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Thread: [VoNC] Akar

  1. #41
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    Imagine treating an internet forum like your own personal powertrip RP server. Trying to flex your "TWC Constitution" knowledge to get the only people willing to contribute to a position removed based on what was literally a joke post is the epitome of pathetic behavior and I feel bad for you that you would get this bent over such useless technicalities. Tell me, who was actually hurt by everything that occurred, or you think occurred during this whole situation? How is Akar, one of the only people who stayed active on this forum during all of its down years and has continuously pumped out content and performed in his position admirably, worthy of being removed from his position?

    How self-important must one be to think that after the original joke post was withdrawn, they would start an actual effort to follow through on the joke post? Would that person think themselves a hero, the "Holy Defender of the Sanctity of this Internet Forum", a place people come to to have fun and shoot the with the long-term friends they made years ago when it was actually a thriving community rather than the dying cesspit its become? I mean, I doubt anyone involved in the original joke actually thought someone would be so deluded as to actually follow through on it as you are now doing. I know a lot of places are locked down due to Corona but it just reeks of a bit too much free time. If this is what citizenship and the inner workings of TWC are, where people go on powertrips to remove others who don't have a stick up their ass about the holy TWC trinity, I'm glad I never followed through on offers I had for patronization. If people like you are now running the show in place of the old guard like GED and Hader, I think I'll go back to sticking only with the Discord you seem to be so triggered by than this kangaroo court where the loudest, angriest voices will try to scream and cry in their useless Roman government RP until they get their way, alienating those that want to keep working for the good of the site. It's just like, calm down man and learn to take a joke. Maybe if you'd been in the Discord you'd get that this is how people there with eachother.
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  2. #42
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    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    To my understanding, Akar was saying that the blackmail was "obviously a joke", and it is obvious. The question is simply if he knew, which the 2 screenshots suggest he did, that Commodus wasn't eligible, and/or regardless of the screenshots if he didn't check Commodus' eligibility, which is the job of the Censor as delegated to by the Consul. Again, Akar can come out and clarify. You may have made up your mind as to his guilt or innocence. I haven't. Van Zandt hasn't. I'll let Akar respond to the claims.

    I quite clearly said "support pending". You seemed to be implying that we should move to vote now. If not, fine. Let's move on.
    Akar has responded to your claims. Directly and more than once. If you yourself haven’t yet made up your mind about the charge that you have formally brought against him, how can the rest of us be expected to validate your explicit claim asserting his guilt? Yet you would have us all believe Akar is guilty of your allegations, regardless of the screenshots, hanging said allegations even more heavily on the circumstances alone. I’m glad you’ve made that much clear.

  3. #43

    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    For what it's worth, thanks for the invite. For the record, I had considered joining but just had never gotten around to it, but I certainly don't feel welcome now.
    This explains a lot! There is nothing further from the truth. it is open party where serious conversation is actively discouraged. All is welcome and no one takes anything seriously. Of course, if you knew this, you would not claiming that as evidence of anything.

    Anyway, Censors are not responsible for their own actions; the Consul is.

    If the Consul still shows confidence in Akar and you do not like that, then that is the route you should take, not this one.
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  4. #44
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    Sounds like Pike and Legio have more knowledge of the Constitution than the prosecutor
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  5. #45
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    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    Imagine treating an internet forum like your own personal powertrip RP server. Trying to flex your "TWC Constitution" knowledge to get the only people willing to contribute to a position removed based on what was literally a joke post is the epitome of pathetic behavior and I feel bad for you that you would get this bent over such useless technicalities. Tell me, who was actually hurt by everything that occurred, or you think occurred during this whole situation? How is Akar, one of the only people who stayed active on this forum during all of its down years and has continuously pumped out content and performed in his position admirably, worthy of being removed from his position?

    How self-important must one be to think that after the original joke post was withdrawn, they would start an actual effort to follow through on the joke post? Would that person think themselves a hero, the "Holy Defender of the Sanctity of this Internet Forum", a place people come to to have fun and shoot the with the long-term friends they made years ago when it was actually a thriving community rather than the dying cesspit its become? I mean, I doubt anyone involved in the original joke actually thought someone would be so deluded as to actually follow through on it as you are now doing. I know a lot of places are locked down due to Corona but it just reeks of a bit too much free time. If this is what citizenship and the inner workings of TWC are, where people go on powertrips to remove others who don't have a stick up their ass about the holy TWC trinity, I'm glad I never followed through on offers I had for patronization. If people like you are now running the show in place of the old guard like GED and Hader, I think I'll go back to sticking only with the Discord you seem to be so triggered by than this kangaroo court where the loudest, angriest voices will try to scream and cry in their useless Roman government RP until they get their way, alienating those that want to keep working for the good of the site. It's just like, calm down man and learn to take a joke. Maybe if you'd been in the Discord you'd get that this is how people there with eachother.
    For the umpteenth time, this is not about any joke. It's about whether or not Akar knew Commodus was not eligible to be elected a Magistrate and ignored that fact.

