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Thread: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

  1. #1
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    Default [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    Alright then fellas, this is a thread for brainstorming. It's clear that for many the constitution is too complicated, too abstract, too ancient one might say. During this term I'd like to have that changed, and I'd like to improve it, and possibly even revamp it. This of course is something I can't do without my fellow citizens approval, and so before I go out on a tangent, do a lot of work on something that results in completely rubbish amendment I'd like to ask you a couple of questions.

    What do you feel are the biggest flaws of the current constitution?

    Are there any points that are no longer relevant?

    Are there things that should be added?

    How do you feel about the footnotes?

    And anything else you feel inclined to comment upon regarding it.

    I'm hoping to see a few inputs here that will give me something to base a rework on, so thank you all for replying.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    In the Constitution there' are definitions and procedures.
    Why not starting to separate them? Keep the constitution for the basic definitions and principles. Then all procedures (like elections, referral, etc...) and their requirements should be stored/ordered 1 by 1 (don't know the exact term in English) with a link for each in the Constitution.
    Mode documents but easier to spot the part you want to check
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  3. #3
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    I have a probably somewhat radical suggestion:

    Just get rid of almost all regulations and procedures.

    We elect responsible and trustworthy individuals as Consuls, we can trust them to sort out the administrative details (time periods, voting duration, dealing with absent officers) according to their own discretion.
    That would also reduce the opportunities to VoNC officials for not super-exactly following every regulation and if a Consul actually abuses their discretion we can still make proper use of the VoNC (yay, the drama!).

    The only regulations I'd keep are requirements for offices. Everything else can be dealt with by consulary discretion and citizens voting responsibly in applications and proposals.
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    Begin with the PDF. It's a nice modernization.

    Step 2, clean up the wording, eliminate redundancy. This is content change, but should not fundamentally alter things, merely make the whole easier to adjust as well as swallow.

    Then the controversial stage of 'kill praefects', etc etc...

  5. #5
    Cope's Avatar 777777777777777
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator Majora View Post
    Begin with the PDF. It's a nice modernization.

    Step 2, clean up the wording, eliminate redundancy. This is content change, but should not fundamentally alter things, merely make the whole easier to adjust as well as swallow.

    Then the controversial stage of 'kill praefects', etc etc...
    Yeah, I'm not interested in sweeping reform either. For now I'm just looking at cleaning the document up.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    I have a probably somewhat radical suggestion:

    Just get rid of almost all regulations and procedures.

    We elect responsible and trustworthy individuals as Consuls, we can trust them to sort out the administrative details (time periods, voting duration, dealing with absent officers) according to their own discretion.
    That would also reduce the opportunities to VoNC officials for not super-exactly following every regulation and if a Consul actually abuses their discretion we can still make proper use of the VoNC (yay, the drama!).

    The only regulations I'd keep are requirements for offices. Everything else can be dealt with by consulary discretion and citizens voting responsibly in applications and proposals.
    that's basically how we work in the Staff, isn't it? Except that we don't need to elect people, but we simply consult with each other to decide if a member is worthy to be hired or promoted, or deserves an award or some rep.. Hexers oversee everything, Seniors manage "younger" staffers and all together we work at our best to be productive while maintaining a friendly and positive attitude. I don't remember of any drama in the Staff, actually the drama became so when it was moved from the Staff to the Curia (remember the HS drama?) ... mind you, it does not mean that it's all perfect (I hate Hader for instance, and have been trying to overthrow him for ages.. ah curse you, damned Inquisitor! ), but we try to respect each other and we keep an eye on each other.. we don't VonC, we don't go for witch hunting, but we rather "educate" each other every other day (Tango, sorry for having annoyed you so many times ) and we go by majority without the need of putting up two opposing fronts.

    maybe it's worth to put a proposal for a complete overhaul of the Curia.. maybe
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    Tango12345's Avatar Never mind the manoeuvres...
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    (Tango, sorry for having annoyed you so many times )
    You so aren't .

