View Poll Results: Should the VonC Akar be Closed

Voters
3. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    2 66.67%
  • No

    1 33.33%
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 24

Thread: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

  1. #1
    PikeStance's Avatar Talk'in to me
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Zengcheng District
    Posts
    11,951
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    This is a call to the Primus Praefect and/ or Consul to close the [VonC] Akar proposal.

    Non-citizens are welcome to post support in the Commentary thread.
    If you have been under a rock: The proposal in question.

    The VonC is an improper procedure. Determination of eligibility for Curial office is the responsibility of the Consul and not the Censors. In light of the circumstances, the Consul may be hesitant to close the thread, so a petition showing support for such action may be needed.

    Moreover, Frivolous use of this procedure shall be considered grounds for Curial disciplinary proceedings as per Section III. (as per Constitution) Is further action need other than closing the thread, probably not, but this is definitely a frivolous use of procedure.
    Last edited by PikeStance; May 18, 2020 at 04:47 AM.
    MODDERS WANTED | MY PATRONAGES
    Imperial Splendour is looking for Modders and Researchers. SEE AD HERE
    If interested, contact PikeStance(Mod Leader/Manager) or Quintus Hortensius Hortalus (Mod leader /Lead Artist)

    Under the Patronage of Omnipotent- Q | Member of the House of Wild Bill Kelso
    Patron of
    _Tataros_
    | Magister Militum Flavius Aetius | Alwyn | Lord Oda Nobunaga | Massive_attack |
    Proposed the Following for PHALERA: Mangalore & sumskilz | OPIFEX: wangrin, z3n, and Swiss Halberdier


    Honourable Society of Silly Old Duffers | House of Noble Discourse

  2. #2
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Gold Coast
    Posts
    6,490

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    For what reason should the thread be closed?
    FrunkSpace | Mod Announcements | Colonies & Empires

    Under the patronage of Iskar of the House of Siblesz. I am the proud patron of:

    atthias | PaulH | Athos187

  3. #3
    PikeStance's Avatar Talk'in to me
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Zengcheng District
    Posts
    11,951
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    Holy cow that was fast!
    MODDERS WANTED | MY PATRONAGES
    Imperial Splendour is looking for Modders and Researchers. SEE AD HERE
    If interested, contact PikeStance(Mod Leader/Manager) or Quintus Hortensius Hortalus (Mod leader /Lead Artist)

    Under the Patronage of Omnipotent- Q | Member of the House of Wild Bill Kelso
    Patron of
    _Tataros_
    | Magister Militum Flavius Aetius | Alwyn | Lord Oda Nobunaga | Massive_attack |
    Proposed the Following for PHALERA: Mangalore & sumskilz | OPIFEX: wangrin, z3n, and Swiss Halberdier


    Honourable Society of Silly Old Duffers | House of Noble Discourse

  4. #4
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
    Patrician Citizen Magistrate

    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Frankfurt, München, somtimes my beloved Rhineland
    Posts
    5,522

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    As I said in the actual thread: Neither the Consul nor the Praefects can just close proposals at whim. There'd have to be a clear indication of disingenuity/spamminess or the communicated wish of the proposer to close it. You're asking for the Consul to overstep his authority with this petition.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    Under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Neadal/Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  5. #5
    AqD's Avatar 。◕‿◕。
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    🏡🐰🐿️🐴🌳
    Posts
    10,333

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    agree with Iskar here. People demand justice!

  6. #6
    PikeStance's Avatar Talk'in to me
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Zengcheng District
    Posts
    11,951
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    The OP amended

    The VonC is an improper procedure. Determination of eligibility for Curial office is the responsibility of the Consul and not the Censors. In light of the circumstances, the Consul may be hesitant to close the thread, so a petition showing support for such action may be needed.
    MODDERS WANTED | MY PATRONAGES
    Imperial Splendour is looking for Modders and Researchers. SEE AD HERE
    If interested, contact PikeStance(Mod Leader/Manager) or Quintus Hortensius Hortalus (Mod leader /Lead Artist)

