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Thread: [Discussion] Modding Awards

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    Default [Discussion] Modding Awards

    As interesting as the stream of VONC's or the latest constitution efforts are, I'm shifting in a different direction and approaching a matter that seems to have been lost to the ages once more. Awards, specifically modder's awards. First we added them. Then we didn't use them. Then we gave them to gig, then we stopped using them. Then we wanted to use them a while back, but I don't see them used.

    Now, personally, I'd like to use them, but I also like to use things that I find to be solid, and I find these awards to be not very solid.

    These awards are Legio 501st and the Modding Service Award.

    The former has a description repeated 3 times without change, at a very low minimum. If absolutely nothing comes of this proposal, lets at least make that less silly. But I keep that as a side note as I'd rather outright replace it. The latter I believe doesn't serve a good enough purpose on its own between Opifex, Gold 501st and then what people would give Artifex for somewhere in the equation. It feels like fluff without an identifier. What I'd like to do is:
    • Define between the levels
    • Split between being workshop participation/making tutorials and mod creation itself, resulting in two lines of awards going between bronze, silver, and gold
    • Remove the Modding Service Award and put its requirements into the above

    This is where I call it a discussion, and not a proposal. I do not have names or graphics for the two lines of award. I only know the splits and standards to suggest.

    First - Modmaking

    Bronze - Release a submod, released mod, or multiple smaller mods that are judged to be 'decent' quality and had time put into them; distinctively not reposts or tiny efforts, but things that look like they had a good bit of time put into them despite being just a few things and perhaps by a lesser known user. Plus Ultra from the Medieval 2 section would earn this in my book.
    Silver - Release a significant submod (an ex, SSHIP for Stainless Steel or MOS for Third Age), a mod with a hosted forum, or a solid collection of original smaller mods
    Gold - Release multiple mods with hosted subforums, multiple significant submods, or create many smaller works that widely influence the respective game (ie, someone making tons of mods for Rome 2 even if those mods individually are all fairly small and aren't overhauls). Distinguished by the 'physical' results on the forum, while opifex strongly considers one's legacy alongside what they've done, and allows for more ambiguous awarding.

    Second - Uh... the other thing
    Bronze - Release a tutorial, tool or resource that is unique + positive in content and/or clarity, or spend (some period) helping people out in the community sections. Off the bat I leave this award open to be given to people who've released good stuff for vanilla - perhaps its name shouldn't be bound to modding and should instead note people who do things like create nice guides and resources despite not making mods themselves.
    Silver - Release multiple of the above or have a particularly influential one-off project, and early stages of what I put in Gold.
    Gold - Long record in the workshop, being a 'community asset' for

    These are obviously not final descriptions, but an idea of where to set the bars. I'm mainly concerned with the overall viability of the two lines, their names, and their visuals for a more concise proposal, if the thoughts merit going that far.

    If looking for someone to become Artifex, I place my bar at achieving one of the respective Silvers. Bronze retains its current unused function of rewarding up-and-coming users with something to encourage them to go further, or otherwise acknowledge a notable one-off. What this is should be defined on their profiles when the awards are given. Silver notes someone either making quite a bit or making a solid one-off, and gold is a recognition for a stronger record per the defined metrics before reaching Opifex. Artifex itself I believe should be a blend of legacy - someone has a record on the site of doing their thing and doing it well - and achievement, they do have something to show for their efforts. Someone earning silver should be a serious consideration for Artifex; someone earning bronze I believe should be encouraged to do more before getting there, but making this in any way a defined rule is not the scope of this discussion or a subsequent proposal.

    The split is to acknowledge the fundamental difference between the act of being community outreach and the act of actually releasing content, which are ultimately different things with different skills. Some, of course, will overlap, perhaps strongly, but this should encourage people to see and be seen by merits on both. As far as award count, Gigantus is case in point that we're certainly not changing the practical volume on the profile of someone farming medals already. He has 2, this proposal would leave him with 2, and they would assuredly be max level anyways.