  8. #8
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Yeah, I'm not interested in sweeping reform either. For now I'm just looking at cleaning the document up.
    Agreed. If anyone have notice it, but the timestamp for the OP is from 2007 and the other posts is a year later.

    It is about time The Constitution gets updated with a new modern layout.
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    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    You have to look at the last edit timestamp to see when it was last updated. That would e 2019/2020, although the last major change in layout and structure was probably 2018.
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    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    I've tried and removed all the regulatory fluff from the document, leaving only the actual constitutional principles that (hopefully) define us. I shamelessly used Akar's PDF version for the edits, as it is much easier to use than extracting the text from the BB Code riddled Constitution thread.

    Constitution_short.pdf
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi

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  11. #11

    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    that's basically how we work in the Staff, isn't it? Except that we don't need to elect people, but we simply consult with each other to decide if a member is worthy to be hired or promoted, or deserves an award or some rep.. Hexers oversee everything, Seniors manage "younger" staffers and all together we work at our best to be productive while maintaining a friendly and positive attitude. I don't remember of any drama in the Staff, actually the drama became so when it was moved from the Staff to the Curia (remember the HS drama?) ... mind you, it does not mean that it's all perfect (I hate Hader for instance, and have been trying to overthrow him for ages.. ah curse you, damned Inquisitor! ), but we try to respect each other and we keep an eye on each other.. we don't VonC, we don't go for witch hunting, but we rather "educate" each other every other day (Tango, sorry for having annoyed you so many times ) and we go by majority without the need of putting up two opposing fronts.

    maybe it's worth to put a proposal for a complete overhaul of the Curia.. maybe
    I'm sure you would prefer if Hex could just appoint whoever it wants in all positions on this site. But that rather defeats the purpose of having non-hex appointed positions at all, doesn't it? Maybe, after all, Hex isn't the end all be all of the site. Maybe outside sources may actually prove to be beneficial to the site. As hex it is easy to believe you know everything. Insight is knowing that you may not. Your contention there's no drama in staff is just...completely false.

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  12. #12
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    I think you misread Flinn's post. The main thrust was about solving issues in an atmosphere of collegiality without much explicit regulatory fluff around, which might be something we should try in the Curia.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    I will let Flinn determine whether or not I have misread his post, but obviously what you've delineated is my preferred method of resolving any controversy. Let's see is the powers that be agree.

  14. #14
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    I've tried and removed all the regulatory fluff from the document, leaving only the actual constitutional principles that (hopefully) define us. I shamelessly used Akar's PDF version for the edits, as it is much easier to use than extracting the text from the BB Code riddled Constitution thread.

    Constitution_short.pdf
    I'll read through this later, but I just wanted to quickly post a link to where you can read this .pdf without being prompted to download it.

    https://www.docdroid.net/n4323YU/constitution-short-pdf


    edit: for what it's worth, that's also the message I got out of Flinn's post too, Iskar.

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  15. #15
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    Nice, thanks
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.

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  16. #16
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    maybe it's worth to put a proposal for a complete overhaul of the Curia.. maybe
    What do you have in mind?
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    If you want to keep things simple do:

    Re order the Constitutions to a more readable format. (remove the dreaded footnotes).


    Akar's approach makes more sense. It just needs numbers to allow for easy referencing and amending.

    Keep things simple.

    Remove Prefects.

    Elevate the Consul position to equivalence of an Admin (Thought he color and badge will remain unchanged, it is more of a status thing).
    Eliminate "censors" Bring back the Curator. The Curator will be responsible for the daily chores.
    The Consul will act as a moderator of the Curia.
    If activity rises again, we simply add Curators. All elected.

    What we have is one elected Consul, one elected Curator, and two Elected Magistrate.

    I would add one wrinkle. Allow Magistrate to be the final interpretation of the Constitution. If there is a split between the two the Consul will decide.
    Magistrates and Consul cannot be VonC for their "interpretation." if you do not like their decision, then either vote against them in the next election or make a proposal.

    if you want wait periods; 1 month for Curator,3 months for magistrate, and 6 months for Consul.