    Under the Patronage of Omnipotent- Q | Member of the House of Wild Bill Kelso
    Patron of
    _Tataros_
    | Magister Militum Flavius Aetius | Alwyn | Lord Oda Nobunaga | Massive_attack |
    Proposed the Following for PHALERA: Mangalore & sumskilz | OPIFEX: wangrin, z3n, and Swiss Halberdier


    Honourable Society of Silly Old Duffers | House of Noble Discourse

  7. #7
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Gold Coast
    Posts
    6,490

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    That's not in the Constitution, Pike. Censors are subject to VoNC's regardless of their subordination to the Consul.
    FrunkSpace | Mod Announcements | Colonies & Empires

    Under the patronage of Iskar of the House of Siblesz. I am the proud patron of:

    atthias | PaulH | Athos187

  8. #8
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    12th Plane of Torment
    Posts
    15,005
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    No, it should not be closed. Justice is blind and demands answers. I don't think I did anything wrong and I think I will be exonerated, so I see no issues with letting this play out. And even if I did have an issue with that, it would not be my place, or the Consul's place, or the Praefect's place, or anyone but the initiator of the VONCs place to suspend the VONC. Frunk's has the right to have his voice heard like any other member, no matter how much we might disagree with it.

    Want to play TWC D&D? Click here | Join the Thema Devia Discord here
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan

    Proud Patron of Sara Temerand Cope






  9. #9
    PikeStance's Avatar Talk'in to me
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Zengcheng District
    Posts
    11,951
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    You still do not get it. They do not make any decisions. It is the Consul who makes the judgement. The Censors are at the Consul's disposal. You are VonC'ing the wrong person.

    @Akar, it isn't about you. It is about proper procedure. You do not have anything to be "exonerated for."
    MODDERS WANTED | MY PATRONAGES
    Imperial Splendour is looking for Modders and Researchers. SEE AD HERE
    If interested, contact PikeStance(Mod Leader/Manager) or Quintus Hortensius Hortalus (Mod leader /Lead Artist)

    Under the Patronage of Omnipotent- Q | Member of the House of Wild Bill Kelso
    Patron of
    _Tataros_
    | Magister Militum Flavius Aetius | Alwyn | Lord Oda Nobunaga | Massive_attack |
    Proposed the Following for PHALERA: Mangalore & sumskilz | OPIFEX: wangrin, z3n, and Swiss Halberdier


    Honourable Society of Silly Old Duffers | House of Noble Discourse

  10. #10
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
    Patrician Citizen Magistrate

    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Frankfurt, München, somtimes my beloved Rhineland
    Posts
    5,522

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    Akar is a Curial Officer by the Consitution, Curial Officers can be subjected to a VoNC by the Constitution. Whether you think the VoNC has merit is a completely different question that you can expand on in the actual proposal thread.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    Under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Neadal/Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  11. #11
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus Content Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    13,291
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    As I said in the actual thread: Neither the Consul nor the Praefects can just close proposals at whim. There'd have to be a clear indication of disingenuity/spamminess or the communicated wish of the proposer to close it. You're asking for the Consul to overstep his authority with this petition.
    Iskar is right. A valid VoNC has to be abandonned by the original poster or to go to its end, no matter if justified or not.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; May 18, 2020 at 05:24 AM. Reason: Precision added
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader


  12. #12
    Hitai de Bodemloze's Avatar 避世絕俗
    Content Emeritus

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    2,249
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    This VonC has quite clearly thrown up several questions in regards to Curial procedure.

    1) Can an unelected assistant/Censor be subject to a VonC? If so, given that the position is unelected, what provisions are there to prevent the offender from being immediately reinstated?
    2) Is the Consul responsible for any error or offence caused by an assistant that they have appointed, and thus VonC-able by proxy?
    3) What provisions are there to prevent non-citizens from or punish them for bringing frivolous VonC's to bear in the Prothalamos and/or falsifying evidence?

    The Constitution does not appear to have clear answers to these questions. For what it's worth, I personally believe Akar is VonC-able and I believe Frunk's course of action was correct. The lack of substantial and verifiable evidence however, alongside the fact that it has become increasingly clear this whole ordeal has been an elaborate farce initiated at the Curia's expense, leads me to conclude that the Consul/Praefects should step in and take control of this situation.