    These would be awarded mainly to up and coming current modders and recursively to active users (ie, regiven to gig, and also given to anyone else who meets what become the final standards). Promising non-citizens may be identified from candidates of these awards, and the above is not to say I'd oppose simply because they ended up with bronze, either - especially not if in combination with other things.

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    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    I am too tired to read everything, but I think removing the Modding Service Award would be a mistake. Because that award can be used to reward LM, good LM's sort of a "LM of the year".

    Opposed for now, perhaps later when I had a good night sleep with inputs from the others I might change my mind about this.
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    I always had issues with these awards, not for the idea behind them, but for the evident lack of recipients

    such awards would make more sense if we had much more active modders, and would help to differentiate the level of contributions and somewhat "customize" awards, but as of today IMO the two steps of Citizenship and Opifex are enough

    these awards aren't a problem per sé, they are just redundant
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    Araval's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    In my opinion, the bigger problem is the lack of motivation in curia to hand out these awards.

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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    We (Consul/Censors + Majora) have drawn up a list of names to nominate for these awards. Our constant stumbling block is the vagueness of the awards, and the unclear nature of the criteria for each of them. Basically, until the criteria is cleared up, it's hard for us to gauge the adequate level of contribution needed for them. Not to mention that from the original proposal it seems that these awards were initially meant to be presented by Modding Staff, not the Curia. And now that Modding Staff is defunct, the question remains if they are even necessary in their current state or if they need a complete overhaul before handing them out. If there is an overhaul, there is no point in us having handed out a bunch of medals before having clarified things. If we do decide to remove the medals or what ever, we're in a good position now as only one person even has any of them.

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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    I would not be concerned about distribution. I have an initiative to propose and distribute the receivers if the system is only functional enough to work nicely, regardless of the above list. My focus here is to address the poor assembly of the awards, on the premise that it's worth having something to distinguish modders. Perhaps, in response to flinn, part of the answer is using them in tandem with other efforts to woo modders into getting more engaged, or users into contributing more to TWC's niche of distributing knowledge.

    Leonardo is going to have to clarify bigtime before I can make sense of what his post means.

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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    I support this motion.

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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    As well as the me not being a citizen thing - I've had issues with these awards and not really got around to pushing for people to be awarded them (though there are candidates out there).

    1. - the 'estimated to have taken more than 5 hours' standard is very low for a released or published 'anything' - assuming it had any thought or testing behind it.
    2. - as the OP says it's not really clear what the progression is meant to be, if something took 10 hours was that meant to instantly be silver?
    3. - the relationship to Artifex / Opifex - if someone already had those, should they still be rewarded these if they produce new stuff meeting these requirements?

    I do like the idea in the OP about having a line of things as a reward for publishing tutorials, resources etc. I'd also wonder if rewards could be based on releasing mod content on a 'free to use' basis, to encourage sharing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    I always had issues with these awards, not for the idea behind them, but for the evident lack of recipients

    such awards would make more sense if we had much more active modders, and would help to differentiate the level of contributions and somewhat "customize" awards, but as of today IMO the two steps of Citizenship and Opifex are enough

    these awards aren't a problem per sé, they are just redundant
    Only flaw I see with restricting to that is we have a lot of Awards that apply to other areas of the site (Blogging, Gaming Service, Wiki, the Competitions) - we could equally say not to bother with those as people doing enough in those areas would qualify for citizenship/phalera.


    (I think Leonardo might be looking for ways to reward the Local Moderators that look after mods hosted forums, but aren't necessarily the mod producers )

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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator Majora View Post
    As interesting as the stream of VONC's or the latest constitution efforts are, I'm shifting in a different direction and approaching a matter that seems to have been lost to the ages once more. Awards, specifically modder's awards. First we added them. Then we didn't use them. Then we gave them to gig, then we stopped using them. Then we wanted to use them a while back, but I don't see them used.

    Now, personally, I'd like to use them, but I also like to use things that I find to be solid, and I find these awards to be not very solid.

    These awards are Legio 501st and the Modding Service Award.

