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Thread: [Discussion] Modding Awards

  1. #21

    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    The wording - though not the bronze/silver/gold bit is on the Register of Medals Awarded by Vote of the Curia - though that looks like it might have been KA updating it after Gigantus was awarded them...

  2. #22
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    So it sounds like the const. needs a small update in that regard. I'll add it to our list of things to update.

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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Thank you Morticia for directly addressing the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    You won't get people motivated to nominate someone, if you raise the bar for a silver medal or Artifex on DeI level, a mod with a hosted subforum.^^
    Firstly, this is a bar for me, not to raise for other people (it's not much of a defined bar in the first place). The bronze level is to create a relatively small one-off or be around 'for a bit', mainly people who aren't necessarily active about the forums and would generally be nominated or likely to participate about the site. They would generally be passed up on account of not doing much overall/so far/yet if that was all they were nominated for. If they were nominated for more, bronze in either would be a compliment to their nomination. I specifically mentioned that it wouldn't be an end-all and that it would merely be something to entail artifex by itself; in combination especially with different contributions there is more room for other pairings.

    Secondly, a hosted forum is but one of multiple things mentioned; repeated efforts that are smaller on their own and a notable submod were other examples made that clearly subvert requiring a hosted forum. It's not especially difficult to get a hosted forum in the first place. A lot of it is caring enough/being aware of the option to go for it. Someone who takes that extra step has already taken a measure to distinguish themselves and their contribution from someone who simply puts something out in the released mods forum and just leaves it there for good, deliberately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    And there is no two kinds of modding activity in the workshop, those, who make mods, and those, who make tutorials.

    Tutorials are made by people, which have huge experience with those area of modding because they have made many mods and spent much time in this area.
    Firstly, the latter award could be stretched to include useful gameplay guides and resources that do indeed not require skills in actually producing a full sized mod.

    Secondly, there are indeed users who are not distinct by virtue of

    There is a difference between producing mods and producing community resources. Some, and there are very obvious targets, produce both, and they should be credited as such. Others simply want to create and publish their mods with little interest in haunting workshops (one of the conditions, already diversifying the award beyond what you singled out) or spend their time not creating singular ambitious projects, but instead helping out the community or releasing individual tools despite not having a history of releasing player mods on TWC. There are plenty of cases for this split to be made, and that is the distinction that justifies the two awards to me - especially since the latter can stretch beyond simply making things useful to modders, which by no means only includes people who have huge experience because they made many mods. They overlap, but they are not the same. I see no problem with the people that do getting awards for both.


    -----

    The modding awards aren't integrated very well, of course. But they are indeed fully in the scope and purview of the curia. With a proposal to change them, even if not the split I envision, they would hopefully be better integrated and thus useful. If we have something, we should use it. Such is my thought. I'd rather not let all meta interest in modding simply die out.

    The very first proposition for the awards were a bit more clear and better structured in the original decision. At the very least, a throwback to some of that would be nice.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Usually tiered awards (bronze, silver, gold, platinum, emerald, diamond, chocolate) are handled by staff branches responsible for the respective area of the site and, yeah, there's no mention of these modding awards in the Constitution either, hence I thought they were still in staff remit. If they aren't and if there is no active Modding Staff available to handle them I think it is a viable solution to have them handed out by the Curia.
    Sounds sensible to me. Of course that can change, should the Modding Staff re-emerge as a separate staff branch in the future.
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    If we want to facilitate the dispension of these awards as envisioned by the Emperor, we might consider having them be no-vote-ones, just assigned by the Consul (in consultation with the Censores, maybe). All you'd need to do is shoot the Consult a PM "this guys XYZ is a suitable candidate for Modding/Tooling Award Level 1/2/3, take a look at him." This would of course require clear criteria the Consul can assess without having to call a vote with a pompous award nomination and all.
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  6. #26
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    If we want to facilitate the dispension of these awards as envisioned by the Emperor, we might consider having them be no-vote-ones, just assigned by the Consul (in consultation with the Censores, maybe). All you'd need to do is shoot the Consult a PM "this guys XYZ is a suitable candidate for Modding/Tooling Award Level 1/2/3, take a look at him." This would of course require clear criteria the Consul can assess without having to call a vote with a pompous award nomination and all.
    if that will be the case in the future, every Consul can consider me at their disposal for assigning those awards
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  7. #27
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    If we want to facilitate the dispension of these awards as envisioned by the Emperor, we might consider having them be no-vote-ones, just assigned by the Consul (in consultation with the Censores, maybe). All you'd need to do is shoot the Consult a PM "this guys XYZ is a suitable candidate for Modding/Tooling Award Level 1/2/3, take a look at him." This would of course require clear criteria the Consul can assess without having to call a vote with a pompous award nomination and all.
    What Flinn said, and I think doing that would have the best result IMO.
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    I'd be game for that course.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    How would the consul determine that modder X meets the criteria for award Y? I understand the wish to keep it simple, but it would be a lot of work and can't be done without a decent knowledge of modding itself and what goes on in the modding forums.