    You already seem pretty triggered. I could tell you to calm down. I am simply following the Constitution. Hate and insult me all you want.

    This could all be ended if Akar a) admitted his mistake or b) provided an emphatic denial or evidence to the contrary. Needless to say I won't have friends coming out of the woodwork to defend me from attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    This explains a lot! There is nothing further from the truth. it is open party where serious conversation is actively discouraged. All is welcome and no one takes anything seriously.
    The aggression of Legio and gggg give me no faith in that claim.

    Anyway, Censors are not responsible for their own actions; the Consul is.

    If the Consul still shows confidence in Akar and you do not like that, then that is the route you should take, not this one.
    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    Sounds like Pike and Legio have more knowledge of the Constitution than the prosecutor
    No, I have already responded to Pike's interpretation of things here.
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  6. #46
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    b) provided an emphatic denial or evidence to the contrary.
    You keep making claims based entirely on ignoring prior posts then claim others are doing that exact thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    I feel like I've already explained myself clearly in both of the other frivolous VonC started today, and I see no purpose in repeating myself again when the baseless allegations have yet to change. This is nothing more than a joke taken out of context and I believe my dedication to the curia and constitution are spoken for through my actions as Censor.
    So you're telling him he has to find sufficient evidence for you that he is not guilty despite your evidence that he is lacking in detail and/or validity? Last I heard we believed in innocent until proven guilty and you yourself have admitted you don't feel there is sufficient evidence to support a guilty verdict, yet you yourself are bringing the motion to put it to trial, and you're making statements implying you think they should resign before it is brought to this trial you are initiating, despite not finding sufficient evidence to even convince yourself of conviction? It sounds like you know the evidence is flimsy/non-existent and are just making this whole show to force those involved to resign by putting pressure on them and using your influence to create a narrative that'll convince others. Seriously weak behavior and I'd expect more from a citizen who claims to have such knowledge of the Constitution. Especially considering eveyrone else has made it abundantly clear you can not hold the Censor liable for their actions, and only VoNC the Consul above them.

    Edit: Also when it comes to this:

    The aggression of Legio and gggg give me no faith in that claim.
    You can't seriously be playing victim when you opened the case with this biased and loaded statement that was clearly full of aggression towards everyone in the discord:

    And yet we wish to persist with our Constitution and Officer system. Who can have any faith in this big "post" repository for Caligula's own enjoyment? Have fun about me on Discord.
    You can't lead with aggression then get offended and cry when people respond back to it with aggression. How is anyone supposed to take a motion seriously when the prosecutor has an axe to grind like that and is leading with biased statements? Get a grip, bro.
    Last edited by ggggtotalwarrior; May 18, 2020 at 12:12 AM.
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  7. #47

    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    For the umpteenth time, this is not about any joke. It's about whether or not Akar knew Commodus was not eligible to be elected a Magistrate and ignored that fact.

    You already seem pretty triggered. I could tell you to calm down. I am simply following the Constitution. Hate and insult me all you want.

    This could all be ended if Akar a) admitted his mistake or b) provided an emphatic denial or evidence to the contrary. Needless to say I won't have friends coming out of the woodwork to defend me from attacks.

    The aggression of Legio and gggg give me no faith in that claim.

    No, I have already responded to Pike's interpretation of things here.
    The only aggressiveness I see here is this VonC.

    Commodus must have known he was not eligible, he not only applied, but willing took office perpetuating a fraud. Why are we not ostrakoning him? Moreover, the Consul is the next person responsible that everything is done right, but the Consul is not being VonC. Instead, you are picking on a "servant who is the least knowledgeable of the Constitution." Oh wait, Commodus is equally new, but we seem to give him a pass anyway.
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  8. #48
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    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    You keep making claims based entirely on ignoring prior posts then claim others are doing that exact thing.