    The former has a description repeated 3 times without change, at a very low minimum. If absolutely nothing comes of this proposal, lets at least make that less silly. But I keep that as a side note as I'd rather outright replace it. The latter I believe doesn't serve a good enough purpose on its own between Opifex, Gold 501st and then what people would give Artifex for somewhere in the equation. It feels like fluff without an identifier. What I'd like to do is:
    • Define between the levels
    • Split between being workshop participation/making tutorials and mod creation itself, resulting in two lines of awards going between bronze, silver, and gold
    • Remove the Modding Service Award and put its requirements into the above

    This is where I call it a discussion, and not a proposal. I do not have names or graphics for the two lines of award. I only know the splits and standards to suggest.

    First - Modmaking

    Bronze - Release a submod, released mod, or multiple smaller mods that are judged to be 'decent' quality and had time put into them; distinctively not reposts or tiny efforts, but things that look like they had a good bit of time put into them despite being just a few things and perhaps by a lesser known user. Plus Ultra from the Medieval 2 section would earn this in my book.
    Silver - Release a significant submod (an ex, SSHIP for Stainless Steel or MOS for Third Age), a mod with a hosted forum, or a solid collection of original smaller mods
    Gold - Release multiple mods with hosted subforums, multiple significant submods, or create many smaller works that widely influence the respective game (ie, someone making tons of mods for Rome 2 even if those mods individually are all fairly small and aren't overhauls). Distinguished by the 'physical' results on the forum, while opifex strongly considers one's legacy alongside what they've done, and allows for more ambiguous awarding.

    Second - Uh... the other thing
    Bronze - Release a tutorial, tool or resource that is unique + positive in content and/or clarity, or spend (some period) helping people out in the community sections. Off the bat I leave this award open to be given to people who've released good stuff for vanilla - perhaps its name shouldn't be bound to modding and should instead note people who do things like create nice guides and resources despite not making mods themselves.
    Silver - Release multiple of the above or have a particularly influential one-off project, and early stages of what I put in Gold.
    Gold - Long record in the workshop, being a 'community asset' for

    These are obviously not final descriptions, but an idea of where to set the bars. I'm mainly concerned with the overall viability of the two lines, their names, and their visuals for a more concise proposal, if the thoughts merit going that far.

    If looking for someone to become Artifex, I place my bar at achieving one of the respective Silvers. Bronze retains its current unused function of rewarding up-and-coming users with something to encourage them to go further, or otherwise acknowledge a notable one-off. What this is should be defined on their profiles when the awards are given. Silver notes someone either making quite a bit or making a solid one-off, and gold is a recognition for a stronger record per the defined metrics before reaching Opifex. Artifex itself I believe should be a blend of legacy - someone has a record on the site of doing their thing and doing it well - and achievement, they do have something to show for their efforts. Someone earning silver should be a serious consideration for Artifex; someone earning bronze I believe should be encouraged to do more before getting there, but making this in any way a defined rule is not the scope of this discussion or a subsequent proposal.

    The split is to acknowledge the fundamental difference between the act of being community outreach and the act of actually releasing content, which are ultimately different things with different skills. Some, of course, will overlap, perhaps strongly, but this should encourage people to see and be seen by merits on both. As far as award count, Gigantus is case in point that we're certainly not changing the practical volume on the profile of someone farming medals already. He has 2, this proposal would leave him with 2, and they would assuredly be max level anyways.

    These would be awarded mainly to up and coming current modders and recursively to active users (ie, regiven to gig, and also given to anyone else who meets what become the final standards). Promising non-citizens may be identified from candidates of these awards, and the above is not to say I'd oppose simply because they ended up with bronze, either - especially not if in combination with other things.
    Now, I am not tired like I was last night. However, I would like to comment this and I don't think it would be beneficial, because the Modding Service Award could be for people, like what I did (I don't want to brag, but I re-uploaded the lost modding files that CA gave the community almost 10 years ago), or reward people who have offered support for mods there the original author no longer is active (retired or are busy with RL). That kind of things could the Modding Service Award be used for.


