles the UK out in Europe. Oh, that's right. It just so happens to be the most neoliberal large country in Europe, which also happens to be the one with the worst performing health care system. And just like with the US of A, this neoliberalism has visibly not made the government leaner in any way, spending is through the roof, it's just that the people get less out of it.

    So let's look at one of the reasons why the NHS costs so much. I'll take as an example one random pharmaceutical company operating from a town named Barnard Castle, Teesdale, in the north of England: GlaxoSmithKline.
    In 2012 GlaxoSmithKline were fined $3 billion for fraud, overcharging and making false claims about medicines in the USA. In 2016, GlaxoSmithKline were fined £37.6 million in the UK for bribing companies not to produce generic copies of their out of patent drugs, thus overcharging the NHS.

    You won't be surprised that no one was prosecuted for organising these shady deals. You'll probably also not be surprised that the fines, especially the British one, were low enough for the company to still profit massively from the crimes.

    One would expect a morally upright politician to be somewhat miffed by his country being taken for a ride, not join in on it.
    If Barnard Castle, the town I mentioned earlier, sounds familiar to you, it's probably due to the scandal recently.
    People mostly got mad at Downing street for the more obvious reasons. If Boris and his guys don't give a , why should the rest stay at home?!
    I'll quote someone on twitter for this:
    As one of those involved in SPI-B, the Government advisory group on behavioural science, I can say that in a few short minutes tonight, Boris Johnson has trashed all the advice we have given on how to build trust and secure adherence to the measures necessary to control COVID-19.

    Be open and honest, we said. Trashed.
    Respect the public, we said. Trashed
    Ensure equity, so everyone is treated the same, we said. Trashed.
    Be consistent we said. Trashed.
    Make clear 'we are all in it together'. Trashed.

    It is very hard to provide scientific advice to a government which doesn't want to listen to science
    . I hope, however, that the public will read our papers (publicly available at gov.uk/government/gro…) and continue to make up for this bad government with their own good sense.
    The less obvious but even more insidious likely reason to be outraged is however this here - just two days after Cummings' visit to Barnard Castle.

    Whilst robbing the NHS in broad daylight, they have 100 year old veterans who are barely able to walk run around and try to fund it. It pisses me off so immensely and I'm just glad I don't live in the banana repu... representative monarchy that is the United Kingdom.
    From Socrates to Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected and oppressed by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM
    Cope's a shill

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