    Last I heard we believed in innocent until proven guilty and you yourself have admitted you don't feel there is sufficient evidence to support a guilty verdict, yet you yourself are bringing the motion to put it to trial, and you're making statements implying you think they should resign before it is brought to this trial you are initiating, despite not finding sufficient evidence to even convince yourself of conviction? It sounds like you know the evidence is flimsy/non-existent and are just making this whole show to force those involved to resign by putting pressure on them and using your influence to create a narrative that'll convince others. Seriously weak behavior and I'd expect more from a citizen who claims to have such knowledge of the Constitution. Especially considering eveyrone else has made it abundantly clear you can not hold the Censor liable for their actions, and only VoNC the Consul above them.
    What posts have I ignored? I am simply waiting for Akar to respond to this post. Everything since then is me responding to everyone else questioning me. I am waiting for Akar, however long it takes; nothing can change in my mind until I hear something clear from here. It should be quite obvious that his posts so far have left something to be desired with me, and I have the right to ask the question.

    "Everyone" who has made it abundantly clear that the Censor cannot be held liable and VoNC'd would be incorrect, then. They are quite clearly Curial Officers, and Curial Officers are subject to VoNCs. This was discussed in the Townhall.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Commodus must have known he was not eligible, he not only applied, but willing took office perpetuating a fraud. Why are we not ostrakoning him? Moreover, the Consul is the next person responsible that everything is done right, but the Consul is not being VonC. Instead, you are picking on a "servant who is the least knowledgeable of the Constitution." Oh wait, Commodus is equally new, but we seem to give him a pass anyway.
    Like I said, point out to me where in the Constitution the onus is on the applicant, and not on the Consul and their Censors, to vet their own eligibility. If Curial Officers aren't the ones to confirm applicants are eligible, then why do they still exist? Why not just remove those offices and let Hex or the Tribunes create the elections?

    If you want to ostrakon Commodus, or VoNC KA, go ahead. I have already explained why I am not VoNC'ing KA.

    Responding to both the claims that the VoNC is aggressive and that I am persisting with the VoNC without evidence: This is a discussion and an investigation, not a trial as gggg correctly says. So what am I doing wrong? I am simply following the process. I am not role-playing, whatever you think. I am not a prosecutor. Let it play out.
    Last edited by Frunk; May 18, 2020 at 12:26 AM. Reason: Tribunes
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  9. #49
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    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    I have pleaded guilty twice already. So I don't get why this discussion needs to keep going. Take my bling bling but #leaveakaralone
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    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    Thanks, but I'd rather hear it from Akar.
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  11. #51

    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    Like I said, point out to me where in the Constitution the onus is on the applicant, and not on the Consul and their Censors, to vet their own eligibility. If Curial Officers aren't the ones to confirm applicants are eligible, then why do they still exist? Why not just remove those offices and let Hex create the elections?

    If you want to ostrakon Commodus, or VoNC KA, go ahead. I have already explained why I am not VoNC'ing KA.

    Responding to both the claims that the VoNC is aggressive and that I am persisting with the VoNC without evidence: This is a discussion and an investigation, not a trial as gggg correctly says. So what am I doing wrong? I am simply following the process. I am not role-playing, whatever you think. I am not a prosecutor. Let it play out.
    Censors have no decision making responsibilities. It is the Consul that makes ALL of the decisions. So a decision to allow an election to move forward is on the Consul, not the Censors.
    I already quoted it to you three separate times.

    Actually, making a an accusation without evidence is libelous. It is the responsibility of the accuser to present all evidence and the Curia to decide the merits of the evidence. It is not our job to make your case for you. it is your job to make the case.
    In any event, you cannot VonC a Censor for a decision making that they have no authority to make. The Constitution is clear on that point.
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  12. #52
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    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    The evidence is in the OP, Pike, and I'll take Akar's word on whether or not it is legitimate, not yours, Cookiegod's or anyone else's. All I am waiting for is a definitive answer. So far, we've only be told that those were "jokes". I am not interested in the jokes. I am interested in whether, as implied by the evidence, Akar knew that Commodus was not eligible to be elected.

    Censors act on behalf of the Consul, yes, but to say they don't have responsibility and culpability is ludicrous. There is real-world, historical precedent that subordinates are still responsible for their actions. Whether or not KA is also responsible is not the point.