    The Legio 501st Award is, from my understanding, about modders activity in the workshops in combination of releasing mods plus give a helping hand to beginners in modding. Anything that is beneficial to the modding community on TWC similiar to what the TWC Wiki Award is. You have the TWC Wiki Award and I wonder why do you want to get rid of the Modding Service Award when that is basically the same as the TWC Wiki Award?
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    However, I would like to comment this and I don't think it would be beneficial, because the Modding Service Award could be for people, like what I did (I don't want to brag, but I re-uploaded the lost modding files that CA gave the community almost 10 years ago), or reward people who have offered support for mods there the original author no longer is active (retired or are busy with RL). That kind of things could the Modding Service Award be used for.
    It could be, but it isn't. Firstly, nobody's been arsed to bother; I find it very difficult to see people turn around in this thread and say what it could be used for when they haven't so much as acknowledged it the entire existence it's served. Frankly, it wasn't terribly thought through in the first place (I regret not making noise in the CCT at that time, must have missed it), and this thread is the first time it's been thought about aside from one-off posts. Secondly, what you describe is not in the scope of the award per its description. What it is in scope of is the second line of awards I mentioned. Since you would not actually be creating mods but in fact doing something that adds to the community, the first line of awards is untouched in its integrity as something to specifically recognize works that are individually created and distributed. As two unique sorts of activity, they ought to receive two unique awards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    The Legio 501st Award is, from my understanding, about modders activity in the workshops
    Which is precisely what the Modding Service Award is for in the first half of its description. How are you going to distinguish, then, between the Gold of 501st, and the Modding Service Award? Just read the descriptions. The overlap is uncanny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Anything that is beneficial to the modding community on TWC similiar to what the TWC Wiki Award is. You have the TWC Wiki Award and I wonder why do you want to get rid of the Modding Service Award when that is basically the same as the TWC Wiki Award?
    I'm glad you mentioned the TWC Wiki Award. It is a case in point for what is wrong in the modding line.

    These are the awards for the wiki.

    The first, a top level award that is functionally the likes of Opifex as far as 'exceptional' contribution for the community; specifically, the wiki community. The succeeding three, a line of smaller awards that recognize people for their individual efforts and/or persistence, despite not warranting the top level.

    Despite unclear metrics (though they are internally measured by staff, thus still there), there is a clear linear progression between them. There is not any real overlap or ambiguity. They are awarded by staff, but they award your activities on the wiki.

    The Legio 501st does make clear metrics. Then it repeats them 3 times. Unless we're going to immediately give everyone gold since it's the same wording as bronze, it's fair to say one's judgement must be executed in what distinguishes gold from bronze. If you have moderately high standards for something named 'gold', that level is invariably going to have to be reconciled with the Modding Service; in spirit it is an addendum to the three levels, almost a fourth level intermediate. At its most sensible it establishes the upper boundary. What I don't like is that you now have a total of six modding related awards (to include citizenship) where multiple of them don't mean anything in relation to each other and result in undue confusion. There isn't a central internal structure to make sense of it. Thus we need open definition to make things smooth. That open definition sucks. I seek to change it and also reward two different kinds of activity.

    The forums, see, are wider in scope and contribution than the wiki. Uploading files, updating guides, updating pages, etc are all the same sort of activity on the wiki. If there was something distinctly different you did there, perhaps other awards would be justified, but there isn't. On the forum? I see a clear gap between being an actively helpful community member and being someone who releases mods for the site. Both are essential users, both may overlap, and in my opinion, both should be distinguished for what they are. Enter the two lines. They do not conflict with each other, they do not have the ambiguity of the current awards, and they would not tread on the other two existing awards, as Artifex is something of a different process (citizenship) and the other is specifically noted as exceptional (opifex) in relation to the smaller awards... just like how the wiki awards do it. If anything, it's the wiki awards that inspire what I have put here.

    But I digress, as I mainly seek to acquire names and visuals for these ideas, at which point I'll make it a proposition and we'll let the broader audience decide yea or nay more expediently.

