Total war Saga : Kingdoms

**Souron** · May 22, 2020, 01:13 PM

I know not a lot of people seemed to enjoy thrones of britannia but i feel that the idea behind the saga titles is brilliant and the battles from thrones in particular were a lot of fun with the larger scale of enriroments to fight in. I was wondering what you would all think about CA revisiting the Medievil 2 Kingdoms expansion to explore those settings for saga titles. i for one owuld love to see this. being properly done obviously!

and ofcourse ignoring the britannia one because it already having a saga title if not from a different period ofcourse.

Would love to hear if any of you had some cool idea for settings and time periods for the saga games.

**Dismounted Feudal Knight** · May 22, 2020, 02:26 PM

I'm not too concerned with the setting and time period of the game, and rather the mechanics. As much as it's a risk and probably beyond CA's willingness to take, saga titles strike me as the opportunity to explore truly innovative concepts and new core designs that can then be built into a more ambitious game, not a mere holdover for a 'real' entry that lands with puny force. A small scope is an opportunity for great polish, and from there, adding new twists that can be extrapolated to something larger. That's what I want to see from them, not the tweaks and turns of samey periods with a new coat of paint, or trying to subvert this by deviating from the potential of Total War's core entirely by throwing out things like World War 1. Plenty of potential in the old settings if the mechanics would only be ambitious.

**Souron** · May 22, 2020, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Imperator Majora

I'm not too concerned with the setting and time period of the game, and rather the mechanics. As much as it's a risk and probably beyond CA's willingness to take, saga titles strike me as the opportunity to explore truly innovative concepts and new core designs that can then be built into a more ambitious game, not a mere holdover for a 'real' entry that lands with puny force. A small scope is an opportunity for great polish, and from there, adding new twists that can be extrapolated to something larger. That's what I want to see from them, not the tweaks and turns of samey periods with a new coat of paint, or trying to subvert this by deviating from the potential of Total War's core entirely by throwing out things like World War 1. Plenty of potential in the old settings if the mechanics would only be ambitious.

I see what you are saying in this for sure. it would be actually really interesting to see how they would go about a world waar style game to be honest. the core of combat i feel wopuld have to be quite drastically changed to suit it for sure. but impossable? i think not!

**Dismounted Feudal Knight** · May 22, 2020, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Souron

I see what you are saying in this for sure. it would be actually really interesting to see how they would go about a world waar style game to be honest. the core of combat i feel wopuld have to be quite drastically changed to suit it for sure. but impossable? i think not!

I'm biased, being disinterested completely in gunpowder era content; I do think it's the sort of thing that would require almost a spinoff series completely to do justice and allow TW to go back to its roots a bit with other titles.

But, I guess that's an argument for precisely what I'd like to see, since a saga title would certainly be an opportunity to experiment with much more modern warfare.

**Souron** · May 22, 2020, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Imperator Majora

I'm biased, being disinterested completely in gunpowder era content; I do think it's the sort of thing that would require almost a spinoff series completely to do justice and allow TW to go back to its roots a bit with other titles.

But, I guess that's an argument for precisely what I'd like to see, since a saga title would certainly be an opportunity to experiment with much more modern warfare.

i would have to aggree, i do think the saga section is the best place for CA to be a bit creative in. Although after the perception they received from thrones i worry that this will stop them taking risks with it.

**Dismounted Feudal Knight** · May 22, 2020, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Souron

i would have to aggree, i do think the saga section is the best place for CA to be a bit creative in. Although after the perception they received from thrones i worry that this will stop them taking risks with it.

This wouldn't be a great takeaway; ToB's primary criticism was being boring and offering little, certainly as far as creativity and content goes. They took virtually no risks, and that, I'd say, is the main reason it failed. Too little to distinguish it as a title.

**Souron** · May 22, 2020, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Imperator Majora

This wouldn't be a great takeaway; ToB's primary criticism was being boring and offering little, certainly as far as creativity and content goes. They took virtually no risks, and that, I'd say, is the main reason it failed. Too little to distinguish it as a title.

very true. well lets keep our fingers crossed for some out of the box thinking on this one.

**Daruwind** · May 23, 2020, 12:37 AM

On other hand ToB is best introductionary title in series. Anybody new, who is not sure if TW is for him and how much money want to invest, this is perfect title for. Easier to understand, play. No agent spam, ambushes, battles are easy to learn as unit variety is not skyrocketing...no many DLC to waste money.