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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Some level of oversight would be nice for that reason, even if the nominator could well make a solid case and the consul and/or seconds can pretty simply check them, assuming they're proposed and explained properly.

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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    You'd need some very specific requirements for that, I guess. Now that I try to quantify mods I realise this is not that easy at all. The Bronze level may yet be easy by setting the threshold to a small mod (tweak) or submod, basically a recognition that the person is a modder, for the modding line, and helping with ten questions in the tool/support/tutorial part of the modding forums, basically a recognition that the person helps modders (in what way ever).
    The silver standard is already harder, as it covers the blurry lines between lots of tweaks and a "proper" mod (when progressing from bronze to silver), as well as between a major "small mod" and an actual hosted mod/overhaul (when passing from silver to gold). The gold standard then becomes easier again as I would only award it for hosted mods/complete overhauls or considerable tutoring contributions (3 tutorials and/or, dunno, 200 posts in the modding help fora?).

    I realise this is rather technical, but the alternative is voting including increasingly pompous nominations that will in time discourage people again from even having themselves nominated.
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    And how would we handle the work of mod teams that can be working for years on the same mod? Speaking from experience, having participated or still participating in three rather large submods, the core members often have spent hundreds or even thousands of hours working on the mod.

    I take it that this is not about the Opifex award, since that is based on more than modding contributions alone, although it can of course be granted on achievements solely related to modding.

    I'm not against a simple, hopefully effective process, but the fact remains that this is a rather big task that's not that easy and will probably take a lot of time. And it has to be done by a Consul, possibly with some help (which immediately complicates things again). A Consul that already has to manage the Curia and gets elected for half a year. I hope I got the latter right.

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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Now that I think of it, my original thoughts for how to execute this would probably work just fine.
    - Takes 3 supports and 3 days to move to vote. Kept up on, a very simple part of the process.
    - One week and a majority vote to get through. Again, if it's properly applied, I imagine this would be a shoo-in, volume of content aside.

    The main concern is the time and flood of nominations if applied evenly considering a lot of people would be affected. If this could be expedited somewhat, that would be nice. Otherwise, it's a moderately appropriate form of vetting, and I'm not necessarily concerned about getting the votes up and running expediently with the raw time aside.

    I may be wrong, but I think the Consul term might actually be a whopping 4 months.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Having votes would release us of the necessity to have set-in-stone criteria for the Consul to follow. Still, a scale of some sort would be helpful to prod decision making in those votes along. I would also encourage NOT having official nominations (as these tend to become more and more elaborate in time, eventually discouraging everyone), but to simply open threads about possible candidates with a few links to their mods and let people discuss, with an automatic vote after a few days.

    As a basis for discussion, how about this scale: (most likely subject to heavy adjustments by the modders among us)
    LevelModdingSupport
    BronzeTweak Mod, Submod, Alpha of Large (Overhaul/Hosted) Mod, Hosted WIP Mod ForumHelping with a dozen issues, small tutorials
    Silverhalf a dozen tweaks or submods, Beta of Large (Overhaul/Hosted) ModFull Tutorial, helping with issues over several months
    GoldOverhaul or Large Compilation, Hosted ModSeveral Tutorials, pillar of the support fora short of Gigantus
    Last edited by Iskar; May 23, 2020 at 09:15 AM.
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  15. #35
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Having votes would release us of the necessity to have set-in-stone criteria for the Consul to follow. Still, a scale of some sort would be helpful to prod decision making in those votes along. I would also encourage NOT having official nominations (as these tend to become more and more elaborate in time, eventually discouraging everyone), but to simply open threads about possible candidates with a few links to their mods and let people discuss, with an automatic vote after a few days.

    As a basis for discussion, how about this scale: (most likely subject to heavy adjustments by the modders among us)
    LevelModdingSupport
    BronzeTweak Mod, Submod, Alpha of Large (Overhaul/Hosted) Mod, Hosted WIP Mod ForumHelping with a dozen issues, small tutorials
    Silverhalf a dozen tweaks or submods, Beta of Large (Overhaul/Hosted) ModFull Tutorial, helping with issues over several months
    GoldOverhaul or Large Compilation, Hosted ModSeveral Tutorials, pillar of the support fora short of Gigantus
    I think that is more suitable for the Legio 501st award and not the Modding Service award since I consider the latter to be similiar to what the TWC 10 Years award is for, a small award that makes anyone eligible for that award and so should it be with the Modding Service award. Just my 2 cents.