    The Constitution is not clear on that point at all; you are genuinely making it up. Curial Officers are subject to VoNC's. Censors are Curial Officers, despite not being "elected". The Constitution IS clear on both those points.
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  13. #53
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    Weird to refer to "real-world" precedent when it comes to moderating an internet forum
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  14. #54
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    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    Thanks, but I'd rather hear it from Akar.
    You do realise he already answered, and doesn't need to reply to this more than he already did. And since you so desperately need an admission of guilt, when he's already denied the allegations, this here's really an exercise of pointlessness.

    Let's assume for a second you'd go through with a VoNC and let's assume that Akar'd have to go. Then what? By both your logic and what Athel said the consul would have to resign as well. So on top of 2 open magistrates position no one seems particularly interested in, you'd need to fill 3 more seats. I don't see any willing arses to fill them with other than Athel's gang.
    All three 4 of them have been exceptionally motivated to waste their lives in the service of the TWC, and have so far performed their duties diligently with just one minor slip-up, that being blocking my citizenship application of course.
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  15. #55
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    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    Feel free to disregard it if you don't care, but I was just pointing it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    You do realise he already answered, and doesn't need to reply to this more than he already did. And since you so desperately need an admission of guilt, when he's already denied the allegations, this here's really an exercise of pointlessness.


    Let's assume for a second you'd go through with a VoNC and let's assume that Akar'd have to go. Then what? By both your logic and what Athel said the consul would have to resign as well. So on top of 2 open magistrates position no one seems particularly interested in, you'd need to fill 3 more seats. I don't see any willing arses to fill them with other than Athel's gang.
    All three 4 of them have been exceptionally motivated to waste their lives in the service of the TWC, and have so far performed their duties diligently with just one minor slip-up, that being blocking my citizenship application of course.

    Again, thanks, but I'll hear it from Akar. He posted here earlier, I replied with an amplification of my question, and I am awaiting a reply. I see no urgency in resolving this and I doubt Akar would be happy to let my question go unanswered. I know I wouldn't let allegations against me go unanswered, hence my replies to all the posts in this thread.

    Your points about who would replace them if they are removed are valid, sure. But we are just to ignore issues then? If I go banning random members, should Hex keep me on simply because there aren't other willing arses to bother moving threads and embedding YouTube videos?
    Last edited by Frunk; May 18, 2020 at 12:50 AM. Reason: Cookiegod's post.
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  16. #56
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    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    ^That's the point I've been making this whole time. What even is the motive here and what is being accomplished other than putting people off further participation with this forum because of people getting their panties in a twist over a literally un-proveable accusation? Is it in the name of "Law and Order"? What is possessing someone to go this hard on an issue like this that'll just further weaken and harm the site if not in the name of powermodding? I see it on Reddit all the time, and that's a place I spent a whole lot more of my internet time these days because if there's a powerhungry mod living off ruling an internet forum I just leave that sub. Here, if the problem is institutional and people are getting off on waging little wars for attention, that's the whole damn site's problem. As evidence right here by a user attempting to force a resignation out of other users despite a lack of any evidence just by bullying the other citizens into agreement.
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  17. #57

    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    The evidence is in the OP, Pike, and I'll take Akar's word on whether or not it is legitimate, not yours, Cookiegod's or anyone else's. All I am waiting for is a definitive answer. So far, we've only be told that those were "jokes". I am not interested in the jokes. I am interested in whether, as implied by the evidence, Akar knew that Commodus was not eligible to be elected.

    Censors act on behalf of the Consul, yes, but to say they don't have responsibility and culpability is ludicrous. There is real-world, historical precedent that subordinates are still responsible for their actions. Whether or not KA is also responsible is not the point.

    The Constitution is not clear on that point at all; you are genuinely making it up. Curial Officers are subject to VoNC's. Censors are Curial Officers, despite not being "elected". The Constitution IS clear on both those points.
    The Constitution is clear that the Censors actions falls under the responsibility of the Consul. It is the decision of the Consul on whether or not he still has confidence in the Censors. If the Consul support the Censors, then the Consul that you may VonC. A VonC does not remove a Censor from office. They are appointed. This is a point you already conceded. As I said, the Consul failed to catch that Commodus was ineligible, so he is the one liable not the censors. Censors just do busy work. They do not make any decisions. If we want Censors to be more responsible for their actions, then we need to increase their eligibility to three months to ensure they understand the Constitution. If a Censor acts inappropriately, you report it to the Consul. If the Consul gets tired of complaints, the Consul is in their remit to remove the Censor.