    Additional powers of the Consul; allow the Consul to appoint positions or committee without resolutions.
    All proposals just need one second as opposed to three. let things go to vote. Consequentially, i would extend the debate time from 3 days to 5 days thus allowing people a chance to see the proposal.

    Edit:

    Remove the entire referral system. Keep the Ostrakon. The Consul and Curator can determine merit.
    Referrals from moderation;
    Minor violations is a "Censor" from the Consul.
    Major warnings gets noted.
    if persistent, the Consul can initiate an Ostrakon.

    Simple and Sweet
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    If you want to keep things simple do:

    Re order the Constitutions to a more readable format. (remove the dreaded footnotes).


    Akar's approach makes more sense. It just needs numbers to allow for easy referencing and amending.

    Keep things simple.

    Remove Prefects.

    Elevate the Consul position to equivalence of an Admin (Thought he color and badge will remain unchanged, it is more of a status thing).
    Eliminate "censors" Bring back the Curator. The Curator will be responsible for the daily chores.
    The Consul will act as a moderator of the Curia.
    If activity rises again, we simply add Curators. All elected.

    What we have is one elected Consul, one elected Curator, and two Elected Magistrate.

    I would add one wrinkle. Allow Magistrate to be the final interpretation of the Constitution. If there is a split between the two the Consul will decide.
    Magistrates and Consul cannot be VonC for their "interpretation." if you do not like their decision, then either vote against them in the next election or make a proposal.

    if you want wait periods; 1 month for Curator,3 months for magistrate, and 6 months for Consul.

    Additional powers of the Consul; allow the Consul to appoint positions or committee without resolutions.
    All proposals just need one second as opposed to three. let things go to vote. Consequentially, i would extend the debate time from 3 days to 5 days thus allowing people a chance to see the proposal.

    Edit:

    Remove the entire referral system. Keep the Ostrakon. The Consul and Curator can determine merit.
    Referrals from moderation;
    Minor violations is a "Censor" from the Consul.
    Major warnings gets noted.
    if persistent, the Consul can initiate an Ostrakon.

    Simple and Sweet
    That is not even close to be simple and sweet.

    Do we really have Curator(s)? I don't think so. Besides, Order 66 replaced Curator's Assistant with Censors.

    The last part is basically a re-introduction of the CdeC, nothing else.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    LOL, do you even know what the CdeC is?


    It was a group of 12. They did more than just vote in citizens. They also dealt with discipline.

    The above removed half of the people we have now.

    One Consul (replaces the prefects and Primus prefects)
    Curator (replaces censors and it is now one person). We don't need an army of Assistants.
    The elections will be stacked so that each person is responsible for conducting the elections.

    The last part removes the triumvirate altogether.

    No more debates in discipline. If you get a Curia warning or a moderators warning above 2 points, then 1 month suspension.
    Minor moderators warnings and Curial warnings can be dealt with with a Censure

    If a citizen is persistent, then an Ostrakon is initiated. T keep it from being Arbitrary, both the Curator and Consul must agree.

    I am not seeing how "two people" turned into 12 people, but ok.

    Curator makes sense because originally, the Censors do what the Curator did. Plus, it brings back a historic title doing what it did before.

    We really do not need three "moderators." The Consul and Curator can perform this task.
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  20. #20
    Flinn's Avatar Jokersconi abides...
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Constitution Revamp

    @ Ponti, Iskar is on point, that's what I'm referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    I think you misread Flinn's post. The main thrust was about solving issues in an atmosphere of collegiality without much explicit regulatory fluff around, which might be something we should try in the Curia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Your contention there's no drama in staff is just...completely false.
    Think as you prefer, but it is so now. I don't know how it was at your time, but I can ensure you that there has been no drama in the Staff for years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    The view from within the ivory tower is very different from without. The longer you're in, the harder it becomes to see outside.
    All the active Hexers aren't sitting in the tower, on the contrary we constantly walk amid the people.. but we are only humans, we miss the godly powers mate, so to say eh.. so we do what we can with what we have.. as I said you more than once you are aiming at the wrong target, and by doing so you are only acting oppositely to what you are pretending to be doing here...
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