Yeah, I would prefer ToB to be expansion for Attila, improving performance and such but it is not and with late updates the ToB is quite playable.

Other possible ideas for Sagas
-American Civil War (just two sides of story, not enough for full TW, might work here)
-Pre-Columbian South America (Aztecs, Incas...)
-Alexander (because he didn´t got him in R2/Attila

)

**Dismounted Feudal Knight** · May 23, 2020, 04:45 AM

On the other, other hand, if they come from a paradox title or have any number of content driven predispositions, tob is going to quickly look incredibly flat. That thought might work for some. It'll backfire badly on others for the same reason its wider adaptation remains in the gutter, even if that's partially because of the launch time damaging the efforts of mods coming later.

To digress a bit; it was the most unpopular kingdoms expansion and certainly wouldn't be a bestseller for taste (and won't make it up the way fantasy/china in premise did), but going off being purely unique, there's potential in the americas per the kingdoms expansion that was a case in point. I prefer the other two and teutonic especially, but I find them rather unlikely to be approached in dedicated titles.

**Daruwind** · May 23, 2020, 04:57 AM

If you are coming from paradox or other serious gaming, you won´t have much problems in full title. I mean it exactly as introductionary title fow new player or new player to PC gaming.

But we will soon see how CA altered Saga formula. After ToB, they surely did some brainstorming for Troy..

**Souron** · May 23, 2020, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Daruwind

If you are coming from paradox or other serious gaming, you won´t have much problems in full title. I mean it exactly as introductionary title fow new player or new player to PC gaming.

But we will soon see how CA altered Saga formula. After ToB, they surely did some brainstorming for Troy..

you would certainly like to hope they have listened after the reception TOB received. I know for a fact i am in the minority of players who likes & mods the game but i still would love to see the saga formula live up to its potential thats for sure!

**Basileos Leandros I** · May 23, 2020, 03:44 PM

To be fair, I liked ToB - the artwork was superb, the game was solid and it had a good overall feel to it. But it was just too simplistic, it simplified TW so much that after one full campaign I didn't feel like picking up another one.

For future Sagas I would really want the same detail as in a full TW game, for campaign depth. Political system included.

**Souron** · May 23, 2020, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Basileos Leandros I

To be fair, I liked ToB - the artwork was superb, the game was solid and it had a good overall feel to it. But it was just too simplistic, it simplified TW so much that after one full campaign I didn't feel like picking up another one.

For future Sagas I would really want the same detail as in a full TW game, for campaign depth. Political system included.

I compleatly aggre with this take. For me it felt like ToB had the set up and potential to have great depth but just didnt take advantage of that set up.

**Daruwind** · May 23, 2020, 05:27 PM

oh I had fun...lot fun there.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Souron** · May 23, 2020, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Daruwind

oh I had fun...lot fun there.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

WHOA you sure did! i sense a completionist here

**Daruwind** · May 24, 2020, 03:54 AM

Actually doing achievements helped me really to enjoy the game. I had for each campaign additional set of objectives for achievements and thus was "forced" to not play in my average lazy way...coimbining with higher difficulty it was quite fun as every faction is little different. Rites or buildings..Mide and Circenn coming into mind as being totally different playstyle due to this..But this is probably fun only to somebody like me. Looking at numbers how many people complete some achievements i can understand that many play just in casual way, it is however pretty

seeing people

about ToB without actually playing it or even trying with latest updates. There is the famous review from LegendTotalWar where he loading old save, so his game is pretty

ed up as not working correctly and he describe it as bad game...I had no problems admiting there are issues but game is better than the reputation it has.....

Some of achievements i really enjoyed:
Playing as the Great Viking Army, complete the main campaign while keeping both the English and the Army happy at all times.
Playing as any of the Gaelic kingdoms, annex all surviving Gaelic factions.
Playing as any faction, complete the main campaign having turned all your enemies into vassal kingdoms.
....

**Abdülmecid I** · May 24, 2020, 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by Daruwind

AThere is the famous review from LegendTotalWar where he loading old save, so his game is pretty

ed up as not working correctly and he describe it as bad game...I had no problems admiting there are issues but game is better than the reputation it has.....