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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Quote Originally Posted by Araval View Post
    In my opinion, the bigger problem is the lack of motivation in curia to hand out these awards.
    This. The problem is more the motivation. Even among normal site members who can propose anyone for awards now, with the proth being open.

    We submitted only 4 Artifex applications within about a year and a half, one of those was mine. Which is why I like to make the joke, 25% of all Artifex applications were by me last year.
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    This. The problem is more the motivation. Even among normal site members who can propose anyone for awards now, with the proth being open.

    We submitted only 4 Artifex applications within about a year and a half, one of those was mine. Which is why I like to make the joke, 25% of all Artifex applications were by me last year.
    Per above, I seek to address the nature of the awards; improving their structure is a step towards making people actually want to use them. It certainly doesn't help when, changes aside, the implementation is incredibly sloppy (pasted detailed descriptions for the 501st above all).

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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Silver - Release a significant submod (an ex, SSHIP for Stainless Steel or MOS for Third Age), a mod with a hosted forum, or a solid collection of original smaller mods
    You won't get people motivated to nominate someone, if you raise the bar for a silver medal or Artifex on DeI level, a mod with a hosted subforum.^^

    And there is no two kinds of modding activity in the workshop, those, who make mods, and those, who make tutorials.

    Tutorials are made by people, which have huge experience with those area of modding because they have made many mods and spent much time in this area.

    Differentiating between those two lines, mod making and tutorial making, is an artificial differentiation.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; May 22, 2020 at 07:41 AM.
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    This. The problem is more the motivation. Even among normal site members who can propose anyone for awards now, with the proth being open.

    We submitted only 4 Artifex applications within about a year and a half, one of those was mine. Which is why I like to make the joke, 25% of all Artifex applications were by me last year.
    You cannot really blame the Curia for not handing out awards that are not within its remit to bestow. Whether there is still a staff branch willing and able to handle the dispensation of these modding awards or whether they should be taken over by the Curia is a separate, though, related discussion.
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    All of the modding awards are in the remit of the curia, aren't they?

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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    So it seems a clear first step is to pass a decision to allow the Curia to grant these awards, and to clear up the requirements of it.

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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    They are already meant to be curia bestowed awards... not staff (even modding staff)

    If you find the original decision I think you'll find the info for that - it seems to have missed getting added to the constitution - or anyone really noticing it

    EDIT: Gig's nomination

    The Original Decision

    I haven't found the discussion where the exact wording/requirements came from yet.

  18. #18
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Usually tiered awards (bronze, silver, gold, platinum, emerald, diamond, chocolate) are handled by staff branches responsible for the respective area of the site and, yeah, there's no mention of these modding awards in the Constitution either, hence I thought they were still in staff remit. If they aren't and if there is no active Modding Staff available to handle them I think it is a viable solution to have them handed out by the Curia.
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    There is the discussion thread about them:

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...rd-for-Modders

    I guess it was forgotten about Footnotes, VoNCs and other relevant stuff.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; May 22, 2020 at 08:14 AM.
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  20. #20
    Flinn's Avatar Addio, Maestro!
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Quote Originally Posted by makanyane View Post
    Only flaw I see with restricting to that is we have a lot of Awards that apply to other areas of the site (Blogging, Gaming Service, Wiki, the Competitions) - we could equally say not to bother with those as people doing enough in those areas would qualify for citizenship/phalera.
    You know where's the difference? all these awards are assigned on the request of a Director/Senior or directly by a Hex, while these modding awards are remitted to the Curia.. huge difference I would say.. if those were awards assigned on request of the Modding Staff, that would have make the whole thing different, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator Majora View Post
    All of the modding awards are in the remit of the curia, aren't they?
    Except the only actual Modding Awards, I mean those that ended just 2 days ago

    @ Iskar; they have been intended to be Curial awards since the beginning, as reported on the awards page
    Last edited by Flinn; May 22, 2020 at 08:21 AM.
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