    Your first cause of action should have been to PM the Consul of your concerns. If you are unsatisfied with his actions or inaction, then you should VonC the Consul for allowing Censor to act inappropriately on his behalf. That would be nglifne on the part of the Consul. it is a waste of time to start a VonC against a Censor if the Consul is not willing to remove the Censor.
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  18. #58
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    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    Here's proof that as recently as two days ago he did not know what the requirements for magistrate position were:


    He told me to apply for magistrate and only after realised that one needs to be a citizen for it.

    So if he wasn't aware of that basic fact that one needs to be a citizen two days ago, how can he still have known that Commodus needed to be a citizen for two months several weeks ago?
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  19. #59
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    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    BIG OOF

    Edit: Let me guess, is discord suddenly not valid evidence?
    Last edited by ggggtotalwarrior; May 18, 2020 at 01:03 AM.
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    Oh, and this is false. As a white person, I can say that it's not possible to be racist to a white person.
    Congratulations, you just lowered my IQ by 10 points.

  20. #60
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    Default Re: [VoNC] Akar

    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    ^That's the point I've been making this whole time. What even is the motive here and what is being accomplished other than putting people off further participation with this forum because of people getting their panties in a twist over a literally un-proveable accusation? Is it in the name of "Law and Order"? What is possessing someone to go this hard on an issue like this that'll just further weaken and harm the site if not in the name of powermodding? I see it on Reddit all the time, and that's a place I spent a whole lot more of my internet time these days because if there's a powerhungry mod living off ruling an internet forum I just leave that sub. Here, if the problem is institutional and people are getting off on waging little wars for attention, that's the whole damn site's problem. As evidence right here by a user attempting to force a resignation out of other users despite a lack of any evidence just by bullying the other citizens into agreement.
    The motive here is that we have a Constitution for a reason, or we don't.

    I am not in a position of power in the Curia. I am just another Citizen.

    I have not attempted to force anyone into anything. Yes, I have implied what I would do if I were in KA's position, but I would also give myself time to investigate, either publicly or privately, and then make my decisions. That's not bullying and I don't see why you need to give me such labels when all I am doing is following the document which exists.

    It's not that I'm a stickler for the rules, it's just I don't believe in half-arsing things, or burying my head in the sand. I said we should do away with all this, but we haven't, and so I'm observing the status quo. And no, I'm not doing this to make that point; I genuinely will go with whatever the Curia decides in its majority on all issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The Constitution is clear that the Censors actions falls under the responsibility of the Consul. It is the decision of the Consul on whether or not he still has confidence in the Censors. If the Consul support the Censors, then the Consul that you may VonC. A VonC does not remove a Censor from office. They are appointed. This is a point you already conceded. As I said, the Consul failed to catch that Commodus was ineligible, so he is the one liable not the censors. Censors just do busy work. They do not make any decisions. If we want Censors to be more responsible for their actions, then we need to increase their eligibility to three months to ensure they understand the Constitution. If a Censor acts inappropriately, you report it to the Consul. If the Consul gets tired of complaints, the Consul is in their remit to remove the Censor.

    Your first cause of action should have been to PM the Consul of your concerns. If you are unsatisfied with his actions or inaction, then you should VonC the Consul for allowing Censor to act inappropriately on his behalf. That would be nglifne on the part of the Consul. it is a waste of time to start a VonC against a Censor if the Consul is not willing to remove the Censor.
    I have conceded that Censors are appointed, sure. That's obvious. I have not conceded that VoNC's don't remove them from office as that simply isn't true. Curial Officers, including Censors, are subject to VoNC's.

    Censors are already responsible enough, and I have already said that KA is perfectly capable of judging his own culpability without the need for a VoNC in his name, in my opinion.

    There is nothing in the Constitution which says other avenues must be explored before a VoNC is launched or a complaint is raised about the Censors. Again, this is all your opinion and your interpretation. It is not law. I have my own opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Here's proof that as recently as two days ago he did not know what the requirements for magistrate position were:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    He told me to apply for magistrate and only after realised that one needs to be a citizen for it.


    So if he wasn't aware of that basic fact that one needs to be a citizen two days ago, how can he still have known that Commodus needed to be a citizen for two months several weeks ago?
    He may not have known, which, as I have already said, would be a forgivable clerical error. The screenshots in the OP suggest otherwise, and I simply need Akar to reply to that implication. I will take him at his word.
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