    Although, one can call the Modding Service Award for the mod users award as it is a small award.
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Modding Awards

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Having votes would release us of the necessity to have set-in-stone criteria for the Consul to follow. Still, a scale of some sort would be helpful to prod decision making in those votes along. I would also encourage NOT having official nominations (as these tend to become more and more elaborate in time, eventually discouraging everyone), but to simply open threads about possible candidates with a few links to their mods and let people discuss, with an automatic vote after a few days.
    The tricky thing here is balancing between curial oversight and convenience, as well as the possible flurry of things for members to look at if they are properly distributed - that effort would indeed take quite a few people. I think it would result in a lot of bogging down if the thread boiled down to 'here's some possible candidates, lets discuss' as compared to outlining what award they should get and why. Perhaps the ideal for this is to make a 'bundle' thread proposing multiple recipients (given the small nature of the awards that shouldn't result in much controversy), and let the ensuing discussion target inaccuracies and 'amend' such issues in the proposal before it is then moved to vote and the awards are distributed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    As a basis for discussion, how about this scale: (most likely subject to heavy adjustments by the modders among us)
    LevelModdingSupport
    BronzeTweak Mod, Submod, Alpha of Large (Overhaul/Hosted) Mod, Hosted WIP Mod ForumHelping with a dozen issues, small tutorials
    Silverhalf a dozen tweaks or submods, Beta of Large (Overhaul/Hosted) ModFull Tutorial, helping with issues over several months
    GoldOverhaul or Large Compilation, Hosted ModSeveral Tutorials, pillar of the support fora short of Gigantus
    A good start for what I'd envision this looking like. A few notes.
    - Rather than specify release state, perhaps we should consider in terms of playable content. Awards should be given for what players can do, not for what state of release something is relating to being bigger. My intention on the modding side is to specify releases of playable content, thus, a notable released submod (or multiple) play into the award's level, achieving a hosted mod gives the mid range, but allowing something to work up towards on the last level since there are multiple users with multiple subforums. I'd like silver to be a decent milestone either for getting the hosted forum (since that by itself is not the end-all, when comparing what various hosted forums actually look like) or for releasing enough that it might as well deserve that as far as effort put forth. First level should indeed award smaller releases or promising starts to larger content, but I don't think the levels should be bound to that, especially as fickle terms as 'alpha' and 'beta'. This is what motivates the examples I put in the original post based on current selections and trying to even out the levels between what can be expected of TWC's audience recently and historically while still giving leeway for opifex to truly distinguish someone. But perhaps I'm reaching too high for Gold. I simply think if we have a three level spectrum to account for basically everything below opifex, it should be a bit more than 'just' a singular hosted forum/large compilation/overhaul, since it would represent scale of effort as well as legacy even if it does not quite bring people to nominate for opifex.
    - I'd like tools to also join the 'support' category since there is a distinction between 'meta' efforts such as the OP's linked editor and memory editing projects and releasing full blown mods for players. I'd call them pretty much equivalent to tutorials as far as their significance, thus to be considered hand in hand. I'm not commenting much on the wording beyond that as that will probably need its own line of thought.

    The metrics need to catch that balance between broad and specific, enough of the former for agency and to avoid technical discrepancies where they aren't needed, but enough of the latter to avoid bogging down in discussion of 'well what's this then' to subvert the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    I think that is more suitable for the Legio 501st award and not the Modding Service award since I consider the latter to be similiar to what the TWC 10 Years award is for, a small award that makes anyone eligible for that award and so should it be with the Modding Service award. Just my 2 cents.

    Although, one can call the Modding Service Award for the mod users award as it is a small award.
    I don't get what you are trying to convey.
    - The MS is not a 'participation for 10 years' award the likes of TWC Milestone Award (iirc). It is a specific 'you have achieved these things, now here is an award' in line with virtually the rest of the site, not an real milestone to be put on the same level.
    - It's an intermediate that heavily overlaps in premise with the 501st, particularly its gold level. I've seen no attempts to rebuke or reconcile this observation.
    - You never did explain what your LM thing was about initially. I still don't get that.
    - I don't know what you mean with the last sentence in this post.
    - This thread is for the replacement of 501st with two distinctive branches that include both of the qualifications used for the Modding Service Award, by extension replacing that one for clarity since it is clearly unused and its requirements do not fit the vision presented in the thread.

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