This is a bit unjust. Legend uploaded an old save file to show how radically the economy was downgraded, but he actually tested the update through several campaigns, some of which are mentioned during his review. In my opinion, where Legend really excels is through exhaustive and thorough beta-testing, where he leaves no stone unturned. Several of the issues he brings up are just the pinnacle of sloppy design. I wonder who imagined it a good idea to implement actually harmful technologies, which can easily transform the game into a tedious whack-a-mole, or to impose corruption on the gross profits of the infrastructure, without taking into consideration the maintenance cost. In my opinion, as Legend explained, there's no reason to judge opinions. They are subjective and everyone is entitled to his own. As for Creative Assembly's perspective, Throb clearly failed commercially, as the dismally low number of sales, active customers and positive reviews demonstrates.

Originally Posted by Daruwind

-Alexander (because he didn´t got him in R2/Attila

)

It's a pity that CA didn't rebrand the old Alexander: Total War game into a Saga product, according to the example of the marketing baptism of the Fall of the Samurais. I probably have a reputation here of being a grumpy whiner always condemning the post-Empire games and reminiscing about the good old days of Rome I and Medieval II, but oh my, was Alexander rushed! They only included India in the historical battles section of the game, in the majority of the campaigns, defeating the Persian Empire was humanely impossible, because their last settlement was totally inaccessible, the three barbarian factions were brown copy-pastes and, last but not least, the mini-map was literally designed in Microsoft paint. Nope, I'm not kidding!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Souron** · May 24, 2020, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I

This is a bit unjust. Legend uploaded an old save file to show how radically the economy was downgraded, but he actually tested the update through several campaigns, some of which are mentioned during his review. In my opinion, where Legend really excels is through exhaustive and thorough beta-testing, where he leaves no stone unturned. Several of the issues he brings up are just the pinnacle of sloppy design. I wonder who imagined it a good idea to implement actually harmful technologies, which can easily transform the game into a tedious whack-a-mole, or to impose corruption on the gross profits of the infrastructure, without taking into consideration the maintenance cost. In my opinion, as Legend explained, there's no reason to judge opinions. They are subjective and everyone is entitled to his own. As for Creative Assembly's perspective, Throb clearly failed commercially, as the dismally low number of sales, active customers and positive reviews demonstrates.

It's a pity that CA didn't rebrand the old Alexander: Total War game into a Saga product, according to the example of the marketing baptism of the Fall of the Samurais. I probably have a reputation here of being a grumpy whiner always condemning the post-Empire games and reminiscing about the good old days of Rome I and Medieval II, but oh my, was Alexander rushed! They only included India in the historical battles section of the game, in the majority of the campaigns, defeating the Persian Empire was humanely impossible, because their last settlement was totally inaccessible, the three barbarian factions were brown copy-pastes and, last but not least, the mini-map was literally designed in Microsoft paint. Nope, I'm not kidding!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I would have say that i aggree on the legend side of things. i wateched that video a long time ago and could see totally where he was coming from although i do also aggree that i see a lot of people bashing ToB without having any valid reasons because they havent even tried it. I hope that when my mod for ToB starts to come together in the end that most of the issues people have with it are at the very least reduced to an extent where its a semi enjoyable experiance for players.

**Daruwind** · May 25, 2020, 02:10 AM

Just for record, I like his recent work. But for testing ToB in that moment...you know that you should restart game after major updates because a lot things will be off and I would expect at least so from serious reviewer. I saw his early work on ToB and while I agree with a lot, it always sounded to me like he didn´t give ToB proper run second time and that is my issue. Definitely I aknowledge the game has issues. Problem is, very often I hear ToB opinion from people who hasn´t not even tried the game...because that is public knowledge. To me, it is similar to argument that R2/Attila/Wh(s) are baaaaad for various resons (R2

ed up during release, omiting latest DLCs and patches, Attila because it should be in R2, Wh because hero and fantasy sucks..such opinions)

But good point Abdul with Alexander!!

That was like Saga 0.5 and while I played it, it was super short and simple in terms of campaign design. I just wish that scenario to get proper game or Wars of Diadochiis, such great scenarios for R2...damn.

I´m definitely curious how will Troy unfold and what is CA plans for future. I realy hope there will be another Valve breach/hack to get us some proper numbers of owners etc.

**Souron** · May 25, 2020, 03:05 AM

Yeah for sure it is quite frustrating seeing people write it off from not proper reasons. at least take the time to try it yourself and form a proper opinion because we can all aggree it has its issues. troy will certainly be interesting but i will be honest the commander dueling i really do not like in these games. for something like WH i understand it and i know romance in 3K is supposed to be the romance theme but it just didnt feel right to me.