  13. #13
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    12th Plane of Torment
    Posts
    15,005
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    You still do not get it. They do not make any decisions. It is the Consul who makes the judgement. The Censors are at the Consul's disposal. You are VonC'ing the wrong person.

    @Akar, it isn't about you. It is about proper procedure. You do not have anything to be "exonerated for."
    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Akar is a Curial Officer by the Consitution, Curial Officers can be subjected to a VoNC by the Constitution. Whether you think the VoNC has merit is a completely different question that you can expand on in the actual proposal thread.
    It is my understanding that Iskar is correct. I am responsible for my actions. I am an officer of the Curia, even if I am not elected.

    I do appreciate your support and everyone else's though.

    Want to play TWC D&D? Click here | Join the Thema Devia Discord here
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan

    Proud Patron of Sara Temerand Cope






  14. #14
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Gold Coast
    Posts
    6,490

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    An elaborate farce? That's a pretty heavy accusation, Hitai. It's no secret that I have pointed to my open proposal about reform, but that is NOT why the VoNC was initiated by me.

    Caligula, either alone or with others, came into the Proth to last night and within an hour tried to leave all the drama behind and expect no damage done. Yeah, nah, that's making a mockery of the place, and I don't think I'd be fine to stand for that. So, I referred Caligula and resumed the VoNC against Akar as it raised questions which, to date, have not been satisfactorily answered, as you yourself agree.

    I take exception to that accusation. If Akar is innocent, I expect him to take exception to my allegations.
    Last edited by Frunk; May 18, 2020 at 05:45 AM. Reason: Updated.
    FrunkSpace | Mod Announcements | Colonies & Empires

    Under the patronage of Iskar of the House of Siblesz. I am the proud patron of:

    atthias | PaulH | Athos187

  15. #15
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    12th Plane of Torment
    Posts
    15,005
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    I don't think that Hitai was accusing you as being the originator of the farce.

    After this is over, can we talk about how fun of a word farce is?

    Want to play TWC D&D? Click here | Join the Thema Devia Discord here
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan

    Proud Patron of Sara Temerand Cope






  16. #16
    Hitai de Bodemloze's Avatar 避世絕俗
    Content Emeritus

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    2,249
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    An elaborate farce? That's a pretty heavy accusation, Hitai. It's no secret that I have pointed to my open proposal about reform, but that is NOT why the VoNC was initiated by me.

    Caligula, either alone or with others, came into the Proth to last night and within an hour tried to leave all the drama behind and expect no damage done. Yeah, nah, that's making a mockery of the place, and I don't think I'd be fine to stand for that. So, I referred Caligula and resumed the VoNC against Akar as it raised questions which, to date, have not been satisfactorily answered, as you yourself agree.

    I take exception to that accusation. If Akar is innocent, I expect him to take exception to my allegations, but he is yet to reply to my pretty straightforward follow-up question, nearly 8 hours later, despite having time to post here and elsewhere.
    Apologies, I didn't mean to suggest your VonC was the farce; as I said, I believe what you did was correct. My meaning is that your VonC, despite being procedurally correct, is nevertheless one that has resulted from and uses 'evidence' from what appears to be a frivolous practical joke. As such, despite your good intentions, the process has been railroaded because of what your allegations are predicated upon, and some people now involved in the discussions are unable to sort fact from fiction, or joke from seriousness. I agree we shouldn't stand for letting this place be made a mockery of, which is why I think our Curial officials here should step in; perhaps not to close your thread as I might have too hastily intimated before, but to at least moderate the discussion and control the situation.

  17. #17
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Gold Coast
    Posts
    6,490

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    I see. I apologise for misunderstanding.

    For what it's worth, I have been disappointed that many members felt the need to either respond inflammatorily, or just post sarcastically. Yeah, I know the Curia is seen as a big joke and maybe that's fair enough, but it's disappointing when a thread can be railroaded and I find my entire presence on the site called into question for simply observing what are the rules of the Curia, and doing what I feel is both my right and my duty. I agree that, ideally, that wouldn't be allowed to happen from a control-standpoint.

    @Akar: I love "farce". It's a 5-letter F-word.
    FrunkSpace | Mod Announcements | Colonies & Empires

    Under the patronage of Iskar of the House of Siblesz. I am the proud patron of:

    atthias | PaulH | Athos187

  18. #18
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    12th Plane of Torment
    Posts
    15,005
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    That's just part of the unfortunate reactionary nature of people and the internet in general. I'm afraid we'll run into that where ever we go, internet or not. Thankfully this community is usually capable of taking a step back and looking at things from an unemotional standpoint.

    Want to play TWC D&D? Click here | Join the Thema Devia Discord here
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan

    Proud Patron of Sara Temerand Cope






  19. #19
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus Content Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    13,291
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Petitition to Close the [VonC] Akar Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    This VonC has quite clearly thrown up several questions in regards to Curial procedure.

    1) Can an unelected assistant/Censor be subject to a VonC? If so, given that the position is unelected, what provisions are there to prevent the offender from being immediately reinstated?
    2) Is the Consul responsible for any error or offence caused by an assistant that they have appointed, and thus VonC-able by proxy?
    3) What provisions are there to prevent non-citizens from or punish them for bringing frivolous VonC's to bear in the Prothalamos and/or falsifying evidence?

    The Constitution does not appear to have clear answers to these questions. For what it's worth, I personally believe Akar is VonC-able and I believe Frunk's course of action was correct. The lack of substantial and verifiable evidence however, alongside the fact that it has become increasingly clear this whole ordeal has been an elaborate farce initiated at the Curia's expense, leads me to conclude that the Consul/Praefects should step in and take control of this situation.
    Even if you have raised some good points, as long as there's no issue moderation wise, Praefects aren't supposed to intervene officially.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    An elaborate farce? That's a pretty heavy accusation, Hitai. It's no secret that I have pointed to my open proposal about reform, but that is NOT why the VoNC was initiated by me.

    Caligula, either alone or with others, came into the Proth to last night and within an hour tried to leave all the drama behind and expect no damage done. Yeah, nah, that's making a mockery of the place, and I don't think I'd be fine to stand for that. So, I referred Caligula and resumed the VoNC against Akar as it raised questions which, to date, have not been satisfactorily answered, as you yourself agree.

    I take exception to that accusation. If Akar is innocent, I expect him to take exception to my allegations, but he is yet to reply to my pretty straightforward follow-up question, nearly 8 hours later, despite having time to post here and elsewhere.
    Just to play the devil's advocate, why resuming the VoNC against Akar and not the other one then?
    More seriously, is a VoNC not a bit disproportionate considering the fault (if the fault is confirmed)? The system is not foolproof. The original initiator recognized that it (the VoNC) was done on purpose as well. My apologizes, but what the hell: let's have a beer for cool down and then, see how to avoid such situation in the future.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader


  20. #20
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Gold Coast
    Posts
    6,490

    Default

    You are right, and I admit that I am not at all immune from getting worked up when I shouldn't and needn't. Thanks for resolving this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Just to play the devil's advocate, why resuming the VoNC against Akar and not the other one then?
    More seriously, is a VoNC not a bit disproportionate considering the fault (if the fault is confirmed)? The system is not foolproof. The original initiator recognized that it (the VoNC) was done on purpose as well. My apologizes, but what the hell: let's have a beer for cool down and then, see how to avoid such situation in the future.
    Both fair questions.

    Firstly, Cope is a Praefect. He doesn't manage elections, polls, and applicants. Consuls and Censors do.

    Secondly, in hindsight, yes, it seems like a big deal over nothing, but at this time about 20 hours ago, everything seemed very legitimate in terms of a mistake being allowed to be made; even after the original VoNC was revealed to be a farce, the evidence remained ambiguous to me and a few others. I now believe that that (Akar having foreknowledge) was not the case at all, and that the trolls and Curia-haters, unfortunately, are probably having the last laugh right now.
    Last edited by Frunk; May 18, 2020 at 06:23 AM.
    FrunkSpace | Mod Announcements | Colonies & Empires

    Under the patronage of Iskar of the House of Siblesz. I am the proud patron of:

    atthias | PaulH | Athos187

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •